Land sale - Buyer and seller tax if nominee does NOT change

[jaffa]

Hi guys,
Anyone know or have experience of transferring beneficial ownership of property (land or land + buildings) between Bule?
My logic tells me that whilst the Nominee and Bule agreements have to be unwound, there is no transfer of true ownership (the Indonesian),
no notification to Dispenda or BPN and therefore the transaction should NOT attract either buyer nor seller tax.
would welcome views

 

[Fred2]

Your Logic is correct, the owner is not selling his land. End of story.

 

[davita]

Hi guys,
Anyone know or have experience of transferring beneficial ownership of property (land or land + buildings) between Bule?
My logic tells me that whilst the Nominee and Bule agreements have to be unwound, there is no transfer of true ownership (the Indonesian),
no notification to Dispenda or BPN and therefore the transaction should NOT attract either buyer nor seller tax.
would welcome views

Exactly...the ownership has not changed. The agreement between bule#1 and #2 and the nominee may be changed but has nothing to do with ownership...it is semantic but there is no such thing as 'beneficial ownership' in regard to RI hak milik property and foreigners.

 

[sakumabali]

Why sb should consider a deal like this? We all know about "nominee structure" and then keep the old one to save some thousand dollar taxes?

Meet in a parking lot, hand over a suitcase with money and get a certificate (which the real owner - the nominee - can get back easily as only him has the right to hold it if the property is free of debts, he just declare it as lost or stolen and get a new one; even in case you hold it because it is rightfully his)

so anybody consider this : please get a certificate of indebtedness from the guy as high as possible (best signed by nominee and ex"owner" and tbh how realistic is that?)

 

[Markit]

only him has the right to hold it if the property is free of debts, he just declare it as lost or stolen and get a new one; even in case you hold it because it is rightfully his)

so anybody consider this : please get a certificate of indebtedness from the guy as high as possible (best signed by nominee and ex"owner" and tbh how realistic is that?)

Would agree - you will be safest if you transfer the "mortgage" from Bule 1 to Bule 2 with the nominee as the debtor in both cases. This will require a new Hak whatever certificate as you will want the name of the new "owner" on the certificate as mortgage lender.

Actually it would be a golden opportunity to ALSO get one of the new 80 year leaseholds on the place (belt and braces?)

 

[davita]

1. Would agree - you will be safest if you transfer the "mortgage" from Bule 1 to Bule 2 with the nominee as the debtor in both cases. This will require a new Hak whatever certificate as you will want the name of the new "owner" on the certificate as mortgage lender.

2. Actually it would be a golden opportunity to ALSO get one of the new 80 year leaseholds on the place (belt and braces?)

1. I wonder if any 'nominee' would saddle him/herself with a debt just because they like blue eyes...unless nefarious or lucrative.

My wifes gym-pal is the 'nominee' (no debt attached) for a wealthy Frenchman but he also employs her as resort manager (about 10 villas). She is well paid and earns more than her husband who had to transfer to Jakarta for work. She stays alone in Bali while he commmutes and she considers this a good arrangement. I'm not sure if she means her husband stays in Jakarta or that she enjoys managing the property.....but she sure likes to work-out at the gym every morning.

Anyone can lend money in Indonesia but it would be a private arrangement (an IOU). To do so legally requires to be a registered money-lender as PT or PTPMA.

2. This is a good idea but changes the title from Hak Milik (right to own) to Hak Pakai (right to use)...this is what Susi Johnson's group advocate.

 

[Fred2]

Any one legally can lend money but you can only get money back,not land etc.

 

[davita]

Any one legally can lend money but you can only get money back,not land etc.

You're right but Markit's comment was regarding a 'mortgage' on Hak Milik property...I believe one would need to be registered/licensed as a financial company (PT or PTPMA) to effect a legal mortgage in Indonesia.

 

[Markit]

One of the purposes of the "mortgage" is to encumber the property so that it can't be sold out from under you and hence the need to have your name on the land certificate as "lender".

The premise being that any prospective secret buyer viewing the certificate will see that it is encumbered and shy off.

It also is a good way to keep your nominee in line - don't ever doubt that Indonesians are very respectful of bureaucratic legalese and 99% will never question the contract no matter how crazy you make it. Hell, add in that his first-born will be sold into slavery if it goes wrong and you'll see they will believe...

 

[jaffa]

So you are referring to Hak Pakai (or perhaps Hak Sewa) here Markit? I.e. need to change the name on the existing Hak Pakai (which was granted in addition to the nominee agreement - i.e. "mortgage" of indebtedness ).
Question then perhaps is what the fees payable for someone to change a name on a Hak Pakai certificate (25+25+25 or whatever length it is)

 

[Fred2]

Hak Tanggungan(mortgage) in Indonesia we have talked about this before, do a search, You can lend money, your name is registered on the certificate. you can only get the money you loaned back, not the property(this stops loan sharks).

 

[davita]

One of the purposes of the "mortgage" is to encumber the property so that it can't be sold out from under you and hence the need to have your name on the land certificate as "lender".

The premise being that any prospective secret buyer viewing the certificate will see that it is encumbered and shy off.

*It also is a good way to keep your nominee in line - don't ever doubt that Indonesians are very respectful of bureaucratic legalese and 99% will never question the contract no matter how crazy you make it. Hell, add in that his first-born will be sold into slavery if it goes wrong and you'll see they will believe* ...

What would motivate an Indonesian, who is volunteering to be the title holder (Hak Milik) for a foreigner, then encumber himself with a huge mortgage for which he will be responsible for the monthly premiums. In any event...to have a legal mortgage on Hak Milik/Pakai property, as collateral, requires the lender to be registered with the Financial Services Dept. Otherwise it is just an IOU

In such a scenario as above the 'nominee' could sell the Hak Milik title to another Indonesian for the outstanding loan, get a commission, and leave the bule with nothing but a piece of paper saying Ketut has an outstanding IOU...good luck pushing that through the courts.


BTW I texted Markit's above comments ** to my nephew, who is the Deputy Chief of Police in Bulelang, and he thought it offensive to Indonesians, as do I.

 

[geedee]

BTW I texted Markit's above comments ** to my nephew, who is the Deputy Chief of Police in Bulelang, and he thought it offensive to Indonesians, as do I.

Why would anyone even think of doing that ????
It speaks volumes about the type of person you are. Now I understand why you are the most disliked on the forum as per the dislike stats.
Please text your nephew my comments that he should stop being on the take and try catching the peadophiles who operate in his area under the protection of the police.
Maybe you are just pissed again as its now lunchtime.

 

[sakumabali]

Question then perhaps is what the fees payable for someone to change a name on a Hak Pakai certificate (25+25+25 or whatever length it is)

well if the seller pays 10 % of the value of the deal (f.e. hak sewa), government will probably tell you that a change of names is nothing but a sale. so 10 %. Don't accept first notary offer. I just saved 50 % by asking around

 

[davita]

Why would anyone even think of doing that ????
It speaks volumes about the type of person you are. Now I understand why you are the most disliked on the forum as per the dislike stats.
Please text your nephew my comments that he should stop being on the take and try catching the peadophiles who operate in his area under the protection of the police.
Maybe you are just pissed again as its now lunchtime.

Should I take it you agree with Markit that we should keep our nominees in line by saddling them with a huge debt 'coz they are so stupid, and threaten to sell their first-born into slavery just to prove who's boss....smacks of a certain amount of racism imo. I wondered what an intelligent, educated Indonesian would think of such utterances......so asked my nephew.

BTW I really don't care about being liked or not....it's like kindergarten. What is important is that newcomers, asking questions, are not lulled into false situations re: property ownership....because someone comments without quoting facts or references.

RE: your red comment...yesterday I was released from Prima Medika Hospital after having colon surgery last week to remove a tumor and a fifth of my upper colon....so hardly in the mood to have a pub-lunch......although it does sound enticing.

Re: your green comment...If you PM me your address/tel#/email I'll be sure to pass your above comments to him....so he can respond directly. Alternately, call on him to offer your information about the pedophiles and him 'being on the take'...his office is in Jl Pramuka, Singeraja...tel 0362 41510.

 

[geedee]

Should I take it you agree with Markit that we should keep our nominees in line by saddling them with a huge debt 'coz they are so stupid, and threaten to sell their first-born into slavery just to prove who's boss....smacks of a certain amount of racism imo. I wondered what an intelligent, educated Indonesian would think of such utterances......so asked my nephew.

BTW I really don't care about being liked or not....it's like kindergarten. What is important is that newcomers, asking questions, are not lulled into false situations re: property ownership....because someone comments without quoting facts or references.

RE: your red comment...yesterday I was released from Prima Medika Hospital after having colon surgery last week to remove a tumor and a fifth of my upper colon....so hardly in the mood to have a pub-lunch......although it does sound enticing.

Re: your green comment...If you PM me your address/tel#/email I'll be sure to pass your above comments to him....so he can respond directly. Alternately, call on him to offer your information about the pedophiles and him 'being on the take'...his office is in Jl Pramuka, Singeraja...tel 0362 41510.

I don't know enough about Indonesian property laws/deals to comment or agree or not to agree with him.
What I do know is joking when I read it.
He may be a lot of things but a racist he is not.
Your comments were very vindictive and unbecoming and grassing someone is pathetic and a sign of jealousy.
My comment about your nephew being on the take was unfair as I don't know him.
Although remember I don't live there so he has no effect on me at all.
Your name dropping is weak and a true sign of you character.
Apart from that I hope your operation is a success.

 

[davita]

I don't know enough about Indonesian property laws/deals to comment or agree or not to agree with him.
What I do know is joking when I read it.
He may be a lot of things but a racist he is not.
Your comments were very vindictive and unbecoming and grassing someone is pathetic and a sign of jealousy.
My comment about your nephew being on the take was unfair as I don't know him.
Although remember I don't live there so he has no effect on me at all.
Your name dropping is weak and a true sign of you character.
Apart from that I hope your operation is a success.

I was in a conversation with my nephew on the subject of this thread as he has a law degree and is my nominee, so he knows due process. I asked for legal references from him about mortgages and this was the subject....it was an aside that I wanted his opinion of Markit's comment as I found his remarks offensive, as did my nephew...that's all.
It's absurd to think I'm being vindictive or grassing or jealous...you have a fertile imagination.

Thanks for your wishes on my operation....I'm left with a scar from breast-plate to pubes so I guess I'll not be wearing that teeny-weeny-yellow-dot bikini ever again.

 

[Markit]

Peace people! Please.

I have blocked Davita so I don't have to read his deranged ramblings so when anyone else quotes him I'm forced to see it.

Needless to say he hasn't understood the simplest concept. The "encumbrance" is a legal term meaning the title isn't "free" and "good" so anyone seeing the encumbrance (mortgage agreement) on the deeds will know that it won't be a simple sale - it has nothing to do with the nominee.

Anyone that's in any doubt how respectful of authority the Balinese are just try driving IN the OUT lane at Hardys with a Balinese in the car/bike.

Did anyone catch the name of his nephew? Wonder how he'll like getting calls from all over the world (think Nigerian princes and Qaddafi's wife) to his office number now that Davita has "outed" him?

 

[Markit]

Don't accept first notary offer. I just saved 50 % by asking around

True thing. The notaries will all show you their little government cheat sheet with the various prices for their jobs. These can be assumed to be the upper limit. I've gone from one to the other with a job their sheet says would be 40 million and refused to pay that. I offered 10 and the first guy took my hand off! Did an ok job too.

 

[davita]

Did anyone catch the name of his nephew? Wonder how he'll like getting calls from all over the world (think Nigerian princes and Qaddafi's wife) to his office number now that Davita has "outed" him?

For information.....Bali Police Stations - AngloINFO Bali, in Bali (Indonesia) Easy to find.