Is it really necessary

[davita]

Davita, are you sure that a WNI who owns land hak milik keeps her right to own the land even after marriage to a WNA without a prenup? My understanding is to the contrary.

Ok understood,but a bit confusing,,i thought that if there is no pre-nup that the indo wife cannot own property,i was of the opinion that the pre-nup was something done by couples so that the indo partner doesn`t lose their right to owning anything,

We don't know the circumstance of the ownership in this case...but....
If the WNI spouse inherited the property, inheritance is NOT included as joint property and therefore, even if one spouse is WNA.....doesn't matter.
If the WNI spouse of a mixed marriage purchased the property prior to marriage, it is presumed to be disposed within one year, but who would know...never heard of a situation where this has been tested in law.
If a mixed couple had a pre-nup....any Hak Milik property bought after marriage would lawfully be 100% owned by the WNI. This would be the same if a WNI married another WNI.
The pre-nup idea, as far as foreigners marrying Indonesians is concerned, is primarily to permit the WNI spouse to buy Hak Milik property titled to them. Therefore NOT subject to joint property Marriage Law and the Agrarian Law of WNA's not permitted to own Hak Milik.

In the case of the ozzie and his wife, the wife agreed to split 50/50 so why would she implicate herself in the alleged violence....doesn't make sense.

But that's pure speculation...I really don't know anything about it.

 

[odez999]

To cut the long story short ... Basically ... If you come to Indonesia ... oh boy .. you asked for it
With or without medical insurance ... "insurance" ...
"operation" RI "sucessful" patient(s) dead ...

But i Think in simmilar country like Thailand they managed to fix this basic medical insurance and education in 4 year mandate .. .Shinawatra etc .. I do not want even to mention Singapore or Malyasia .. it is class for itself (out of Indo league unfortunatley)

So yes it is possible. I just dont think that majority of local people knows how 2 basic fundaments of society (health & education) is important for everyone (as collective, nation and solely for each individual per se )...
They are wasting money on MRT, subsiding gasoline, and whatnot while eldery people dieing like flies on the hospital doorsteps (and youth too) ...

Wrong on so many levels ...

 

[Markit]

If and Indonesian woman marries a westerner does she take the westerner's name as per western tradition or keep her old "maiden" name? If there is a change of name is it reflected on her KTP?

 

[geedee]

If and Indonesian woman marries a westerner does she take the westerner's name as per western tradition or keep her old "maiden" name? If there is a change of name is it reflected on her KTP?

My wife changed her name as did her sister.
I told her dont bother as too much hassle which seemed to annoy her and she was pretty persistent

 

[Markit]

Unfortunately that really doesn't answer my question. Did she want to or have to? Could she have kept her old Indonesian maiden name?

See what I'm trying to tie down is if the Indonesian wife doesn't have to tell the authorities she's even married to a Bule why all the stress with pre-nupes and such like?

 

[Mark]

Unfortunately that really doesn't answer my question. Did she want to or have to? Could she have kept her old Indonesian maiden name?

See what I'm trying to tie down is if the Indonesian wife doesn't have to tell the authorities she's even married to a Bule why all the stress with pre-nupes and such like?

Markit, to answer your questions, yes there are many Indonesian women married to bules who do not inform the Indonesian authorities. They often take a passport from their husband's country while also keeping their Indo passport (which is illegal under Indo law), and also do not register their marriage in Indonesia, thereby avoiding having to change their KTP status to married (also illegal). The downsides would include the fact that both spouses would not be entitled under Indo law to inherit anything from each other (as they are not married), and any children would be viewed as illegitimate by the Indo authorities (so no rights under Indo law, including inheritance, and no passport). Also, the bule husband would not be entitled to get a KITAS or KITAP from the non-existent wife's sponsorship, and the non-compliant Indonesian could no doubt get into unpleasant trouble with the authorities in the possible, albeit unlikely, event the deception was revealed. Under these circumstances, a pre-nup costing a few juta Rp would seem to be the least stressful option...

Also, as far as I know (and have experienced) there is no hard and fast rule on changing names once married. Some women keep their family surnames, others adopt the husband's.

 

[Markit]

Markit, to answer your questions, yes there are many Indonesian women married to bules who do not inform the Indonesian authorities. They often take a passport from their husband's country while also keeping their Indo passport (which is illegal under Indo law), and also do not register their marriage in Indonesia, thereby avoiding having to change their KTP status to married (also illegal). The downsides would include the fact that both spouses would not be entitled under Indo law to inherit anything from each other (as they are not married) In this situation I can't really see a downside here as without the prenup or telling the authorities about the wedding the bride would be full owner of any land in Indo, at least as nominee, and since they were officially married in the west she would have full inheritance in the west as would any children of the marriage, and any children would be viewed as illegitimate by the Indo authorities (so no rights under Indo law, including inheritance, and no passport). Also, the bule husband would not be entitled to get a KITAS or KITAP from the non-existent wife's sponsorship, and the non-compliant Indonesian could no doubt get into unpleasant trouble with the authorities in the possible, albeit unlikely, event the deception was revealed. Under these circumstances, a pre-nup costing a few juta Rp would seem to be the least stressful option... Many mixed couples wed here without a prenup - in my vague understanding, it is only recommended in case the couple wish to own jointly a property and that would only come up at the notary office? I'm still a bit vague on what the prenup is supposed to do other than stipulate property ownership/separation of same of land bought prior to the marriage?

Also, as far as I know (and have experienced) there is no hard and fast rule on changing names once married. Some women keep their family surnames, others adopt the husband's.

Please tell me where I'm wrong:

Mixed couple marry here and in the west (say England) legally having first made a pre-nuptual contract with the notary here - all signed and dated correctly.

Neither one of the couple owns property here

Couple live happily here or there for a time, have a son together.

Then decide to own property here which they buy having the notary list both of the married pair on the certificate of land purchase.

First Case: She gets hit my a meteor and decapitated - Westerner is sole owner of property and has 365 days to sell it or can it can be given to their shared underage son?

Second Case: He gets killed by Bali Belly after attending No.idea's cooking school - she inherits the works.

If she had not told the authorities about the marriage but they had bought the property using her as nominee - she would own the property in the case of his death anyway and in the case of hers it would go to her (and his) son, also anyway as her legal heir - or would it go to her father/brother/mother/sister to control till son is old enough?

 

[Mark]

Please tell me where I'm wrong:

Mixed couple marry here and in the west (say England) legally having first made a pre-nuptual contract with the notary here - all signed and dated correctly.

Neither one of the couple owns property here

Couple live happily here or there for a time, have a son together.

Then decide to own property here which they buy having the notary list both of the married pair on the certificate of land purchase.

First Case: She gets hit my a meteor and decapitated - Westerner is sole owner of property and has 365 days to sell it or can it can be given to their shared underage son?

Second Case: He gets killed by Bali Belly after attending No.idea's cooking school - she inherits the works.

If she had not told the authorities about the marriage but they had bought the property using her as nominee - she would own the property in the case of his death anyway and in the case of hers it would go to her (and his) son, also anyway as her legal heir - or would it go to her father/brother/mother/sister to control till son is old enough?

Markit these are obviously complicated issues/scenarios requiring input from an experienced lawyer. Also, as each case is likely to have a different set of facts and circumstances, anyone pretending to 'become informed' or make decisions from an internet discussion on the matter would be a fool. So what's the point? Foreigners can't legally own land in Indonesia. There are no legal workarounds...

 

[Markit]

Markit these are obviously complicated issues/scenarios requiring input from an experienced lawyer.In reality they don't exist here - there's lots that will tell you they have experience but in truth it's not something that comes up often, if ever, because most people have a work-around like I've described.

Also, as each case is likely to have a different set of facts and circumstances, anyone pretending to 'become informed' or make decisions from an internet discussion on the matter would be a fool. Mark you need to understand that Indonesia is nothing at all like Singapore (thankfully) and that law here is a moving target and open to masses of interpretation - that being said it behooves anyone that is attempting to resolve an issue in one of the many gray areas to have alternative arguments/options - it really doesn't matter if it's printed in black and white but how it's interpreted by the legal-begal (judge or bureaucrat) and always remember "where no accusation, no judge needed". I've profited often in the past here by knowing some useless information which I learned about by asking stupid questions on this very forum.

If you find this foolish then welcome to expat life!


So what's the point? Foreigners can't legally own land in Indonesia. There are no legal workarounds... Ya really think?

Time you spent some quality time in Indonesia and left all the "smiley, happy, shiny people" in Singapore where they belong. Beer is cheaper here too.

 

[Mark]

Time you spent some quality time in Indonesia and left all the "smiley, happy, shiny people" in Singapore where they belong. Beer is cheaper here too.

For f's sake Markit, the red ink is giving me a headache... In any case, to your points: 1) there are many good lawyers in Indonesia, not sure about about Karangasem but definitely in Jakarta (have used them for several business deals); 2) I never mentioned anything about Singapore so miss your point - in any case, the laws in Indonesia are not necessarily the moving target, however the interpretation and enforcement (or lack thereof) of said laws is; 3) I've been an expat for the past 25 years so no need to get into a pissing contest about 'expat life'; 4) Anyone trying a grey area workaround is obviously in the 'grey area' and subject to a shake down if and when a government official decides to take interest.

Always happy to spend more time in Indonesia and of course enjoy the cheaper beer.

Whew, I need to lie down now...

 

[Markit]

For f's sake Markit, the red ink is giving me a headache...Sorry In any case, to your points: 1) there are many good lawyers in Indonesia, not sure about about Karangasem but definitely in Jakarta (have used them for several business deals);Business law and criminal law are slightly different, even here - but maybe that's down to your "business deals"? 2) I never mentioned anything about Singapore so miss your pointNext to your picture it lists your location as Singapore - perhaps that's why? - in any case, the laws in Indonesia are not necessarily the moving target, however the interpretation and enforcement (or lack thereof) of said laws is; 3)So do you disagree or not? I've been an expat for the past 25 years so no need to get into a pissing contest about 'expat life';No pissing intended or necessary 4) Anyone trying a grey area workaround is obviously in the 'grey area' and subject to a shake down if and when a government official decides to take interest. Being in Indo puts everyone "subject to a shake down" the only difference between the tourist and the expat is we should know the price.

Always happy to spend more time in Indonesia and of course enjoy the cheaper beer.

Whew, I need to lie down now...

Mimpi Manis

 

[spicyayam]

If and Indonesian woman marries a westerner does she take the westerner's name as per western tradition or keep her old "maiden" name? If there is a change of name is it reflected on her KTP?

My wife kept her maiden name. I thought it would scream "bule husband" if she changed her name and then people would try to charge her double for everything. The obvious reason for registering the marriage is for visas and for our kids, birth certificates etc.

 

[Markit]

My wife kept her maiden name. I thought it would scream "bule husband" if she changed her name and then people would try to charge her double for everything. The obvious reason for registering the marriage is for visas and for our kids, birth certificates etc.

This all gets wonderfully messy, very quickly, doesn't it?

What last name do your children have?

If yours, won't that "scream" bule?

If hers, how can you ever prove they are yours in a western country (using their passports)?

If your wife kept her name how would she visit you in hospital if you were seriously ill in Oz?

If you now bought land together would your name AND hers be on the certificate? or just yours? or just hers?

If both names, wouldn't that look like a nominee agreement?

I could go on...

 

[SamD]

My wife took my name but didn't have to give up her surname to do it. She doesn't have one because she is Balinese. It caused some problems with ignorant Australian government agents in the early days. The registrar of births didn't have a problem with it but Qld Department of Transport just couldn't handle it at all. And try opening a bank account in Australia without a surname. Now her life is complete and she has a lovely, brand new surname to play with.

 

[geedee]

My wife took my name but didn't have to give up her surname to do it. She doesn't have one because she is Balinese. It caused some problems with ignorant Australian government agents in the early days. The registrar of births didn't have a problem with it but Qld Department of Transport just couldn't handle it at all. And try opening a bank account in Australia without a surname. Now her life is complete and she has a lovely, brand new surname to play with.

Exact same problems Sam even although she had surname NSW driving license was the worst
If i remember correct we had to go to Indonesian consulate for a letter verifying documents were correct
I think it had to do with the letters in her Surname which Govt changed eg similar situation with the Y and J in Jogjakarta
and also she has the title Raden and the front of her name on her Indonesian license
Was a nightmare

 

[hecta]

hmm messy, my fiancé is going for the hyphen ie both surnames.:indecisiveness:

 

[SamD]

Our problems with Qld Transport ended up in the courts, that's how bad it got. The terms of the settlement mean I am not allowed to say what a bunch of racist c**ts they are.

 

[Fred2]

My wife has only one name(not bitch) she has had a QLD, NT drivers licence Medicare, Tax No, Centrelink No, Bank accounts, electricity account, with very little problems.
If you buy land your wife has to show her KTP if it has married on it she has to show her husband KTP, that were you run into problems.

 

[davita]

If you buy land your wife has to show her KTP if it has married on it she has to show her husband KTP, that were you run into problems.

That's a very good point Fred2.
My wife's friend changed her surname on her KTP when she married and a notary refused to notarise a transfer of Hak Milik land because, obviously, she was married to a foreigner.

 

[Markit]

If you buy land your wife has to show her KTP if it has married on it she has to show her husband KTP, that were you run into problems.

Just playing the idea out Fred, if your wife (with "married" listed on her KTP and has not changed her original Indonesian name to match her Bule husband's) were to bring a KTP from any other Balinese married man how would anyone know they were NOT married to each other? Since people here do not share a family name.