Expat set up in drug case while being embroiled in land dispute.
Smoke you are getting more and more Zen (or completely fecking demented) as time goes on. I have no idea what you are trying to say. I think you are just repeating what I said before....or?
But what do I know?
I have not met Susi for at least 8 or 10 years, so I certainly do not have any privileged information about this case. All I know about Susi is that she is an honest, intelligent, and generous person. Yes, we have only heard her side of the story, and there are always two sides to any story. As for the Indonesian laws and their “applications,” it’s way above my head (and my interest). So, why isn’t Tety Carolina presenting her side of the story? So far, she has only manifested herself in the persons of thugs who ransacked Susi’s house, no once but three times, roughed her up, threaten her, so much so that the corrupt system has been forced to have her put under police protection 24/7, for the last 600+ days, by no less than 6 police officers! (at taxpayers’ expenses). These are PUBLIC facts, not her side of the story. And personally, having lived in Bali, on and off, for more than 20 years, I would have left 600 days ago, but I’m a coward and Susi has remarkable courage. Would you have stayed? Would any of the people of this forum criticizing her have stayed? I’ll bet my bottom dollar that we ALL would have run, as many, in similar circumstances have done before (I could name at least two such persons who used to live in the Ubud area).
By the way, no, Susi did not want to substitute “nominees,” as you stated, she just filed for Hak Pakai, and this is when the doodoo hit the fan…
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I tend to agree with you completely Tin no intelligent or honest person would stay around for this kind of persecution.
"All I know about Susi is that she is an honest, intelligent, and generous person."
That leads directly to the only conclusion possible - either the PUBLIC information isn't correct or Susi isn't the above...
Strange reasoning, there. An honest person would be revolted by this crooked situation and choose to stand up and fight for justice to prevail. An intelligent person would know the odds are against him/her, especially in a place like Indonesia, and would have taken the first flight available. I guess the honest person overcame the intelligent one. By the way, Bali is her HOME for twenty years.
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Come on, davida, you did not just fell off the turnip truck. You know very well that in real life, in everyday real Bali, in a transactions with a bule, a 'nominee' is most likely NOT the original owner: in Brooklyn parlance, he/she is known as a "fence." If you don't know, let me inform you that there is a beautiful bridge for sale in New York, the Brooklyn Bridge: just contact my friend Guido, he'll set up the paper work for the transaction.:icon_cool:
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Jeez Tin we were going along sooo well there and then you went and proved you have absofeckinglutely no idea what you are talking about.
The "nominee" is the fella with his name on the land deed certificate as owner - hence we call him "The Owner".
Ask nursey to explain it after she puts away your keyboard and before she gets the warm milk and biscuits.
Hi chinchin...ther's no need to characterize me, or from where I came, nor what I know in real life. Your post changes nothing to what I said.
I repeat....no matter the status of the nominee....the person whose name is on the Sertifikat is, by law, the owner.
If someone intends to buy property in Indonesia and is not aware of this....then they are the one's your friend Guido should be calling
P
paulseawind
Guest
My documentation agrees with you, davita
The name on my Setifikat and the name on my IMB is the name of the nominee I use
It's interesting to read these posts because, otherwise, I wouldn't really know about these type of things
In the case of my property, I was wondering 'how' this particular person came to be nominee (also "owner")
This is what I have surmised
Originally, the land had an owner who decided to sell to the next person (who was not Indonesian)
A 'new' Indonesian needed to become involved
So, one was found and conscripted and paid to be the Nominee and the purchase made by the foreigner was assigned to the Indonesian's name - that's how he became the owner
And there were a series of 'side contracts' that secures the financial benefit of the property to the foreigner
When the foreigner wants out, this same nominee style just gets invoked for a new foreign name, either with the same nominee or another one
That's my understanding - is it correct?
Also, I have been told that a Nominee can only be a nominee for so much land
Once the maximum size has been reached, that Indonesian can not become a nominee for any more property
And the 'land quota' for the Indonesian differs from person to person according to some status system that I know zip about
Is that also correct? It's what I have been told
These points have been debated here and other forums and many other places.....I'm sure...ad infinitum.
Mi information is about Hak Milik title...
1. This is the normal way the nominee structure is set-up. An Indonesian National (could even be the pool-man in the case of a friend of ours) is the titled owner.
2. A contract is just a contract...it will have legal implications in terms of the contract but it cannot circumvent the ownership.
3. Any sale will have to be signed-off by the nominee as he/she is the titled owner...whatever other arrangement is made is between the seller/buyer and nominee.
4. I've no idea about this 'rule'.
One summary about the "nominee way" : the person who got his name on the certificate has the upper hand.
Most of the people do accept this fact because everyone knows foreign ownership over property is still generally unaccepted by the current law
Knowing that you have to use someone's name instead of your own already tells the bottom line from the beginning in my opinion
Most of the people do accept this fact because everyone knows foreign ownership over property is still generally unaccepted by the current law
Knowing that you have to use someone's name instead of your own already tells the bottom line from the beginning in my opinion
I guess I got carried away with my statement, “ The name of a "nominee" in the land certificate is not valid and has no legal force. Thus, officially, a "nominee" does not have any rights over the land.” Yes, “legally” the nominee owns the land, but it’s “legally” only like many of the laws are in Indonesia. You know very well that’s in reality the nominee is just a “fence,” and all the bule who use this scheme are aware of it. I am sure that in a REAL court of law, a good lawyer could show the “nominee” system for what it is: a loophole.
To reiterate for the last time, in Susi’s case, Tety Carolina got too greedy. Bruno and Susi had started the Hak Pakai process, and when Bruno Piazza died, Tety saw an opportunity to get that piece of land for free, by trying to scare Susi in abandoning the property. However, Susi was the wrong girl.
As no.idea said “The big danger is if/when the nominee wins. The whole nominee system will then fall apart. Using the case of Susi as a landmark, all nominees could start kicking westerners out of their houses.
This is actually a very important event.”
In my opinion, eventually Susi will obtain a Hak Pakai for this property, which of course would take precedent over any other title. So, Carolina will be out of the loop, and the "nominee" scheme will still be preserved.
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Also for the last time Hak Pakai is a lease agreement that the leasee has with the owner of the property.
Again this is a question I asked Susi before my post was deleted: If she and Bruno where changing their property situation from Hak Milik to Hak Pakai this really doesn't change anything in terms of the previous "owner" or "nominee" who you say (Tintin) is someone called Tety.
Presuming this is all correct so far:
Tety was the previous "nominee" or owner under the Hak Milik agreement and Susi and Bruno built and lived in their house in connubial bliss until Bruno pegged out middle in the change from Milik to Pakai. Then the problems for Susi (stricken with grief) start to happen.
Who was then the "owner" i.e. whose name was on the certificate?
If it was still Tety then even if Susi (sans Bruno) now has a Hak Pakai (lease) agreement, who is it with? A "new" nominee? With Tety?
If a new nominee (not Tety) is now the Hak Milik owner of Susi's property and Susi now has a Hak Pakai agreement with this new owner then why all the stress directed at Susi - she doesn't own sheet? She has a lease agreement which is fully enforceable by a Bule in Indonesian law.
But what do I know?
Again this is a question I asked Susi before my post was deleted: If she and Bruno where changing their property situation from Hak Milik to Hak Pakai this really doesn't change anything in terms of the previous "owner" or "nominee" who you say (Tintin) is someone called Tety.
Presuming this is all correct so far:
Tety was the previous "nominee" or owner under the Hak Milik agreement and Susi and Bruno built and lived in their house in connubial bliss until Bruno pegged out middle in the change from Milik to Pakai. Then the problems for Susi (stricken with grief) start to happen.
Who was then the "owner" i.e. whose name was on the certificate?
If it was still Tety then even if Susi (sans Bruno) now has a Hak Pakai (lease) agreement, who is it with? A "new" nominee? With Tety?
If a new nominee (not Tety) is now the Hak Milik owner of Susi's property and Susi now has a Hak Pakai agreement with this new owner then why all the stress directed at Susi - she doesn't own sheet? She has a lease agreement which is fully enforceable by a Bule in Indonesian law.
But what do I know?
#54 As a work of fantasy driven fiction that is pretty good.
I can just see a 'good lawyer' standing in court trying to alter Indonesian Law in favour of anyone but Indonesian citizens and proving that an existing Indonesian Law, duly passed, ratified and enforced by the Indonesian legal system has 'loopholes' and the authorities preparing to change that Law to suit foreigners.
I can even hear the opening dialogue now "Oh look Toto, its the Emerald City"
I can just see a 'good lawyer' standing in court trying to alter Indonesian Law in favour of anyone but Indonesian citizens and proving that an existing Indonesian Law, duly passed, ratified and enforced by the Indonesian legal system has 'loopholes' and the authorities preparing to change that Law to suit foreigners.
I can even hear the opening dialogue now "Oh look Toto, its the Emerald City"
If 'by REAL court' you mean any western type jurisdiction, there would not be any case to hear. Judges only listen to disputes and the ownership of the property is not in dispute.
Any contract, arrangement or understanding between the 'titled owner' and the person who arranged such may be disputed in court, whether Indonesia or anywhere else. That dispute could legally interpret the wordage used by the lawyer/notary drawing up such documents.
There is no 'nominee scheme' in RI that is any different to anywhere else in the world. The same could occur in Boston, Vancouver or London. If someone wishes to buy property/goods etc. but, for ANY reason cannot...they can ask someone else, so qualified, to purchase on their behalf with an understanding. That REALITY is called TRUST.
Re: your post No. 32 regarding paulseawind....quote "You've probably deserved "far worse", but, being usually a polite and considerate person, @sshole is the mildest adjective I could find."
I don't know PSW personally so cannot comment but, what I do know is....@sshole is a noun...it is not an adjective.
How do you know the nominee had been changed? She has written about the case here and it doesn't sound the nominee had ever changed: Bali expat set up in drug case [Archive] - Living In Indonesia Expat Forum
It sounds like the case is in the courts and she has lost the first two decisions and it is now in the supreme court.