ronb

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2007
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Ubud, Bali
In the Suharto years, there was suppression of many "freedoms" including the freedom to express more extreme views. Since 1998 there has been a new "freedom", and much of it is encouraging, like a more outspoken press, people power expressed through Facebook and Twitter. But there also has been stories like this to remind you of the different sides to "freedom" - and the politicians seem reluctant to condemn it.

But western countries also give tacit support to some more extreme views. In Australia, assylum seekers are treated badly, but many people support this, and hence the politicians tread very warily on this issue. Maybe it's not all that different.
 

goldminer

Member
Apr 16, 2008
607
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Sanur/Sunrise Dam Gold Mine
In the Suharto years, there was suppression of many "freedoms" including the freedom to express more extreme views. Since 1998 there has been a new "freedom", and much of it is encouraging, like a more outspoken press, people power expressed through Facebook and Twitter. But there also has been stories like this to remind you of the different sides to "freedom" - and the politicians seem reluctant to condemn it.

But western countries also give tacit support to some more extreme views. In Australia, assylum seekers are treated badly, but many people support this, and hence the politicians tread very warily on this issue. Maybe it's not all that different.
Ron, am not sure what you mean by "asylum seekers are treated badly in Australia" What do you mean?:icon_rolleyes:
 
Asylum shoppers is more appropriate, there are over a 100 in kerbokan you can check em out on the beach in the early hours, we can go to lombok and mataram were the aussie taxpayer is paying for their hotel accomodation. As for australia treating them bad there is not a country north of darwing that has accepted an asylum shopper or seeker as a resident in the last two decades? singapore, here, malaysia, brunei, thailand, vietnam, south korea, japan. So lets call a spade a spade they are doing bloody great on centrelink payments mate
 

bantch

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Jul 26, 2011
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Asylum shoppers is more appropriate, there are over a 100 in kerbokan you can check em out on the beach in the early hours, we can go to lombok and mataram were the aussie taxpayer is paying for their hotel accomodation. As for australia treating them bad there is not a country north of darwing that has accepted an asylum shopper or seeker as a resident in the last two decades? singapore, here, malaysia, brunei, thailand, vietnam, south korea, japan. So lets call a spade a spade they are doing bloody great on centrelink payments mate

That is just aweful. What a horrible thing
 

Celyna

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Jul 18, 2011
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That is just aweful. What a horrible thing

It is not aweful, it is a fact. So these "asylum seekers" are supposidly coming from war torn, third world countries, am I right? If that is the case, why do they spend $10,000 to come to say Australia by boat. A true Asylum seeker does not have that sort of coin. As an Australian taxpayer I am sick of supporting these people who get given shelter and food (which apparently they "didn't" have in their country) and in return they riot and burn the accommodation. Yes, lets bring those sort of people into the community! And don't even get me started on the ranga!
 

Markit

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Sep 3, 2007
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Would you ru-shaggers stop wittering on about things nobody in the world gives a shite about. Christ on a Crutch I just saw a stat saying that if we were all to live as close together as they do in Hong Kong then all 7 Billion of us would comfortably fit on Australia!

So SFU about too many people living there - it's only got 25 million now!!! Mexico city has more... and better food.

You afraid your going to get over run with Indonesians and then they'll ask you all to piss off back to England like they did in South Africa and Rodesia- no fecking chance mate!:icon_biggrin:
 

goldminer

Member
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It is not aweful, it is a fact. So these "asylum seekers" are supposidly coming from war torn, third world countries, am I right? If that is the case, why do they spend $10,000 to come to say Australia by boat. A true Asylum seeker does not have that sort of coin. As an Australian taxpayer I am sick of supporting these people who get given shelter and food (which apparently they "didn't" have in their country) and in return they riot and burn the accommodation. Yes, lets bring those sort of people into the community! And don't even get me started on the ranga!
Springer and Celyna, my thoughta exactly, couldnt have said it better. The asylum seekers are lucky i am not in charge, the boats wouldnt even reach land! :icon_evil:
 

ronb

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Aug 14, 2007
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Ron, am not sure what you mean by "asylum seekers are treated badly in Australia" What do you mean?:icon_rolleyes:

I started to reply to this yesterday - but it seemed to get lost.

They are locked up in what is effectively a jail, they are not charged with any offence, and there is no idea of when anything will be decided. So that is what I meant by "treated badly".

Australia has signed a UN convention on refugees, that gives "genuine refugees" some rights like entering countires without a visa. More information at Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the first step is to determine if they are "genuine" as defined by the convention. I they are not they can be deported - but sometimes deciding where to is a problem. If they are genuine, then they have some rights and I think this means they can't be deported - so that is why Australia is so keen to see that they are not on Australian soil when their refugee status is being determined.

But my point was that Australian public opinion is strongly anti refugee, and most politicians are very aware of this and are not keen to protect the "rights" of asylum seekers.

I see this as in some ways similar to Indonesian public opinion being anti Ahmadiyah which makes both politicians and courts go lightly on the lynch mobs - which is what was upsetting Markit in the beginning of the thread.
 
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Sully

Member
Feb 3, 2010
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Oz
They are locked up because they have to be processed before being allowed into our country. We advertise in countries what will happen when you come to Australia illegally so they know before they come what to expect. They don't like, too bad. 150 or so 'boat people' were recently housed in a tourist motel in Brisbane for several months because there was nowhere to put them. The Australian government did not tell anybody it was found out because the locals noticed guards "to stop people coming in i.e. media etc" not the people going out.

Personally I do not want Australia to turn into England. And yes, the only way I can tell what has happened in England is by reading articles and watching BBC Knowledge shows. Are they true I do not know but I do know that I do not want Australia to be turned into how England is portrayed today. We have already a case in Sydney of a Australian who converted to Islam bashed by other people in his mosque because he was seen in a photo on some networking page holding a can of beer. Sydney Muslims also want Sharia law introduced legally for matters of marriage and loans.

All very well but I would like to see my country look after our elderly, homeless and Indigenous people before we look after refugees. If the Australian people had their way no refugges or asylum seekers would be allowed in Australia until we tidy up our own back yard.
 

Adam

Member
Jul 21, 2006
538
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Western Australia
Mark, once again you come in and pollute a thread like no other, the verbal diarrhoea you spruik as 'comedy' is pathetic and embarrasment to yourself. You obviously have no clue about what you are commentating about (like a vast majority of things), may I suggest drinking a big,big glass of shut the f up. Its getting tiring.

Righto, moving right along, now I've vented my spleen and got that off my chest (it's been building up for a while).

My issue is this people seem to travel thru a dozen or so perfectly polically stable and safe countries to end up on our doorstep. Why? Well, thats a no brainer. So in my mind they immediately lose their refugee (if they are indeed ‘refugees’ to begin with) status soon as they step foot from one safe country to another. Ron, the people you are refering to are illegal migrants, queue jumpers, trying to get an easy entry into the country under the guise of 'asylum'. If life was as genuinely bad as they claim they are running away from, I would have thought that immigration detention centres would not be that bad at all in contrast. I have no sympathy for them and would prefer to see my tax dollars being spent on the welfare of people from our own region such as SE Asia and Oceania. That is where our responsibilities lie, not with these people. I wonder how much support the wealthy Arab countries provide to their Muslim ‘brothers’…..

Now going back to the guts of the argument, whether rightly or wrongly, one of the principles of democracy is that of majority rule. Minorities, I think, sometimes fail to grasp this concept and end up becoming their own worst enemies. They can tend to become deliberately provocative, rather than accepting a more humble status and pushing their agendas politely and passively. Kinda like poking a hornets nest then complaining you’ve been stung. No one in their right mind could condemn the barbaric attack that these animals have committed against another human being, but we don’t know the full story. If I jumped on the loudspeaker in my wife’s Muslim village spruiking atheism while the call to prayer is going on, I’m sure I’d get a whack in the head. Despite this being my genuine belief, I’m not gunna do that, because it would be inflammatory and dumb. So instead, I sit there quietly, sippin’ my Bundy rum, privately glad that in my own little minority that I know I’ve got my priorities right. Nobody gives me grief, I don’t give them grief. Simple. There’s more to this story than meets the eye, I think.
 

Markit

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Sep 3, 2007
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World population in one city - how big?

Hey Adam still up for some mental spring cleaning I see.

If the world’s population lived in one city… Per Square Mile

Just as an aside this was in fact a thread I started so if it is "getting tiring" as you say then don't bother reading my threads or better yet start one of your own!

Novel idea that? Can't understand these forum snipers that sculk for years and bring nothing to the mix except an occasional burst of vitriol. At least my vitriol is regular :icon_biggrin:

Oh and by the way the majority of the poplulation of Oz got there as refugees from British justice or "prisoners" as they are more commonly called so I do find it a bit rich when you now want to exclude people that have done absolutely nothing but searched for a better life - as opposed to having been "punished" into it.

Judging from the rest of your post I now find it much easier to understand where Rupert Murdoch got his ideals and readership from - it would seem that his "Sun" and "News of the World" brand of thinking (if one can call it that) are widely spread in Oz and he left the country in safe hands.

On second thoughts it might be better if you did build a bloody great wall around yourselves there and not let anyone else in - Oh, but you can't get out either OK?
 

Adam

Member
Jul 21, 2006
538
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Western Australia
Mark, Mark, Mark, as usual the typing fingers are in top gear but the brain has a broken crankshaft. Such a smooth machine you are.

Wow! The link you provided is so,so clever and backs up your argument so well !!! Perhaps we can all move to Antartica, that place is even less densely populated than we are ?? Only problem is there is a little issue called reality and it is something you seem to find trouble grasping.

If you had ANY idea you would realise that as big as Australia is, we are probably already overpopulated. You claim to be from a 'sustainability' mindset, so surely even you can even grasp that concept. A lot of boffins believe that our sustainable carrying capacity should even be as low as 10 million people.

There is nothing wrong in us as Australians wanting to protect our way of life, because it's a good one (possibly the best) and we've worked hard to acheive it. A quarter of our population are migrants (i.e. not born in Australia) so I think we are doing our fair share (around 8% in the UK, I believe). How dare you suggest we are xenophobic and would like to build up a wall to keep everyone out. Again, this seems to me like another fine and regular example of you talking out of your ass, because if you have actually been here and witnessed things for yourself you would realise we are very much in fact a multicultural society.

As for your Rupert reference, well all I can say is the Sun and News of the World was distributed in the UK right? And had some of the highest circulations of any British newspaper, right? And not distributed in Australia, right? You figure it out....

Over all this time, I've really noticed you don't like us Australians very much, do you Mark? Is this a jealousy thing? Or because we look the same but behave and think very different?
 
I see rons point re the refugee convention but no one north of darwin has signed it, therefore, the majority of countries in asia re right in claiming australias position is an enabler of the problem and not a solution to it. The asylum shoppers are detained because they entered australia (maritime border) without a visa nor passports (dumped) and are usually afghans. The other issue i have is not a single boat has been intercepted south of pakistani waters, nor india nor thailand. This implies there are no boats considering the usa has part of its fleet stationed in the south of paki waters. There are also no land routes according to the UN while there are many UN refugee camps in pakistan, a majority in the case of afghanistan are flying to malaysia (no visa required) then boat it to indonesia and claim to be refugee heading to australia (after dumping their passports).

The money comes from mosques and western union transfers and it is a shame that those who are waiting in line, confirmed as aslyum or refugees miss out by those with the cash.

Now if i was in Indo without a passport or visa i would be in the slammer and not an open detention centre as the one in kerbokan has one strand of wire on it, one in mataram well its a hotel, one in makassar has an open door. MMm
 

Celyna

New Member
Jul 18, 2011
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www.balifragrance.com.au
Now now boys. I have to agree with some of the comments Adam makes in regards to Australia. I suppose living here and seeing our pensioners and homeless people doing it so hard it does make us angry. I, as does many people feel that there should be more of a balance between cleaning up our own back yard and fulfilling our obligations under the signed arrangement with the UN. What makes people angry is that we see the real refugees sitting in camps with their children. They have no money and suffer terribly. Then we see a boat come, given cigarettes, mobile phones and other goods. They dispose of all identification which then increases the time to properly identify them and they then riot and burn down the facilities. I wonder when I see this if the person sitting in the camp with flies crawling all over them holding their starving children would do the same. It is these people that are "queue jumpers" that are stoping the people in the camps from coming in. As far as locking them up I am told that on Christmas Island they do get to move around freely on the island and go to the shops and mingle with the locals. Again agree with Adam that this is hardly persecution.

Not to mention that fact that in some schools Christmas carols and the celebration has been cancelled and ham is no longer on the menu in some schools because it offends the Muslims. If I went to an Iran beach and went for a swim in my bathers how would I go? Their land their rules.
 

Adam

Member
Jul 21, 2006
538
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Western Australia
Celyna,

My apologies as I realise nobody likes to read bickering, but there has been a certain obnoxious blight on this forum for quite some time and sometimes it needs to be addressed. Sorry again ;)

Adz
 

gilbert de jong

Active Member
Jan 20, 2009
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Panji, Singaraja.
hmmm...heavy topic.
I can see both sides, maybe don't quite understand both sides but I can see them :icon_lol:

can anyone answer me how the australian population is divided by/in religion, ehm strange sentence...
I mean for example like, 20% are kristen, 40% are hindu, 40% are atheist.know what I mean?
thanks in forehand.
 

ronb

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2007
2,241
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Ubud, Bali
......................
can anyone answer me how the australian population is divided by/in religion, ehm strange sentence...
I mean for example like, 20% are kristen, 40% are hindu, 40% are atheist.know what I mean?
thanks in forehand.

When there is a census in Australia, there is a question on religion. From wikipedia
In the 21st century, religion in Australia remains dominated demographically by Christianity, with 64% of the population claiming at least nominal adherence to the Christian faith as of 2007, although less than a quarter of those attend church weekly.[2] 18.7% of Australians declared "no-religion" on the 2006 Census with a further 11.2% failing to answer the question.[2][3] The remaining population is a diverse group that includes fast-growing Islamic and Buddhist communities.[4]
The complete article is at Religion in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Markit

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2007
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Karangasem, Bali
Adam it would appear that the argument is mine since you have devolved to personal attacks and insults.

All the things you have said can and have been refuted many times and in many places by people far dumber than I am - if you didn't understand or accept them then I refuse to waste any of my valuable time on trying to enlighten the terminally stupid.

You know, there's none so blind as they that won't see.
[1738 Swift Polite Conversation iii. 191]