Antique Hunting

[tintin]

OK, rien.gluvers, I'll bite.

First, you'd better re-read my two posts on the subject, and maybe get yourself an English-Dutch dictionary while you are at it, because I clearly stated that my comments should be taken for what they are, i.e. coming from observations, which are NOT those of a professional.

1)

Since it is not my business, I have no idea how one goes about getting them ("old things").

and

2)

Like I said before, I am not in antiques, so I can only talk from a "pedestrian" point of view

Let's look at couple of definitions of "antique."

1) An item which is at least 100 years old and is collected or desirable due to rarity, condition, utility, or some other unique feature. Motor vehicles, tools and other items subject to vigorous use in contrast, may be considered antiques in the U.S. if older than 25 years, and some electronic gadgets of more recent vintage may be considered antiques

2) Any piece of furniture or decorative object or the like produced in a former period and valuable because of its beauty or rarity.

In Europe, "antique" surely does not apply to some object 25 years old, but the object should be at least 100 years old. And I believe that professional antique dealers would not consider an Indonesian item "antique" if it were only 25 years old.

In my post, I wrote:

In Bali, there are practically no real "antiques" to speak of.

Notice that I did NOT say that there were NO antiques in Bali. Furthermore, there was a bias in my statement, in so far as I had implicitly in mind, Bali "antiques." My apologies to you for my bias.

Anyway, I believe that you are 100% correct when you say that "he" (I)

…a. knows nothing about antiques

(see my statements above, describing me as an expert antique dealer)

…or b. never have been on Bali

(you must mean "to" Bali). But you should give me some credit: I am in the process of saving my money, so that I can some day visit the place, which by all accounts sounds pretty neat.

…or c. is totally blind

.

You must be right (although I don't need a white cane yet), because a friend of mine, just returning from Bali, told me that one cannot take a step on Bali without bumping into an "antique," in Kuta, Seminyak, you name it, but especially at the Ubud market, and at Pasar Seni in Sukawati.

PS. By the way, last time you were in Bali, you must have seen lots of "antiques," bukan?" :lol:

 

[tintin]

My last question to you, rien.gluvers, was a rhetorical one, because I know you must have seen lots of antiques when you were in Bali: there are even signs on some shops along some roads, which advertise

"Antiques made to order"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jimbo]

Rien

My advice was gien honestly because he wanted to set up a business. I presumed that this would be some kind of shop where he would sell mainly to tourists. Tourists have little time or inclination to apply for export licenses and so I thought there was little merit in trying to give more detailed answers to very vague questions. I also asked what was his target market without getting an answer.

Your very good friend Roy said that you cannot export antiques without a licence so I am guilty as charged in not adding this on to my previous statement.

I shall be watching your further posts with interest to see what advice you give to those that enter here. In fact I believe most new folks should be sent to you as the rest of us obviously know so very little.

 

[rien.gluvers]

Re: RE: Antique Hunting

In fact I believe most new folks should be sent to you as the rest of us obviously know so very little.

Not a good idea. I know (most of) my limitations and try to act accordingly.

 

[zonobono]

it's christmas time and everybody is in a good mood :lol:

 

[Roy]

I thought I would revive this string since it seemed to end on a sour note. Moreover, in reading this string, I haven’t read much of anything that offers factual or accurate information. Additionally, this is the area in which I have either made my living, or at least supplemented my income since my college days.

The very mention of the word antique in association with Bali will often result in a raised eyebrow from many who have tried to find one that was not “made to order.”

There is a very good reason for this, as for certain, the vast majority of what is touted here in Bali as antique is likely no older than a new born baby. That is not as a result of a proactive scam, but rather it is a more loose association of the word “antique” to the look of antique.

In Bali, three kinds of items which are called antique can be found:

A) Total fabrications or reproductions made from new materials but with a patina (a finish or surface) imparting an aged look.

B) Partial fabrications using authentically old elements in combination with new elements to create an even more convincing appearance. This phenomenon is most often found in antique furniture where old parts are combined, or re-cycled with new parts to present a great looking item that overall can appear completely original.

C) Authentically old and original antique items that are not fabrications and are of a genuine age consistent to the appearance.

Obviously, pieces that fit into category A or B are very easy to find all around Bali. The shops here are burgeoning with such pieces, and they make up a large percentage of what should be classified as production arts and crafts. Such shops can be readily found all along Jalan Legian in Kuta, areas of Seminyak, Legian and Jimbaran, within hotel gift shops, all along the by pass road heading north from those points, Ubud, the environs of Ubud, north Bali, etc, etc,...ad infinitum. For the great majority of visitors to Bali, such pieces “fit the bill” for exactly what they are looking for...a highly decorative piece to bring home and enjoy for its decorative only qualities.

However, for the purist, or one who is really looking for authentic items, the items I classify as C, pieces can still be found, but that requires the same effort as is most likely required in finding genuine articles from your own culture back home. In other words, there are just as many, if not more non antique pieces being touted as antique in the Portobello Road market London, as are here in Bali.

While it is hopefully understood that I am not about to give away all my trade secrets, I am happy to share some of what I have learned over the years.

In Bali, and for that matter, most everywhere in Indonesia, one of the most likely areas of authentic items to be encountered is trade ceramics. The vast majority of these will be from China, and dating as early as the T’ang Dynasty, and the Sung Dynasty, when trade with the Majapahit empire intensified greatly. However, pieces from Vietnam and Thailand can be found here as well the result of intense inter-coastal trading.

Indonesian soil (clay) is not suitable for the high firing necessary for total vitrification as with stone ware or porcelain. Only low fired earthenware was made in Indonesia. As such, the most popular trade items imported into Indonesia during the first millennium was in fact ceramics.

I am still amazed on visiting other compounds here in Bali to occasionally find authentic plates, bowls, pots and storage jars dating from the Ming Dynasty, (16th century) and earlier, still in daily use. Their condition is usually not good...chips, cracks, worn over-glazes, etc. but nonetheless, here they are. It’s pointless to ask anyone in the compound, “where and when did you get this?” The answer is always the same...a shrugged shoulder, and a look of confusion as to why one would ever ask such a question in the first place.

Another source that has often been fertile to me involves temple re-construction. In such endeavors, some amazing sculpture, both in wood and stone may well be chosen by those Balinese in charge of the pura to be replaced by new materials. Temple cloths are also often replaced...the whole idea being to keep the God’s home as good looking and visually appealing as possible. By selling such items...those designated to be replaced, funds are quickly raised to cover the costs of re-construction or “face lifting.” Those items are generally not of great age, as in qualifying as antiquity, nor are they of cultural significance as to be better staying in Bali.

A third and fertile source can be found with Indonesian collectors. While it may seem surprising to some that there are Indonesian collectors here, the fact is, there are quite a number. As with collectors the world over, they will often sell a piece to help fund the acquisition of something else currently absent from their collection, and of great desire. Such collectors are here and some of the finest pieces we have ever been able to purchase have come from them.

As a final word, and contrary to often read misconceptions, authentic antiques and art pieces are most generally legal for export out of Indonesia. There are exceptions, most notably being stone carved sculptures of real antiquity and tribal art material containing parts from endangered animal species. Compliance to Indonesian cultural property laws, as well as international treaties such as CITES and UNESCO can easily be arranged through the Department of Archaeology. Photo certificates certifying the age, as well as approval for export can be obtained from this department, and acknowledged credible dealers are able to supply that document for such items.

For the novice, this field can seem cloaked in mystery and full of dangerous pot holes. It is. It is no different here than anywhere else in the world, including the well known markets of NewYork or London. Cheers, and for the cognoscenti, good hunting.

 

[DCC]

I finally read the last post, Roy. Well said!

 

[don]

Hi Roy,
I am not sure that the definition of "antique" has a universal application (although I believe that it does), but that definition requires that an object be at least 100 years old.
Don

 

[Roy]

Hi Don. Yes, that is true, and it derives mainly from the duty (customs) regulations in many countries, specifically the US, which allows for duty free import of any object which is deemed antique, further described (in the customs regulations) as being 100 years of age. There are exceptions, for example, oriental rugs need only be 50 years old to be called antique, (and imported duty free), and motor vehicles, which I believe are considered antique if 25 or more years of age.

Tribal arts, while not specifically addressed in US customs regulations, are normally considered antique if 25 or more years of age.

As I mention in my previous post, here in Bali, the term “antique” is very loosely applied to mean virtually anything that “has the look” of an antique. However, that loose application of the word is not unique to Bali, as there are thousands of antiques shops in both the US and UK full of wares that are hardly 100 years old. Caveat emptor applies both here in Bali, and anywhere else in the world, when it comes to antiques.

DCC...glad to hear you liked my post. It’s a pleasure to hear that my contributions are appreciated once in a while!

 

[sandy yong]

java

id say explore java. lfor example BLITAR. not only its authentic but also cheaper. i bought an antique house off the woods there made of old wood for unbelievably cheap bargain.

 

[denee]

Merry Xmas to all of you that celebrate xmas or to all of you who have it as part of your culture.
I've just awoken with a bit of a headache, but I'm hoping that will go with the seafood lunch & champagne today
Good to see Tintin & Jimbo are more understanding than some on this forum.
And you guys may have just saved a newbie from becoming extinct to this.
I have learnt a lot from this forum & see that it is more of a challenge to keep everyone happy, than to get any useful info about the topic I posted.
Just keep this in mind to all you that doubt what I'm going to do- I am not going to be deterred by any negativeness & nothing posted by any of you sceptics on this topic will stop me from doing what I want to achieve.

Hi all..

Sometimes Indonesian people itself is confused , they stuck with their own rare/antiques.. how much should i sell, where to sell, etc etc. they always ended with the broker who resell it again to a bule like you.
They sometimes lack of information but need the money badly.
They are a flea market in Jakarta..
If you are lucky, you might find a good original antiques, If not you will only get the just replica. Lots of bad people among market .. If you go/ digg your self as a bule, you will be screwed. Sometimes the small trader put an advertise in local web.
Like me.
so, do not give up !
I my self selling old coins, bird of paradise(offset), Boat(perahu) made from cloves , and tribal ethnic (carving woods ,etc) from Papua . all rare & more than 40 years.
Sometimes I helped providing bule's to look good's what they want. :icon_biggrin:

I ,my self .. selling candle. hehehe !! :icon_biggrin:

 

[gilbert de jong]

I think you would have better sale numbers, if you would stop referring to non-indonesian as a BULE

 

[Bower]

Interesting thread.
My first trip to Bali in February and as an antique dealer i will see for myself.
I have purchased antiques in Thailand,Cambodia,Laos,Vietnam and Burma.
There seems to me no better way to find your way around a country and meet some facinating people than hunting for antiques.

 

[mat]

Interesting thread.
My first trip to Bali in February and as an antique dealer i will see for myself.
I have purchased antiques in Thailand,Cambodia,Laos,Vietnam and Burma.
There seems to me no better way to find your way around a country and meet some facinating people than hunting for antiques.

I was an Antique dealer for 35 years and I can honestly say it is easier finding Balinese antiques out of the country than in it. Good luck.

 

[Bower]

I was an Antique dealer for 35 years and I can honestly say it is easier finding Balinese antiques out of the country than in it. Good luck.

Many thanks mat,

I am visiting friends in Bali for a holiday and so its the same old story, on holiday but cannot leave the trade alone !
Its always good to find even just one good item as a keepsake.