Security Company

[hermit]

I think this is a great idea, Hermit.

Thanks,but thinking about it more and more,i think some kind of pressure group should be founded that could speak as the mouth of expats,and function as speaking partner wit police,bussinesses,provincial government,not only about security,but about everything that bothers us.
Alone you are vulnerable,while as a group we are a strong economic power that should be listened to.
Call it a pressure group,union,club,society,whatever,but some form of organisation would benefit all expats.
I will come back on it in new thread.

 

[SHoggard]

Grills

How about grills on windows & doors.... I'm thinking of the 'concertina' type that you see in shop-houses (not the steel shutters that block the air) - no property in Malaysia (expat or local) would be without them.

Of course that means:-
1. you'd have to remember to lock them every night
2. you'd effectively be imprisoning yourself - gone is the outside-inside free open living in Bali (but I'm guessing you probably feel that anyway)
3. you'd have no protection against invasion when the grills are open, ie during the day.
4. doesn't secure the perimeter but the main 'keep'

 

[biomicrobe]

Get a dog!

Preferable a Shepard, am getting 1 as we speak
I live in java, here everybody is scarred of dogs
Not in Bali(i knowm), but the 1s that break in ARE

 

[matsaleh]

Polly has four dogs... that didn't deter the robbers.

...The only one of our four dogs who tried to defend us was also hit very hard on top of her head and knocked to the ground. We thought she'd been killed. By the way, she is a large, very gentle golden retriever X standard poodle and would have thought she would be the last dog to try to protect us. We thought the male Bali dog would be the guard but the Bali dogs just kept their distance and barked.

 

[gilbert de jong]

ehm...on java they are not scared for the dog, as in their teeth, but more so for their saliva....it's haram

 

[biomicrobe]

ehm...on java they are not scared for the dog, as in their teeth, but more so for their saliva....it's haram

Oh yes they are afraid of the their teeth!
and your right they are unclean because of the religion
But most don't care about that, they are just simply scared of the dog itself

 

[spicyayam]

I am sorry to hear about your ordeal. I think employing a security guard is a good option. I am not sure how effective an electric fence would be and might only create other problems if someone accidentally touched it. Nothing is going to be 100% but I think having someone guarding your house is the best possible deterrent.

 

[sakumabali]

Oh yes they are afraid of the their teeth!
and your right they are unclean because of the religion
But most don't care about that, they are just simply scared of the dog itself

Biomicrobe your post is easy to misunderstand, maybe you could specify "they"...
I guess you mean "muslims / javanese are afraid of the dog's teeths, dogs are unclean"..etc?

 

[BKT]

Dangerous criminals like these guys aren't afraid of dogs, maybe your average 48kg Indonesian male would be but not some machete wheeling maniac with nothing to loose.

 

[spicyayam]

Dangerous criminals like these guys aren't afraid of dogs, maybe your average 48kg Indonesian male would be but not some machete wheeling maniac with nothing to loose.

You are totally right. Unless the dogs have been trained to be guard dogs, they are nothing more than an early warning system. Whether the guys are from anywhere in Indonesia, dogs aren't going to be that much of a deterent to serious robbers. I think they are after specific items like mobile phones/laptops/cash/jewelery. If they get want they want, they will probably just move on. I remember thinking after I was robbed to leave out old broken things that the robbers might be happy to have - I doubt they will know too much of a difference.

 

[CanonMan]

We've got bars on the windows, tasteful bars decorated in the shape of butterflies, ahh sweet! These close down with a small latch that I have then cable tied to the bars. All lower floor windows are permanently fixed this way. We've had builders in from Java and other places and I've seen them looking at the fittings but so far 3 years and we're lucky with no problems. I have a 3ft metal bar under the bed and a hammer hanging by the door. If ever anyone tries to get in they'll be leaving in a worse state than when they arrived.

 

[hinakos]

They dont like light.

Ace hardware sells 2 million candle power torches.

You get a faceful of that and your blind for 7-10 seconds, from 10M away.

Theres an interesting little shop across the road from central parkir.

It sells all kinds of devices for deterring people from attacking.

I have a security man. ITs $100 a month.....cheap as chips. He's related to the femaily who i leased my land off.

They have a little network in the area, all know who's coming and going, and who needs keeping an eye on. This is your best defence (as long as you treat them well, and they like you - if they dont, it can actually work against you and they can end up becoming the eyes and ears for their buddies who are breaking in)

I also have a pneumatic pellet gun which fires 450 (plastic) rounds a minute and smashes bintang beer bottles (i have 3 of them). This wont kill anyone but it certainly hurts...and it looks like the real thing. It would certailny terrify anyone who was in the process of breaking in. And it wouldnt matter if there was 4 of them...you can spray the lot of them. Leaves a little round blood welt which turns into a bruise the next day.

I figure if someone breaks in, theyre going to get 2 million candle power of dazzling light scorched intot heir retinas, followed by a burst of pellets to the body. IF they continue to advance (unlikely), the stream of fast flowing pellets gets directed to the face...then its over - not a good idea though as will will definitely take an eye out.

I dont have problems with cats coming into my place.

 

[JohnnyCool]

Guns are NOT an option

@BKT

Personally I would be looking at buying a gun.

Although I've thought about that in the past, my conclusion is that it's way too difficult (expensive and dangerous).
Nevertheless, I just spent a little time trying to update myself about current gun ownership in Indonesia.

This quote from an American website is not exactly correct, but topical:

Gun possession is illegal, period. In Indonesia, your only choice is to be a better swordsman than the mob who comes to dismember you and your family, and to have a mob of friends with you who are better at sword fighting than those who come to do you in.

What follows is bits and pieces taken from a report by The International Crisis Group
Policy Briefing Asia Briefing N°109 Jakarta/Brussels, 6 September 2010

A. CIVILIAN GUN OWNERSHIP
By official statistics, Indonesia has one of the lowest rates of civilian gun ownership in the world. Any owner of a gun other than police or military must have a police permit, signed by the national police commander. Getting a permit is a lengthy and complicated process.

Ordinary civilians between the ages of eighteen and 65 can own a gun for recreation but not self-defence, and even then, permits are only issued to members of the Indonesian Shooting and Hunting Association (Persatuan Menembak dan Berburu Indonesia, PERBAKIN) – and individuals have to be members of an authorised shooting club for a year before they can even apply.

The kinds of guns that civilians may use is also regulated by law and restricted to certain kinds of handguns and hunting rifles.

Once obtained, the gun permit has to be extended every two years, with a psychological test taken each time.

PERBAKIN maintains storage centres for guns, usually at the district police station; members who lose their guns through negligence are immediately expelled and can be prosecuted.

Granting permits for self-defence weapons was also a lucrative business for the police. While the 2004 regulations set a fee of Rp 1 million (about $100), other sources said the real cost was closer to Rp 100 million ($10,000).
The letter of recommendation from PERBAKIN alone cost Rp 50 million ($5,000). Procedures are also set forth under Surat Keputusan Kapolri No. Pol: Skep/82/II/2004.
As of August 2010, permits for 17,983 guns, most of which are probably pistols, had lapsed and there was little hope of ever recovering the weapons. Until a spate of major robberies occurred in mid-2010, few Indonesians would have suggested that the police put tracking down the owners very high on their list of priorities.

My understanding is that owning an illegal gun here comes with life prison sentence.
(And there are other conditions which have to met by "Security Guards" to carry arms.)

 

[hinakos]

pellet guns come under this law? air guns? they are sold openly.

 

[gilbert de jong]

they are bought and sold with an importlicense...way of getting around some laws
If you mean the 4,5 pellets are exempt of licensing, but the 5 and 6mm one should apply for a license at your local kapolda.
and one should be a member of a shootingclub. Usually the people who sell these kind of airguns also supply the necessary paperwork.

as for the illegality of real guns in Indonesia...simply not true.
it's hard to get a license, but not impossible and doesn't need to be a expensive.
certainly not 50jt just for an letter from the Perbakin...the mentioned 100jt in the article comes close to having all the paperwork and an actual small kaliber gun .22
If one has the license and the gun, one can store the weapon at the Perbakin (shootingrange) or apply for another separate license with the Kapolda,
this license allows you to carry/bring the gun home.

 

[pollyanna]

Firstly, thanks to each of you who sent thoughts and good wishes to us. It really means a lot at a time like this when we are feeling vulnerable (but getting better daily) to have the support of BaliPodders, friends, and neighbours.

Hermit, I think your idea is excellent. So do the men in my family. The police have also said pictures should be taken of anyone who comes here to work. The Bear and Wayan agree.

As Hermit suggests, if this were done island wide without exception I expect it would be a strong deterrent to those who come to Bali with criminal intent.

The two men who attacked and robbed us were almost certainly from a village in East Java. The man in Bali who hired them is devastated by what happened and is doing all he possibly can to help capture them. Believe it or not, we had to pay the police to go to East Java to arrest the men. The suspects escaped while surrounded by four policemen so they still haven't been caught. If we can believe the police they say the village is dangerous even for the police to enter. Thievery is taught throughout the village to children from a young age and even the village religious leader condones this practice. They say the suspects are being hidden and protected. The police did return to Bali with one man's identity card and a photo of him but not any of our goods and no arrests.

We've had suggestions for prevention and deterrents and are waiting for a proposal from a large security company. I'll post any information that seems like it might be useful to others and also let everyone know what we ultimately do.

 

[JohnnyCool]

@pollyanna
What a truly disgusting and traumatic experience for you.

Presumably, the man in Bali who hired the alleged East Javanese mongrels pointed the finger at that "village of thieves".

Believe it or not, we had to pay the police to go to East Java to arrest the men. The suspects escaped while surrounded by four policemen so they still haven't been caught.
If we can believe the police they say the village is dangerous even for the police to enter.

Call me cynical, if you like, but I doubt the police went there at all. Maybe just pocketed whatever you paid them and that's it for the moment.

And if this "village x" is so well-known, (and feared), why is it still operating? If anybody, I thought the police are licensed to carry guns. Oh - sometimes they may not have bullets (maybe have to buy them themselves).

Did you recognise the man in the photo, supposedly brought back from Java? How did the police manage to get his ID card and photo in the first place if they're too frightened to enter the village?

Doesn't quite add up for me.

I wish you all the very best in getting your stolen stuff back, that the police do eventually capture the criminals, and most importantly, that you rapidly recover from your ordeal.

 

[JohnnyCool]

@gilbert

...as for the illegality of real guns in Indonesia...simply not true.

Not sure what you mean by that.

I agree that "real guns" can be licensed by individuals for certain purposes; (not "impossible", as you point out, but also not as easy as you seem to suggest, unless you just want to shoot at birds, cats, etc.)
Having a licensed gun for firing on a shooting range is one thing. Bringing it home and maybe using it in "self defense", is quite another.

Having an illegal gun can lead to "life imprisonment", (maybe 6 months or so if you're Indonesian, 20 years if you're not).

@hinakos
The following is from the article I referenced above. Hope it helps.

IV. PELLET RIFLES AND HOMEMADE GUNS
One important category of weapons in Indonesia are homemade guns which can be legal but often are not. The legal variety are air rifles, used for hunting, especially shooting birds, that fire 4.5mm pellets. These are different from the airsoft variety; they are stronger and designed for practical use. They fall under the 2004 regulations for recreational shooting and must be registered accordingly.

Though made in Indonesia, they frequently carry foreign trademarks, such as Diana, Benjamin or BSD; there are also local brands, including Canon and SD. Producers say the foreign trademarks draw a higher price.

The illegal variety can be crude contraptions (rakitan) made out of necessity by criminals, insurgents or other combatants. In Poso, central Sulawesi where intense communal conflict raged between 1998 and 2001, home-made guns were used by both sides. In early 2010, Central Sulawesi police held a ceremony to destroy guns seized in recent years that had been used in the fighting.
In the mix were 381 homemade shoulder arms, 75 homemade handguns, 25 homemade firecrackers and only nine factory-made weapons.

But homemade guns can also be carefully-made replicas of pistols, made by the same skilled gunsmiths that make the air rifles. Some of these so closely resemble the real model that police and soldiers in need of money have been known to sell their government-issue gun for a fake replacement complete with serial number, and no one is the wiser.

 

[hinakos]

ta johnny and gilbert, im in the clear - its an airsoft i think, plastic pellets.

hope things get better for you Polly.

 

[gilbert de jong]

@JC...
what I meant was a response to the highlighted part in your post , some american website stated that "gun possesion is illegal in Indonesia, period."
my response to that " that's not true"
If someone would want to shoot cats or dogs or birds an airsoft would be a better choice, instead of a .22 handgun or rifle.

I can go into detail about how to obtain a license to own a gun (.22 and up) and the license that allows you to bring it home (even as a foreigner),
but I don't think it's a solution for polly and her family. Although owning a 12Gauge would qualify as major home/selfprotection device :icon_wink:

@hinakos...
I am not sure, but I think the airsoft that you own loads the 6mm pellets and not the 4,5mm...the air rifles have a lower impact strength (cocked by hand), compared to the airsoftguns wich
use CO2 :icon_smile:

@polly....
this is pure speculation on my part, but I think the police got paid at the other end as well...
different case as an example (true story), a guy's home was raided...drugs were found...guy gets word and flees to Java...lawyer starts negotiating on the price for the evidence and case to dissapear..price set, and paid..guy came back to Bali...now guy makes a monthly contribution for the 'stay out of jail' card and dealing of drugs continues..
now the police of DPS has no jurisdiction on Java, strange but true...so they would have contacted the police in the region where the suspects were residing..these cops get paid, and
'report' back to the DPS police...can't find them or yeah we had them surrounded, but they escaped..without saying, they paid X amount and gave us a KTP and foto so we had something
to send to DPS.
I know, it's sounds so evil of me to think this way, but based on my example...I can somehow see that this is what happened.
Personally I wouldn't know how I would cope if I was caught offguard as you guys were...Stuff is just that, Stuff...and is replace-able.
The personal injury, physical and maybe mental is a different story. So I wish you all the best (also the dog) and hope you all had somewhat of a enjoyable Xmas together.