Hak Pakai over Hak Milik ?

[Andrew]

Hi,

I read a lot about land ownership, and am somewhat familiar with Hak Pakai, Hak Milik and Hak Sewa.

If a piece of land or a property is sold with Hak Milik, then one needs a nominee, but it´s not 100% safe (what is 100% safe anyway). Why not put a Hak Pakai title on top of the Hak Milik to make it more secure ?

Let´s say my nominee has the Hak Milik and I have all the contracts with him to secure everything needed. Then we put a Hak Pakai on top and I "lease" the land from him for 25 years. We extend the Hak Pakai as soon as possible (can it be extended before the 25 years are over ?) for another 20 years. So whatever happens with the Hak Milik / the contracts concerning the Hak Milik, I still have the Hak Pakai and can use the property for 25 + 20 years.

Is that possible? I know it will mean additional costs. Any suggestions / downsides ?

Thx for some input

Andrew

 

[sakumabali]

hi andrew, yes it's possible and doable, good for foreigners is that the nominee can't cheat you, even if the judge give him back "his" plot (let'S say he gives the judge money and say "they forced me into signing this") you still have the hak pakai...I'm using this too

 

[jaffa]

Yes this seems to be all the rage at the moment Andrew (25+25+20) but I have spoken to a number of Notaries who suggest that the Bule who thinks that the Hak Pakai can be renewed at a peppercorn rental after 25 years might be in for a surprise when the Gov't wants their 10% tax on the market value of the new lease regardless of the fact that you agreed a 70 years Hak pakai with the underlying freeholder (i.e. think a hell of a lot more than 10% of the market value now). But ask 2 Notaries and you get 3 opinions!!
Problem with all this is trying to find someone who has reached the end of 25 years (i.e. there isn't anyone!)

Crystal ball anyone?

Hi,

I read a lot about land ownership, and am somewhat familiar with Hak Pakai, Hak Milik and Hak Sewa.

If a piece of land or a property is sold with Hak Milik, then one needs a nominee, but it´s not 100% safe (what is 100% safe anyway). Why not put a Hak Pakai title on top of the Hak Milik to make it more secure ?

Let´s say my nominee has the Hak Milik and I have all the contracts with him to secure everything needed. Then we put a Hak Pakai on top and I "lease" the land from him for 25 years. We extend the Hak Pakai as soon as possible (can it be extended before the 25 years are over ?) for another 20 years. So whatever happens with the Hak Milik / the contracts concerning the Hak Milik, I still have the Hak Pakai and can use the property for 25 + 20 years.

Is that possible? I know it will mean additional costs. Any suggestions / downsides ?

Thx for some input

Andrew

 

[Georgie]

Yes this seems to be all the rage at the moment Andrew (25+25+20) but I have spoken to a number of Notaries who suggest that the Bule who thinks that the Hak Pakai can be renewed at a peppercorn rental after 25 years might be in for a surprise when the Gov't wants their 10% tax on the market value of the new lease regardless of the fact that you agreed a 70 years Hak pakai with the underlying freeholder (i.e. think a hell of a lot more than 10% of the market value now). But ask 2 Notaries and you get 3 opinions!!
Problem with all this is trying to find someone who has reached the end of 25 years (i.e. there isn't anyone!)

Crystal ball anyone?

,

No Crystal Ball.

Friends just paid their tax on their first 25 years and it was on land value only, and it came in way under what they paid for the land so they saved some money (house was finished), so, isn't the tax only on the land value?

You pay tax in every country so I was budgeting for that in the future anyway, I am of the opinion if my land value goes up then at least I can sell it for more, everything in this world goes up, taxes and death you know they're unavoidable.

 

[gilbert de jong]

tax is based on land value...land value is based on what is registered on the yearly taxslip...

 

[SHoggard]

Yes this seems to be all the rage at the moment Andrew (25+25+20) but I have spoken to a number of Notaries who suggest that the Bule who thinks that the Hak Pakai can be renewed at a peppercorn rental after 25 years might be in for a surprise when the Gov't wants their 10% tax on the market value of the new lease regardless of the fact that you agreed a 70 years Hak pakai with the underlying freeholder (i.e. think a hell of a lot more than 10% of the market value now). But ask 2 Notaries and you get 3 opinions!!
Problem with all this is trying to find someone who has reached the end of 25 years (i.e. there isn't anyone!)
Crystal ball anyone?

tax is based on land value...land value is based on what is registered on the yearly taxslip... Gilbert

Is it possible to renew before the 25 years are up? If so what would considered to be a 'respectable' time-frame to be looking to extend the Hak Pakai 25 + 25?
Obviously in the case of a 'pure' Hak Pakai (one in which the Bule doesn't have Hak Milik & nominee) the willingness of the 'owner' obviously depends on how much he needs the money... but from the legal or administrative prespective (as we know, not always the same thing)
If so.. roughly what would the calculation be?

 

[sakumabali]

Is it possible to renew before the 25 years are up? If so what would considered to be a 'respectable' time-frame to be looking to extend the Hak Pakai 25 + 25?

YES of course it is possible, the best moment to renew is when your landlord needs money :greedy_dollars::icon_redface::couple_inlove::angel: so as SOON as possible like after 5,6,7,8 years after he spent all his money for all his vices??

THAN you can negotiate the terms when YOU are in charge, don't go there in the last moment :boxing:

 

[SHoggard]

Hi,
Most of my search has focused on Hak Milik, but I've come across a property that would suit quite well: nice piece of land, house - unfinished - I still have to find out WHY the house is unfinished, I've had the standard basic response 'owner gone back to his own country"
BUT it's Hak Pakai - I note that it is only available to Indonesian Residents, so what's the easiest route to residency.
The plan is to spend 3-4 months/year in Bali & rent for the rest of the year for at least the next few years.
So what's the easiest residency requirement that meets the HP regulation?

 

[Fred2]

Hi,
Most of my search has focused on Hak Milik, but I've come across a property that would suit quite well: nice piece of land, house - unfinished - I still have to find out WHY the house is unfinished, I've had the standard basic response 'owner gone back to his own country"
BUT it's Hak Pakai - I note that it is only available to Indonesian Residents, so what's the easiest route to residency.
The plan is to spend 3-4 months/year in Bali & rent for the rest of the year for at least the next few years.
So what's the easiest residency requirement that meets the HP regulation?

Can please tell me were you seen this??????
I think you mean citizenship of Indonesia, I think this very easy. You need to be a resident for 4 years fill out 2 million forms and then convince the Indonesian government why you want to give up your citizenship in your country to become a Indonesia citizen.
A Little advice to all the people out there that want to buy a little bit of Bali. NO matter what company you own, NO matter what friends you know, NO matter what bit of paper you have signed, the only person that can own property (name on title) in Indonesia is a Indonesian citizen.

 

[Georgie]

Hi,
Most of my search has focused on Hak Milik, but I've come across a property that would suit quite well: nice piece of land, house - unfinished - I still have to find out WHY the house is unfinished, I've had the standard basic response 'owner gone back to his own country"
BUT it's Hak Pakai - I note that it is only available to Indonesian Residents, so what's the easiest route to residency.
The plan is to spend 3-4 months/year in Bali & rent for the rest of the year for at least the next few years.
So what's the easiest residency requirement that meets the HP regulation?

Hak Pakai is generally only open to someone with a KITAS and resides the majority of the time in Bali, not just Indonesia. You wont be able to spend only 3-4 months per year on a Hak Pakai.

 

[jaffa]

Hak Pakai is generally only open to someone with a KITAS and resides the majority of the time in Bali, not just Indonesia. You wont be able to spend only 3-4 months per year on a Hak Pakai.

There was a press release from Jakarta around 6 months ago (with some pressure from Foreigners no doubt) that indicated that the interpretation of who could hold Hak Pakai could relate to anyone who has a financial interest in Indonesia NOT just someone based here and with a valid KITAS. I can't find it but it came from a very senior government minster suggesting that anyone with an economic interest is entitled to use Hak Pakai (and that makes sense as you might run a business but not be based here).
The issue is whether that extends to people who simply have a passive investment (ownership of land/villa) and the implication was yes it did. Being a Civil law jurisdiction it is interpretation of the constitution that matters rather than using precedent law as set down by decisions of courts (as Common law countries do).

However there has been NO change to the relevant section of the Agrarian law governing this for a long term as far as I can determine (1961??)

 

[Georgie]

The issue is whether that extends to people who simply have a passive investment (ownership of land/villa) and the implication was yes it did. Being a Civil law jurisdiction it is interpretation of the constitution that matters rather than using precedent law as set down by decisions of courts (as Common law countries do).
)

You hit the nail on the head "Interpretation". I actually found in Australia that if you could argue good enough in court, someones interpretation was a good argument. I also found the word "reasonable" used a lot in Australian law.....now what I consider reasonable can be different to someone else.