Current Building Costs

[DCC]

Thought I would start a new thread as the "need your opinion" was mutating.

also from memory you had a bit of a schedule for building works with figures you thought it would cost ( for each step 1. set out 2 Frame 3. Lock up 4 fix) and the actual.

No Dash, that was not me...I don't what those 4 stages even mean as I'm from the States I focus on start and finish and aim for for those 2 dates to be within 10yrs of each other. I believe that qualifies internationally as professional standard.

We have our own odd terms, eh. I have heard others refer to a snag list? That's what we call the punch-out list, as in finish the f'n job or get punched-out.

What I can report, current vs 2006
- labor cost this time per mthe sar sq is Rp450k, labor contractor is the brother of my previous contractor and tells me I should therefore know why the increase - am I that picky? I remain more than impressed with the can do attitude shown and the quality of the workmanship. That comes to $4 per sq foot to build a seriously fine house. FYI, that what it cost me to set 1 sq ft of tile back in the States. My assistant says local builders near her home are getting around 750k for the same.
- material costs are all over the place as usual, but averaging about 20 higher than last time.
- exception; export quality new wood requires one to bend over n take it like....em, a human. Despite my best efforts to avoid using new wood (story in itself), I am using merbau (but not again) for the roof frame and it's $$$$$. Recommend export quality black coconut for non floor contact framing (roof) and hear it's in the 7j per m3 range.
- my Elect & Plumb install (mat & lab) will be 2 1/2 times the previous, serious upgrades to everything, hidden or not. Costing me about Rp500k per m2 :shock: but should be bulletproof.

gotta go, but I'll add more later

 

[Dasha]

DCC – I like your approach to schedules – 2 dates within 10 years. Sounds a bit like the deck I built on my house I used to own. Started 96 completed when we move out 2007 by proper tradesman in order to comply with certificate of occupancy.

Set out is pretty much just getting all foundations and sub floor in.
Frame is just getting the frame up and roof pitched.
Lock up is once all the doors and windows are in plaster up and usually things like external decks and handrails the like are complete.
Then Fix is all the internal doors skirts archs painting tiling showers basins and prime cost items (wall oven fans etc).

It’s sort of like landmarks in the journey of building. The trick is to complete each part before you move to the next in every area. I have seen a few guys get one end of the building ready and move in and this makes it a bit messy if you know what I mean. Usually cos of the cashflow problems and nothing ever seems to get completed and then the cook is not happy and gets on the case!

Interesting that it’s 4 times cheaper in Indo than the states. Comparatively that’s about on par with Australia. I have always maintained for 200k I should be able to get something ver ver noice for my dollar/rupia when things start for the wife and I.

Would you believe this wedding chapel http://www.bali-information.com/BaliPro ... p/Item/279 is almost the exact design ( my wife reckons the architect stole it from our study some how – impossible) we did 5 years ago for our place on the beach. High tide marks the front boundary on 70 are We have mezzanine floor drawn into ours but the glass and the pitch height and everything else – including size (without aquatic area) Picture the Sydney opera house and get how the back end of this thing looks in your mind’s eye. Don’t need pool with beach within strolling distance.

We are fortunate on Gili M that we have these magnificent full grown palms at the rear of the property so the house backs up to some nice shady area for the grand kids later. Only problem is water. We have to ship huge amounts if we don’t get the proper indigenous landscape right. I would be interested in getting your thoughts on what you did in 2006. I know you have better conditions than us but what arrangements did you make.

The can do attitude is where it’s at and I’m glad you mentioned that. I reckon if you are onsite for the first 3 stages I mentioned and you are spoiling your tradesman and their families as one does then you will be able to get a better bang for you buck. We intend to stay in one of the hotels on the Gili T for the start of the project and then set up inside once the roof is pitched. Keeping an eye on the structural part is pretty crucial I understand as the locals do have a bit of tendency to cut corners with concrete strength, footing depths etc. Not that I don’t trust em it’s just a bit of thing to look out for in our case with such a rad design.

Dunno if we can go with merbau ( it sounds like you were not happy on that count DCC) on this one. I have considered steel portal frame (as the glass is going to be tricky) but where the hell does someone get galvanizing done in Lombok? :shock:

 

[VincentOG]

DCC, thanks for that info.
Can I clarify something?

“labor cost this time per mthe sar sq is Rp450k”
Are you saying labour now costs Rp450,000 a month?
I assume that’s for unskilled workers (carrying, digging etc)?
We are currently paying 25,000-30,000/day in Karangasem.
That’s equates to Rp750-900,000/month.

Currently paying tukangs 35,000-50,000/day (Rp1,050-1,500,000/month).
My architect tells me current DPS/Kuta top rate for tukangs is 75,000/day.

Current Cost For A Modest Building
I’m currently building a 32.5m² simple staff building that will be a prep kitchen/laundry/store room.
As it’s a staff rather than primary building, I opted for good as opposed best quality including;
• Specialist anti-termite ground & wood treatment (3 visits, 3yr warranty)
• plastic membrane dpc
• brick walls, plastered
• good quality roof tiles with foil lining
• ceramic tile floor
• bangkeri door & window frames
• teak doors
• extensive MEP

The total cost will be about Rp90m which is about Rp2.7m/m².

I could have got a much reduced price say (Rp2.2-2.4m/m²) if I had
(1) employed the tukangs & workers directly i.e. no contractor
(2) used a local anti termite system (Landtrex – spelling?) rather than a specialist

Contractor
I didn’t come to Bali to kick ass (x 10) so having 1 point of contact, a written contract, a retention & warranty period seemed worth paying for.

Specialist Anti Termite Treatment
Not something to economise on when you live in termite city.
Most contractors will apply Landtrex but it’s a one-off treatment, after which it’s you verses several million greedy white ants for the rest of your life.
Last year I installed an old Javanese gladak (wooden house) on my land.
The site and the building were extensively treated by my anti termite specialist. Given the 3 year warranty, it was money well spent.

 

[DCC]

Vince - I'm sorry I forgot to put in per m2, as in 450k per m2 - this fixed price covers the bulk of the labor for the house - MEP, Alang2, cabinetry, fixtures, etc., etc. are extra. I would not pay someone 450 a month and feel good with myself, never mind what the quality would be.

My finish price per m2 will be nearly double what you are paying for numerous reasons but I'm getting what I pay for! My reclaimed teak doors & windows alone are 62juta

 

[aquaman]

I'm enjoying reading your posts on building costs as it's something I need to consider in the future so anything I can gleem from you guys now will help with my planning. Vincent I had a look at your link to you photos....some great shots there I notice you are living or building near the east coast...great choice in my book. Any idea on prices of small lots of land (freehold not lease) between Amlapura and around Amed. I 'm really only asking for a guestimate from you or anyone else who keeps an eye on prices there. I'm not necessarily after beach front but seaview (even) distant is ok or hillside/jungle view. I'd probably only want something around 10 -50 are. I realise agent prices on the net are over inflated and if and when the time comes I'll try and deal direct with owners (if at all possible).

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[Markit]

For current land costs in and around Amlapura:

bali-expat-forum-f2/amed-t21706.html#p62264

 

[DCC]

Here's some current images of my build. At the halfway point and reexamined the budget and as I said the price is coming out steep - it's a small house and everything is overdone :0. The bataco (?) block walls shown in the photos are only around the bathrooms - brick is used for the living areas. Pics show details of the roof framing - merbau/bamboo. The electrical is dual super quality wired - heavy for power/lighter for lights, all connections soldered, epoxy-ed and re insulated. Water supply pipes are from Europe - all doors/windows/cabinets are reclaimed old growth teak. Only 150 m2 and I'll have at least 150 juta in stone/sand/steel/cement. And I'm on top of material prices!

The access road was overdone as well - what's my prob

 

[Markit]

DCC if I remember rightly your last build had a pretty serious access road leading to it too, or am I thinking of another build.

The reason I ask is that I found that I was being offered really great plots of land at a great price but they were often quite a way from the main road. The sellers seemed to be always playing down the costs and difficulties of putting in the road (duh!) but this raised some danger flags to me. When I looked into it the road building was a real minefield, what with getting permission and access from all the land owners and the possibility of that permission being withdrawn at some future date meaning that you couldn't get to your house.

Finally I gave up on it because of the problems and also the feeling that many of the sellers were just looking for a Bule to finance the road to their other plots of land which would have increased significantly in value through the access.

What is the square meterage of the house?

 

[aquaman]

DCC looks like you've the makings of a nice place there and there's nothing like a nice piece of dirt with green grass, rice paddies and palm trees. If you don't mind me asking what do you plan for the exterior finish eg rendered brick, natural stone/wood etc? Nice stonework along the low wall. I take it that's part of the access road as well as landscaping feature?

 

[troy]

A very nice setting in deed, but I'm afraid the build quality for the claimed construction costs don't add up.

And 60jt worth of teak for a 150m2 building? You're either paying a significant multiple of market value or attempting to reflect an unrealistic cost of construction. How many cubic meters of teak frames and doors can you possibly fit in a dwelling of 150m2?

DCC, I've read a few of your posts and you enjoy passing on a strong opinion, so I won't apologize for doing likewise.

I put your finished cost of construction in the 3.5jt/m2 range, and that's tops, likely to be less. Anyone with any experience in Balinese / Indonesian construction can easily see from the pictures posted that the amount you're paying per square meter is simply not plausible. There is of course the possibility that you're being ripped off, but I don't think that's the case - I think you're really trying to market yourself as a top quality builder - as to whether that may or may not be the case I can not confirm or challenge, but the grade of construction reflected here is definitely well bellow the value market grade of the costs you're claiming.

Nice access road though, I'll give you that.

Troy F.

 

[DCC]

Troy - Yea I've passed some strong opinions before and I'll do it again . but your strong opinion boils down to calling me a liar ??? which is weird, so whatever dude!

If you can estimate my finished costs from these in-process photos you are a God!!! - and I'm not worthy! And you're really something if you can asses build quality from these pics...as build quality is a blend of numerous of things, most quite subtle and certainly not perceptible from where you sit, design critique sure, but not much else.

By exception, however, there's a good deal of build quality evident in the access road because it's a ROAD! The sweeping curves alone, both vert & horz, are in stark contrast to the norm here. The work speaks for itself. Thanks for the compliment.

As for my teak millwork - I don't know what I paid for the material vs. labor - I chose my supplier because of his excellent quality custom furniture (I know the diff, I have a BFA in Furn Design/wood work) and knew he would deliver to my expectations. He's been storing old growth teak for years (mostly from old joglos) so he probably didn't pay squat for what I used, more power to him! As for m3My good friend from https://www.terramai.com/ tells me wholesale rough or as-is costs are 20j - and prices on Sunset are 20 - 30j - now go buy some, select out the flaws, and then have it milled to spec - then you do the math!

Speaking of math, If you're in the trade you'll know that as a building's size decreases the costs per m2/sq. ft. often increase - everything's relative though. Build only my kitchen and 2 baths and it would soar!

 

[Markit]

Thank you Troy! I have been around a number of building sites here in Bali and the world and have had my own experiences too. In my previous post I was trying, in the mode of this new improved forum etiquette, to be "NICE". That got ignored, so be it.

What you are showing there DCC is normal bullshit Bali building, sorry, aint nothing there worth shouting about and Troy hit the proverbial Nail on the Head - you are involved here in MARKETING, not information.

But, nice road.

Anybody that needs a good road, well hell, talk to DCC :lol:

But if you need a good house build it yourself.

And how you get 150m2 out of that building I don't get unless there's a basement you aint showing? :lol:

Post your plans and let us all take part in it?

But true to form you will probably disappear now :roll:

 

[fadmin]

Gentlemen,

Please don't call eachother liars etc, or get personal otherwise.

 

[DCC]

Markit -

Where in any of this did you get the idea I was marketing anything? This house ain't for sale! I get my biz by word of mouth not on this forum! And for over 20 years, when building for others, I have built on a cost + % basis - only items in the ground are paid for, I have an open accounting book policy. I focus on craft not $.

Bulls--t building? What's that based on - your many years experience here or in the trade? Neither, correct? Have ever built a custom home? There is nothing in these that is out of the ordinary - it's masonry shell Einstein!

I posted this to share - not to shout about, and I certainly ain't bragging about spending $...more like complaining. So ---- U!

154 sq mtrs to be precise!

My lead carpenter!

The previous house the little bugger built for me.

 

[Markit]

Ok I apologize I didn't mean that the building was "bullshit" but just normal "bullshit" if you get me.

It looks perfectly normal in every way. And from the pictures offered it was not evident that the build was L shaped. That's why I asked for the plans. For a top line custom build I would expect the brick work to be laid end on not end to end.... double the width of the wall and number of bricks used for better insulation and and stability, but costs more too.

Jeeez! for a builder you're pretty touchy. Thought you guys were supposed to be tough! :shock:

I build my first custom house in 1976 and have been involved with several builds (not for myself) since then. It hasn't been my bread and butter, more a hobby but I have learned a bit in the last 30 years :?

And in the spirit of "you show me yours and I'll show you mine":

And just to prove "Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ":

 

[Markit]

I guess I'm just too stupid to do this photo thing so if anybody is still interested in some house plans try here:

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/Eboybay/N ... directlink

 

[troy]

For a top line custom build I would expect the brick work to be laid end on not end to end.... double the width of the wall and number of bricks used for better insulation and and stability, but costs more too.

:roll:

Such would not reflect any improvement in quality, but rather a complete misunderstanding of building fundamentals, particularly in relation to geographic considerations.

Some expensive and inexpensive options that greatly improve the quality of a building in Indonesia include (but are not limited to):

1. Using kiln fired clay bricks, versus sun baked clay bricks
2. Galvanizing all steel used for re-inforcing concrete
3. Using high quality waterproofing materials (such as Sika, etc)
4. Using quality exterior weatherproof paints
5. Maintaining stringent oversight and quality control as such pertains to concrete ratios
6. adhering to adequate structural codes
7. Actually using alkali as it is suposed to be used, and limiting excessive use of plamir by improving the standard of finish in masonary structures that are to be painted
8. White ant treatment applied to the land and re-appliable in the years following construction
9. Limiting "dry cement drying", a technique used in Indonesia more than anywhere else to fasten the setting of cement for wall stones to be installed
10. Not shortcutting electrical installations
11. Providing adequate eave overhang to protect vertical elements of the building envelope
12. Pressure testing water supply pipes
13. Understanding the limitations of wood and the weathering of each species
14. Understanding the different foundation structures required depending on where you're building - pilon vs foot-slabs

The most obvious thing prevalant in Indonesian construction is the terrible quality of finishings, marble aside. Look at most exterior walls of most new villas at about 11am - you didn't see those shadows in the brochure did you?

 

[gilbert de jong]

Hello Y'all,,,

Markit wrote:
For a top line custom build I would expect the brick work to be laid end on not end to end.... double the width of the wall and number of bricks used for better insulation and and stability, but costs more too.



Such would not reflect any improvement in quality, but rather a complete misunderstanding of building fundamentals, particularly in relation to geographic considerations.

What has geographic considerations or building fundamentals to do with building a stronger and therefor a higher quality wall?? I am not talking about the finishing quality, but stronger is in my book more durable and therefor a higher quality...
It would become also twice as expensive to get the woodframes made to fit the wider wall, the steel columns in the corners and every 5 meters, also double the width, it would add up.

Btw, Markit I noticed your change in approaching several post's from another direction, more a 'nice guy' approach then the 'sarcastic' funny approach, sometimes the latter get's misunderstood, as it was here too. Eitherway is good and enjoyable to read, is my humble opinion.
Anyways, back too the thread...you guys keep talking about a road...which pic is that? If it's the one I think...I only see sand and rocks... just joking DCC, when it's finished it will be a fine road. And the house is hard to say how the finished product will look, but I have no doubt that you don't want to live in a hot, small and badly build house, and therefor it will become a beautifull place. I wish you all the luck and persistance in finishing it the way you want it.
Oh yeah, just to make sure...a "finished cost of construction" is that including fixtures like a batthub, toilets, etcetc..?? Thanks in forehand for the clarification.
Friendly greetings, Gilbert.

 

[troy]

The assumption that merely making a wall thicker will make it stronger is seriously flawed.

Especially the application means that Markit outlined, which would result in "indonesian" sun dried bricks having far less interlocking, as the "end" edge is barely half the length of the side edge. Geographic conditions? Um, earthquakes for one. The insulation benefits Markit suggested would also be far from optimal in hot climates. A double brick wall with a 50mm cavity would have far better insulating properties in hot climates, but moisture would be a concern in the cavity with humidity levels as high as they are, which is probably why it's not done there.

To make a wall stronger, the addition of reinforced concrete pillars (above the minimum requirements) would be the first choice by anybody in the know, and secondly, using kiln fired clay bricks (which are roasted at about 900 degrees C if I'm not mistaken) would be the second choice. Sure a solid re-inforced concrete wall would be even stronger still, but would potentially pose longer term consequences - I.e. A form of concrete cancer caused by rusting of the internal reinforced steel, (as opposed to the typical concrete cancer that is initiated by water absorbing into the concrete, freezing, expanding, and flaking away the concrete, later leading to rusting of the inner steel reinforcements).

Troy F.

 

[DCC]

Markit - Peace! FYI - Those are only boundary/privacy block walls in my pics, they're strong installed as standard but only as strong the foundation/column/ring work; sum of the parts. Troy's list covers a lot ground and should be taken to heart.(my comments on them below)

I built in Florida for yrs and as for insulation in hot climes, if you're using a/c in a closed space then paramount is keeping the heat out...or simplified; keep the sun out & off. That done - further insulating solid masonry exterior walls is of little benefit. Where I live in Ubud a/c ain't required and therefore out of favor with me - here the challenge is to both avoid solar gain and, more importantly, avoid trapped air/heat build up. That's done by design; cross ventilation/ roof ventilation/ fans.

Gilbert - Yea baby, sand and stone! Except where I have a (serious) washout issue it will all be just that; sand & stone (+ semen). The sirtu batu kali (crushed river stone/sand mix) will last a lifetime (again, foundation is key) and I love it!

And yes my budget is turn-key, move-in ready. Bath fixt are Toto, incl.toilets ($$$). Principal lighting fixt. will be custom made - blown glass & copper and/or copper/nickle/bronze plate over steel. Stainless cooking appliances by Ariston w/copper vent hood. Granite counter tops over (here we go again!) old-growth reclaimed teak cabs (painted) in the kitchen - marmer vanity tops in the bathrooms. Flooring is terracotta (my fave) in communal rooms - reclaimed Ulin wood (planed/plugged/T&Ged) in the bedrooms - acid washed marmer in the baths - 4c flame finish andesite for exterior slab stone. A few interior/exterior walls are stone - bath walls will be a combination marmer/encaustic cement tile (both solid color and my own custom design motif). Wardrobe cabinets are reclaimed teak. Now before anyone assumes I'm a pompous a-s for stating all this, my costs were questioned!!! I'll add the style is very low key and not at all showy - it's KISS (I like that Gil); sweet & simple.

Troy - Your list of qualitas suggestions are on the money and all should take notice. These are practical, common-sense suggestions that derive from experience (I assume) and understanding the nature of the composite construct - a lot of this, a little of that, and some of those, in the proper blend, produces a fine dwelling.

I'll add; choose your help wisely.

My background is carpentry, my sum total experience is low-stress low-volume custom residential work, I'm not one for a lot of bureaucratic/time intensive oversight. I discovered a long time ago that a good craftsman (high-end or not) is, 99% of the time, an honest person. Pride in one's work is pride in one's self and usually shows respect for the work of equals - including the boss's or the client's money. When I found my 1st crew here I interviewing and judging the work of three labor contractors - I choose the one with the least amount of high-end expat experience because his simple houses were level, plumb and true and the details showed understanding. And as I expected, after a little orientation with a new process or material he was doing it and doing his best!

Bottom line for me has been less conflict and more collaboration = better results. I'm on site everyday - not all day!

I have my own related list to add that deals with green build issues but I've rattled on and on enough already. Besides, I dropped every indo word I know.