spicyayam

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Jan 12, 2009
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It would be interesting to hear people's thoughts on this article:

Many Expats in Bali and Lombok where unsettled and frightened by the prospect to be possibly subject to legal proceedings and/or maybe even losing their investment following the Minister’s statement. I would like to say: The dust has settled,- maybe for good?

Because since the initial statement, legal experts in Indonesia and overseas, as well as the Indonesian Government, had time to think –and we haven’t heard anything from them since. It is indeed fair to assume that the Ministry of Agraria is in detail considering the implications of the proposed action, because -
  1. They might have realized that the private investor mood would be seriously hit. There are more than just a handful of foreigners operating substantial businesses here, almost all of them established and living on private property too.
  2. Next, how to go about finding out which properties, registered under Indonesian names would in fact be related to foreigner’s interest? Would Notaries be summoned to disclose any Nominee agreement ever made? This seems highly improbable and in any case would lead to an administrative nightmare and a legal disaster, because the net would have big holes due to the nature of things being frequently (mis)-organized.
  3. Furthermore we heard that the Indonesian law does not provide a legal base to criminalize the involved parties. (read more in the following comments).
  4. Finally, the Minister was softening up his strong position by saying that everyone has a chance to rectify their legal situation, before any Government action will be taken. There was talk of a grace period of 18 month, leading to mid 2016.
I remember that in 2009 there was a similar announcement made by the Indonesian Land Department, albeit more mild in the wording, but meaning the same: Foreigners are not allowed to own or control freehold property in Indonesia, and have to stop at once trying to circumvent the law. - Then for the following 5 years nothing was heard again.

However, this time around it could be different. The new ministers were selected by President Jokowi for their active and successful roles in past professions or organizations. Also the stronger nationalist factions may insist on pushing the move ahead, which then may well grind to a halt, due to political differences.

In order to find out what our clients and in general foreign investors have to expect, I made in March an appointment for April with the office of the Secretary of the Minister of Agraria, Ferry Mursyidian Baldan, to clarify things there in Jakarta.

The idea was to understand what is in the Governmental pipeline and at the same time to ask about when to receive clarification on several issues, e.g. the Governments intentions after 70 years of Hak Pakai ownership have passed (at present the law is silent on this) and to raise awareness of the challenges to the Government should there be a ’go ahead’ in following up on nominee agreements in order to restore lands back to the state.

On seconds thoughts I later cancelled the visit.
The reason: If the dust may have settled for good, why risk waking the dogs?
Too many foreigners interest are at stake. No dust cloud.
My promise to you: As soon as we hear anyone (Government, Notaries, Chamber of Solicitors, etc.) talking about any new related development, you’ll be the first to know by email.

Following I picked up some interesting opinions on the issue. Some comments have been cut short, but again, this is not about offering new facts, this is about keeping us all on our toes and remind you to look out for news (if any).

Source: https://www.ubudproperty.com

Yes, the author is a property agent, but it is interesting there has been no further updates from the government about this issue, since it was first raised in March this year:

https://balipod.com/forum/threads/crackdown-on-foreigners-buying-property-in-bali-and-lombok.10826/
 
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davita

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Mar 13, 2012
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Thanks for the update info spicy ...please keep em cummin.

As far as the realtor's article is concerned....I hope he's right...otherwise, he may be wrong...:confused:
 

Markit

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Sep 3, 2007
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I met Roman about 7 years ago and found him to be a reasonable and intelligent man. He charged everyone that wanted to go out and look at property 80k for the pleasure. His point being that most people just wanted a free tour of the Ubud area and weren't interested in the least in property - I'm sure he was and is right.

The guiding light I take from his present article is that he wanted to talk to the minister about the whole situation and then decided not to.

Mission accomplished?

What was the mission again?

What is the article about?

Did we learn anything of substance?

Feck no!
 

mugwump

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Mar 15, 2011
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seattle pekutatan
Well just maybe we can't be too contrite about all this. The real estate guy was probably smart about messing with the sleeping dogs. After all we have (as long timers) seen things be boldly pronounced only to decay after the immediate explosion. On the other hand can we be oblivious to the emerging presence of certain rebellious organizations in our midst and the facts of growing native populations without there being any repercussions?
 

Markit

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Sep 3, 2007
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Muggy did you really mean "contrite"? Think not.

If the well being of all those "owners" out there depends upon the minister not remembering what he was gung ho about a couple of weeks ago then it's all pretty grim dontcha think?

I have almost no respect for the voices of Law in this country anyway. I have also not yet seen a single positive thing come out this "new" government to date. Anything that might shed some positive light on this murky subject would be very welcome, from me, at least.

Go gettum Ramon!
 

Mark

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Apr 19, 2004
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Foreigners can't own property in Indonesia and nominee structures are most likely illegal if it came to a court hearing, however it would not be surprising that despite the tough talk, the government just doesn't have the energy or the means to follow up on their threats. It would be a complicated, messy and expensive task and there is much more low hanging fruit out there which gets the voters frothing with support, like shooting foreign drug dealers.
 

mugwump

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Mar 15, 2011
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I stand corrected.

Muggy did you really mean "contrite"? Think not.

If the well being of all those "owners" out there depends upon the minister not remembering what he was gung ho about a couple of weeks ago then it's all pretty grim dontcha think?

I have almost no respect for the voices of Law in this country anyway. I have also not yet seen a single positive thing come out this "new" government to date. Anything that might shed some positive light on this murky subject would be very welcome, from me, at least.

Go gettum Ramon!
You are so right. I should have said dismissive. Regardless of the guy's bias as a real estate person, he was probably smart to not pursue what may otherwise not be necessary. Hopefully I read the legal (albeit foreign) analysis correctly and certainly follow the rational thought presented. Whether rational thought has any meaning in Indonesia is a far different matter.
 

davita

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Mar 13, 2012
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Tomorrow 24 June there is a 2nd hearing of a court challenge to the law that says Indonesian citizens lose their rights to own freehold land just because they married a foreigner. There is an advocacy group arguing this case to challenge the law based on discrimination....wait and see...

Link...https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/06/18/laws-unfair-spouses-foreigners.html

I cannot find any info from the hearing today as my Indonesian sux...would appreciate if any member gets info ...please post.
 
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Mark

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Apr 19, 2004
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The decision will be interesting, and relevant to those who are in mixed marriages though not to the other foreigners who use nominee structures. I can't imagine the court being able to reconcile the marriage laws (50/50 ownership) with the agrarian laws (only Indonesians can own land). My bet is that they punt and say that mixed marriage couples can avail of a prenuptial agreement to preserve the WNI's right to own land, thus reaffirming that the prenup is the only way that the WNI spouse in a mixed marriage can own land. The fact that many couples don't do their homework before marriage (ie, ignorance of the law) is no excuse...
 

davita

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Mar 13, 2012
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The decision will be interesting, and relevant to those who are in mixed marriages though not to the other foreigners who use nominee structures. I can't imagine the court being able to reconcile the marriage laws (50/50 ownership) with the agrarian laws (only Indonesians can own land). My bet is that they punt and say that mixed marriage couples can avail of a prenuptial agreement to preserve the WNI's right to own land, thus reaffirming that the prenup is the only way that the WNI spouse in a mixed marriage can own land. The fact that many couples don't do their homework before marriage (ie, ignorance of the law) is no excuse...

I agree.
Sadly, like most decisions in RI, the 'powers' will not have the courage to change anything. It's called NATO.
It takes effort and intellect to think of a progressive way to solve the dilemma and I applaud the perseverance of those willing to fight the obvious contradiction of their 'rights'.
i.e. It doesn't take rocket science to constitute a law providing a post-nup, similar to the pre-nup, so long as all parties are in agreement.

Not many mixed marriage couples had ever heard of pre-nups until recently...I never did when I married over 28 years ago. That pre-nup law was not considered as a mixed marriage provision but to preserve assets of Indonesian marriages. It just happens, and recently discovered, to provide an opportunity for mixed marriage property ownership.

Also, many mixed marriages were conducted abroad and later registered in Indonesia, which kinda obviated that opportunity as it isn't clear how to proceed...even today.

This situation has created the scenario of Indonesian female spouses cheating the system by purchasing Hak Milik in their maiden name, although married to a foreigner. The consequences of this could be far reaching if those same 'powers' decided to check.
 
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Mark

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Not many mixed marriage couples had ever heard of pre-nups until recently...I never did when I married over 28 years ago. That pre-nup law was not considered as a mixed marriage provision but to preserve assets of Indonesian marriages. It just happens, and recently discovered, to provide an opportunity for mixed marriage property ownership.

Also, many mixed marriages were conducted abroad and later registered in Indonesia, which kinda obviated that opportunity as it isn't clear how to proceed...even today.

This situation has created the scenario of Indonesian female spouses cheating the system by purchasing Hak Milik in their maiden name, although married to a foreigner. The consequences of this could be far reaching if those same 'powers' decided to check.

I hear you davita. The laws regarding prenup, marriage registration etc (either in Indonesia or outside and then registering in Indonesia) are unnecessarily complicated and the procedures are not transparent. In addition, government officials, whether in Indonesia or at embassies abroad, can provide accurate, inaccurate or just plain misleading advice in any given moment, so how can you rely on it? I agree that maybe a post-nup could be a potential answer if it was given legal effect as a pre-nup is.

As to the local spouses cheating the system, this rages on to this day, not only with respect to property, but also nationality. Most of the WNI's I know in Singapore married to a foreigner have taken a second passport from their husband's country, with Indonesia (which does not allow dual citizenship) being none the wiser.
 

davita

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Mar 13, 2012
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As to the local spouses cheating the system, this rages on to this day, not only with respect to property, but also nationality. Most of the WNI's I know in Singapore married to a foreigner have taken a second passport from their husband's country, with Indonesia (which does not allow dual citizenship) being none the wiser.

I know it as I've been there....but that's probably the subject for a new thread and discussion. Why don't you start one...I'll contribute my tuppence!
 

spicyayam

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Jan 12, 2009
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I cannot find any info from the hearing today as my Indonesian sux...would appreciate if any member gets info ...please post.

I did a quick scan of some forums and groups but can't see any mention of it. Some discussion about foreigners being able to purchase apartments* but I think we knew that was coming anyway.

* with conditions
 

davita

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Mar 13, 2012
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Thanks spicy
Jakpost reports that the President signed-off on allowing foreigners to lease (30 years) expensive apartments (+Rp 5 Billion) in certain areas...he says it will spur property demand. I think puasa is not a good time to make decisions...the mind is weak.:confused:

The headlines say 'own' but the report says...."The regulation will be identical to the existing one allowing foreign companies to lease space up to 30 years. However, the new one covers...foreign individuals".

How 'owning' and 'leasing for 30 years' can be the same confuses my simple mind. To me it says a foreigner can own the lease of an expensive apartment whilst his next door neighbor, if WNI, owns outright.
No mention of mortgaging or what occurs on selling....:icon_question:
 

ronb

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Aug 14, 2007
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Foreigners can't own property in Indonesia and nominee structures are most likely illegal if it came to a court hearing, however it would not be surprising that despite the tough talk, the government just doesn't have the energy or the means to follow up on their threats. It would be a complicated, messy and expensive task and there is much more low hanging fruit out there which gets the voters frothing with support, like shooting foreign drug dealers.

Mark you say "nominee structures are most likely illegal". I have read much and see nothing that supports this opinion. Courts appear to respect the contracts involved in nominee structures. The minister who said he was going after expats who "illegally" own land has come up with nothing. Why do we keep worrying about it?
 

Mark

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Apr 19, 2004
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Mark you say "nominee structures are most likely illegal". I have read much and see nothing that supports this opinion. Courts appear to respect the contracts involved in nominee structures. The minister who said he was going after expats who "illegally" own land has come up with nothing. Why do we keep worrying about it?

Sure, no problem, don't worry about it, at your own risk. The fact is that the agrarian law in Indonesia says that foreigners cannot own land. The nominee structure is a contractual arrangement whose sole and express purpose is to circumvent this law. I have not read anything from an Indonesian lawyer to suggest that such arrangements are legal or enforceable. If you have a local legal opinion otherwise, then please share it. I still don't get it... why always the push back on Indonesian law, whether property, visas etc. Yes, we don't always like it, and it yes, there is lots of room for 'interpretation' and 'uang facilitation' but at the end of the day we are all guests, so let's give up on trying to create utopia and just respect the laws. If we don't like them, then we can go somewhere else...
 

ronb

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Aug 14, 2007
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ronb

Sure, no problem, don't worry about it, at your own risk. The fact is that the agrarian law in Indonesia says that foreigners cannot own land.
Agreed.
The nominee structure is a contractual arrangement whose sole and express purpose is to circumvent this law.
Disagree. The nominee arrangement is a set of notarized contracts between the foreigner and the legal owner. They amount to a lease with conditions as per the contracts.
I have not read anything from an Indonesian lawyer to suggest that such arrangements are legal or enforceable.
Disputes over details of nominee arrangements end up in Bali courts. I have never seen the vailidty of the contracts questioned.
If you have a local legal opinion otherwise, then please share it.
I have no need for a legal opinion as I do not have a dispute. I have bought and old using nominee structure. It all goes smoothly.
I still don't get it... why always the push back on Indonesian law, whether property, visas etc.
There is no pushback. The law is fine .
Yes, we don't always like it, and it yes, there is lots of room for 'interpretation' and 'uang facilitation' but at the end of the day we are all guests, so let's give up on trying to create utopia and just respect the laws. If we don't like them, then we can go somewhere else...
Bit of a rant here. I do not dislike the law, I am not trying to bribe anyone, I am not striving to create some utopia, and I am not planning on going somewhere else.

I don't have a problem - maybe you do.
 

sakumabali

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Apr 2, 2010
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ronb maybe you have no problem yet. Try to sell your villa and perhaps you do then. What if your nominee (and real owner) needs money? Guess why he could borrow money with the nominee agreement as security?