I just heard some disturbing news for me. Someone told me that incase of an indonesian nameholder and he or she dies, the ownership will pass on the his heirs and that the can undo the contracts you made with the original nameholder. Can anyone tell me if this is correct
That is correct.
Unless there is a section in the contract where the inheritage is "arranged". Not only on the Indonesian side, but also on the foreigners side.
Unless there is a section in the contract where the inheritage is "arranged". Not only on the Indonesian side, but also on the foreigners side.
From what I've been able to find out talking to lawyers and real estate agents in Bali, both local and expat, with the power of attorney structured correctly, whoever's name is on the land title cant do anything without your approval, and you can change the nominated person without too much trouble if need be.
I've still got work to do to really get it buttoned down though.....I'd be devastated to lose something I have invested considerable time , effort and money into.
But it can be done, people are obviously doing it. Not sure if not having any family link to an Indonesian might work against me and I'm open to any other tips from those who have already made the move.
Later
I've still got work to do to really get it buttoned down though.....I'd be devastated to lose something I have invested considerable time , effort and money into.
But it can be done, people are obviously doing it. Not sure if not having any family link to an Indonesian might work against me and I'm open to any other tips from those who have already made the move.
Later
True, but effectively enforceable only if you or your attorney holds the land certificate. Good luck with that one, as it is tough to negotiate, but I’ve heard of it being done. The problem I have seen most often with my expat friends, is that the land (certificate) holder goes off to a bank, and takes a nice big fat loan on it. When payments aren’t being made, can you guess who the bank comes calling on? Yup, you got, it, the lessee! The bank of course has no legal hold on the lessee, but then again, the lessee has no legal hold on the certificate either, but rather only the person in who’s name the certificate is issued. Neither liens or mortgages are recorded on land certificates, aka titles here. All you will see recorded on them are sales transactions, viz, change of ownership…so you can find yourself easily against the wall…the bank wanting to foreclose on the loan issued to the certificate holder, and you, wanting to enforce the lease to that land.
Keep in mind that what I am writing of certainly applies to the Gianyar Regency. I don’t know for sure if all the regencies in Bali operate the same way.
That you are using lawyers and not notaries is excellent. Notaries, (or notaris) as they are called here, cannot argue a case in the Regency courts, whereas a lawyer, should it come to that, can. When we buy land, we always use a notary, but that is only because the land certificates are all in my wife’s name. However, in my view anyway, any land lease transaction, or purchase using a PMA or Indonesian sponsor should always be done through an attorney. And for certain, possession of the certificate of the land you are to lease, if that’s what you decide to do, or buy through a third party (Indonesian), should be held not by the leasor, or third party, but rather your attorney.
A valuable tip not from me, but from expats I have known who were left holding the "short end of the stick." :shock:
Re: RE: Lost my House to a Balinese in Ubud
I don't want to be indelicate here Alice, but I've never heard so many hard luck stories come from one person in my life.
I think there's something fishy going on here.
Sorry to disagree with your post. I have known several women with lives that seem similar to Alice. I have a friend going through hell right now and you would probably find her situation "fishy" too.
I don't want to be indelicate here Alice, but I've never heard so many hard luck stories come from one person in my life.
I think there's something fishy going on here.
Sorry to disagree with your post. I have known several women with lives that seem similar to Alice. I have a friend going through hell right now and you would probably find her situation "fishy" too.
We are (still) thinking of a move to Bali. My husband is Indonesian, so we would be looking to buy a house freehold in his name. But can anyone tell me what would happen to the ownership if anything should happen to him? Not something I like to think of, but something that needs to be considered.
:?: What is wrong with renting property ? Why would you buy property with the obvious risks of losing it because of corruption and chicanery. I love Bali also but keep money where it spins off income; cetainlydont put it where you might lose it all because the sytem is corrupt. If you like to gamble try VEGAS ...you get kissed, and the drinks are free. how much can it cost to rent what you want ? I mean if you are committed GO FOR IT, but remember the difference between involvment and commitment is likened to a ham and eggs breakfast. The chicken is involved; The pig is committed !
Re: RE: Lost my House to a Balinese in Ubud
Normally, it would be inherited by his family.....
But, if I am well informed there is a law that says that in this case, you as the foreigner, have a year to sell it.
mariathe said:
Normally, it would be inherited by his family.....
But, if I am well informed there is a law that says that in this case, you as the foreigner, have a year to sell it.
As Bert alludes to, this is a very dicey subject. It’s not as bad as when the mixed spouse is the male as opposed to the female however.
In the case of the male spouse being Indonesian I understand that legally binding agreements can be executed wherein the male states that in the event of his untimely death, the property reverts in ownership to “so and so” (an Indonesian family member in most cases), and that an agreement is entered, between that likely family person and the spouse, wherein the foreign spouse is allowed to live at that residence for as long as she wants. In absence of such an agreement, my understanding is that Bert is totally correct.
If children are involved, it gets more complicated. If the children of the mixed couple are Indonesian, and their father is Indonesian, then no problems with the land transfer to their name(s). However, if the children are under the citizenship of the foreign spouse, and have not opted for Indonesian citizenship, (likely because they are under age) then once again, in that “last will and testament” (lack of better words to describe it), the Indonesian father could stipulate that once, and only upon any of his children exercising their right to Indonesian citizenship, the property then reverts to them.
For the mixed couple wherein the male is the foreigner, it gets much more complicated, and whatever happens will require the love and trust of the nuclear family of the female who has passed, leaving the foreign male spouse, and perhaps children. This is my own personal situation, and as I understand it, no written agreements or any legal documents are available to protect either me, or our three boys unless by way of a PMA, or licensed foreign investor…which is quite expensive.
In my own case, I can only rely on the bond of my Balinese family to pull us through something as horrible as the loss of my Balinese wife. Legally, I am well aware that I am very vulnerable, but relying on closer ties than the law, I am very comfortable, and frankly, I never give it a second thought.
As a final note, any such agreements discussed here must be undertaken by an attorney and not a notaris. Notaris are fine for land certificates and other matters, but if ever needed to be argued in court, an attorney is the only way your case could, or would be effectively presented. OK, that’s it.
PS, as a quick afterthought, it is comforting to know that immigration issues, marriage laws, issues of spousal rights over their children are all currently on the National DPR’s table. With such changes in family and immigration laws one can easily assume that property rights will soon follow. As Martha Stewart would say, “that’s a good thing.”
PPS…as a final, and I promise, final point, in the words of one of the preeminent attorneys in Indonesia as put it to me, “the only agreements worthwhile are the ones already upheld in court in favor of the Tamu.”
In the case of the male spouse being Indonesian I understand that legally binding agreements can be executed wherein the male states that in the event of his untimely death, the property reverts in ownership to “so and so” (an Indonesian family member in most cases), and that an agreement is entered, between that likely family person and the spouse, wherein the foreign spouse is allowed to live at that residence for as long as she wants. In absence of such an agreement, my understanding is that Bert is totally correct.
If children are involved, it gets more complicated. If the children of the mixed couple are Indonesian, and their father is Indonesian, then no problems with the land transfer to their name(s). However, if the children are under the citizenship of the foreign spouse, and have not opted for Indonesian citizenship, (likely because they are under age) then once again, in that “last will and testament” (lack of better words to describe it), the Indonesian father could stipulate that once, and only upon any of his children exercising their right to Indonesian citizenship, the property then reverts to them.
For the mixed couple wherein the male is the foreigner, it gets much more complicated, and whatever happens will require the love and trust of the nuclear family of the female who has passed, leaving the foreign male spouse, and perhaps children. This is my own personal situation, and as I understand it, no written agreements or any legal documents are available to protect either me, or our three boys unless by way of a PMA, or licensed foreign investor…which is quite expensive.
In my own case, I can only rely on the bond of my Balinese family to pull us through something as horrible as the loss of my Balinese wife. Legally, I am well aware that I am very vulnerable, but relying on closer ties than the law, I am very comfortable, and frankly, I never give it a second thought.
As a final note, any such agreements discussed here must be undertaken by an attorney and not a notaris. Notaris are fine for land certificates and other matters, but if ever needed to be argued in court, an attorney is the only way your case could, or would be effectively presented. OK, that’s it.
PS, as a quick afterthought, it is comforting to know that immigration issues, marriage laws, issues of spousal rights over their children are all currently on the National DPR’s table. With such changes in family and immigration laws one can easily assume that property rights will soon follow. As Martha Stewart would say, “that’s a good thing.”
PPS…as a final, and I promise, final point, in the words of one of the preeminent attorneys in Indonesia as put it to me, “the only agreements worthwhile are the ones already upheld in court in favor of the Tamu.”
Sorry...one more PPPS...and that is that it is important to consider that all of these issues fall under the jurisdiction of the regency government, meaning, what goes on in say Denpasar can be quite different than that what happens in Singaraja or Gianyar. As I said in the beginning of this post, it’s dicey.
I've been waiting for 16 years for a change in these antiquated laws and just when I was getting hopeful, I read the story in the Jakarta Post today about the Supreme Court thinking about having foreign males who want to marry Indonesian women pay a 500 million deposit. What is that all about? I love a bit of the absurd, but someone here has gone off the deep end.
Geez Louise Dr. Bruce! When I first read your post, it crossed my mind that you maybe were still celebrating the end of your Little League season. Too much celebrating!
BUT…here it is, in all its utter and indescribable “Monkey Forest” logic! Sorry Bert, but URLs to the Jakarta Post are only alive for a day or so, thus the need to copy the whole bloody and most ridiculous thing!
This is the week of the three most bloody stupid things I’ve ever heard in seven years of living on Bali:
1) Let’s let Bashir go free for good behavior during the holy fasting month of Ramadan.
2) Let’s make JI a political party so Australian pressure to ban it goes away.
3) Let’s make foreigners deposit Rp 500 million in a government bank before they can marry an Indonesian woman.
Thanks Doc! You’ve made my night! Just when I was thinking that a “hat trick” of utter stupidity wasn’t possible, there you go and ruin my night!
Here's the article, as Dr. Bruce says, part of today's issue of the Jakarta Post:
Want to marry RI woman? Pay Rp 500m in deposit
Muninggar Sri Saraswati, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta
If you happen to be a not-so-rich foreign gentleman who plans to marry an Indonesian lady here, you'd better tie the knot quickly as the authorities may put an expensive price tag on Indonesian women in the future.
Unknown to many, the Supreme Court is mulling requiring foreign men to deposit some Rp 500 million (about US$50,000) before marrying Indonesian female citizens.
The idea was recommended during a recent Supreme Court national working meeting, which was attended by the Supreme Court leadership and top judges from across the country. It was not immediately clear how the proposed scheme would be implemented.
But according to a document studied at the meeting, such a regulation is applied in Egypt, where foreign men are required to pay a sum of money into a state bank before marrying Egyptian citizens.
"In a bid to protect women, the state of Egypt requires every (male) foreigner who plans to marry an Egyptian citizen to pay 25,000 Egyptian pounds into the Nasser Bank as a bond," said the document, a copy of which was made available to The Jakarta Post over the weekend.
The Supreme Court may likely follow up on the idea by submitting it to the government or the House of Representatives, which would draft the ruling.
The recommendation by the male-dominated Supreme Court will add to the complications faced by transnational couples wishing to register their marriages here.
Many consider the current Indonesian law on citizenship as failing to protect transnational couples, particularly marriages between Indonesian women and foreign men.
Such couples must go through lengthy and complicated immigration and other processes to legalize their marriage under Indonesian law.
More problems usually occur later since the Citizenship Law (No. 62/1958), which applies the outdated bloodline principle, does not allow foreign men married to Indonesian women to change nationality, while any children of the marriage will automatically take the same citizenship as the father.
The non-Indonesian husband and children are then treated in much the same way as foreign tourists or visitors. It means they must fly to neighboring countries to renew their visas should the family decide to live in Indonesia.
According to the law as it now stands, when an Indonesian woman who is married to a foreign man dies, her name cannot be inherited by her husband and children. The Indonesian government instead auctions off the property within one year, leaving the mourning family homeless.
The unfavorable situation has forced many Indonesian women to marry their foreign fiances abroad, although this does not actually solve the problem should they decide to live in Indonesia.
The Ministry of Justice and Human Rights has submitted a bill to amend the 1958 Citizenship Law to the House of Representatives. However, the House has yet to list it for further deliberation.
BUT…here it is, in all its utter and indescribable “Monkey Forest” logic! Sorry Bert, but URLs to the Jakarta Post are only alive for a day or so, thus the need to copy the whole bloody and most ridiculous thing!
This is the week of the three most bloody stupid things I’ve ever heard in seven years of living on Bali:
1) Let’s let Bashir go free for good behavior during the holy fasting month of Ramadan.
2) Let’s make JI a political party so Australian pressure to ban it goes away.
3) Let’s make foreigners deposit Rp 500 million in a government bank before they can marry an Indonesian woman.
Thanks Doc! You’ve made my night! Just when I was thinking that a “hat trick” of utter stupidity wasn’t possible, there you go and ruin my night!
Here's the article, as Dr. Bruce says, part of today's issue of the Jakarta Post:
Want to marry RI woman? Pay Rp 500m in deposit
Muninggar Sri Saraswati, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta
If you happen to be a not-so-rich foreign gentleman who plans to marry an Indonesian lady here, you'd better tie the knot quickly as the authorities may put an expensive price tag on Indonesian women in the future.
Unknown to many, the Supreme Court is mulling requiring foreign men to deposit some Rp 500 million (about US$50,000) before marrying Indonesian female citizens.
The idea was recommended during a recent Supreme Court national working meeting, which was attended by the Supreme Court leadership and top judges from across the country. It was not immediately clear how the proposed scheme would be implemented.
But according to a document studied at the meeting, such a regulation is applied in Egypt, where foreign men are required to pay a sum of money into a state bank before marrying Egyptian citizens.
"In a bid to protect women, the state of Egypt requires every (male) foreigner who plans to marry an Egyptian citizen to pay 25,000 Egyptian pounds into the Nasser Bank as a bond," said the document, a copy of which was made available to The Jakarta Post over the weekend.
The Supreme Court may likely follow up on the idea by submitting it to the government or the House of Representatives, which would draft the ruling.
The recommendation by the male-dominated Supreme Court will add to the complications faced by transnational couples wishing to register their marriages here.
Many consider the current Indonesian law on citizenship as failing to protect transnational couples, particularly marriages between Indonesian women and foreign men.
Such couples must go through lengthy and complicated immigration and other processes to legalize their marriage under Indonesian law.
More problems usually occur later since the Citizenship Law (No. 62/1958), which applies the outdated bloodline principle, does not allow foreign men married to Indonesian women to change nationality, while any children of the marriage will automatically take the same citizenship as the father.
The non-Indonesian husband and children are then treated in much the same way as foreign tourists or visitors. It means they must fly to neighboring countries to renew their visas should the family decide to live in Indonesia.
According to the law as it now stands, when an Indonesian woman who is married to a foreign man dies, her name cannot be inherited by her husband and children. The Indonesian government instead auctions off the property within one year, leaving the mourning family homeless.
The unfavorable situation has forced many Indonesian women to marry their foreign fiances abroad, although this does not actually solve the problem should they decide to live in Indonesia.
The Ministry of Justice and Human Rights has submitted a bill to amend the 1958 Citizenship Law to the House of Representatives. However, the House has yet to list it for further deliberation.
:shock: Perhaps some of these things should paint more clearly where the Government stands on these issues. 1) Sympathehtic with JI...making it a political party isnt that a good idea. Dos'nt that endorse, in a subliminal way, the violent actions we see ? The talk is different the walk is the same. 2) It's all about money ..Get money from foreigners to marry a local..., women, are just another asset to make money from. It is acceptable to treat other races and nationalities different than locals both idealogically and economically. Sometimes it may be hard to see the forest through the trees but perhaps it is time to see more clearly. So even if you are tryting to help the people of Bali it's basically "back of the bus" for you when it comes down to basic rights. Am I missing something ???
Just thinking for mariathe...
If you have a marriage contract, you could make a "titleholder" contract with your husband, so you would be owner (user).
In the same contract inheritage could be arranged, so if your husband dies, his family would be obliged to continue the contract with you.
Just a thought, verify validity with a notary.
If the man would be the foreigner, this applies, I checked this.
If you have a marriage contract, you could make a "titleholder" contract with your husband, so you would be owner (user).
In the same contract inheritage could be arranged, so if your husband dies, his family would be obliged to continue the contract with you.
Just a thought, verify validity with a notary.
If the man would be the foreigner, this applies, I checked this.
WOW!!!!!! When I got married it was done twice. Once in church and once in a government office. If I had to pay $50,000 dollars now I might trade her in for a newer mod..... Ow Ow......... Darling I did not mean that and why do you have to look over my shoulder when I am sending emails Ow.......Ow
This is all just the way it is. Each of us understands this, and accepts it, even though we are disgusted and hope for changes in Indonesian law.
I’ve never heard of an expat, who is married to an Indonesian, and with kids, deported for any reason other than criminal charges, like drug use, consistent visa violations, or pedophilia.
The images, sometimes painted here, of Indonesia being some kind of nasty big brother who wants to expel all foreigners is simply ludicrous.
I’ve never been more comfortable anywhere else where I have lived. If the “Year of Living Dangerously” comes back, and it involves Bali, I will still stay here, and so will my whole family.
I’d love nothing more than to see these laws changed. But it the absence of the passage of these laws, I remain. So does my wife, and our boys and all of our family.
I’ve never heard of an expat, who is married to an Indonesian, and with kids, deported for any reason other than criminal charges, like drug use, consistent visa violations, or pedophilia.
The images, sometimes painted here, of Indonesia being some kind of nasty big brother who wants to expel all foreigners is simply ludicrous.
I’ve never been more comfortable anywhere else where I have lived. If the “Year of Living Dangerously” comes back, and it involves Bali, I will still stay here, and so will my whole family.
I’d love nothing more than to see these laws changed. But it the absence of the passage of these laws, I remain. So does my wife, and our boys and all of our family.
Hi Bert, hello Alice (and everyone who's reading this). I have a very similar story to Alice's, you may be interested...
About 6 years ago I traveled to Bali (from Canada as I am a Canadian) and fell in love with a local guy in Kuta. He was a scuba instructor and I went diving with him...so, things followed and I've decided to get married and live happily ever after on the island.
I made a terrible mistake though. I needed to return to Canada to get my stuff, papers, etc. together. In the meantime I gave him 7000 dollars to buy property with. We picked the place together and paid for it (just the property, no house yet). When I went back to Vancouver and tried to contact him again, he simply disappeared. I called his workplace, emailed him, tried everything to get in touch with him again, but he took off without saying goodbye.
Now, the only thing I know is his name and where he used to work, but I couldn't tell the street address of his home, nor do I have enough money to trace him down in Bali. Naturally, I didn't get any legal documents from the purchase and because of the local laws that time I couldn't have put it on my name anyways.
I know that I won't get my 'fiance' back, I kindly ask that if anyone living near Kuta could find him for me and ask him to at least contact me I'd be very grateful.
(His name is I-Nyoman Darmada)
Thanks for reading...
Vivien
About 6 years ago I traveled to Bali (from Canada as I am a Canadian) and fell in love with a local guy in Kuta. He was a scuba instructor and I went diving with him...so, things followed and I've decided to get married and live happily ever after on the island.
I made a terrible mistake though. I needed to return to Canada to get my stuff, papers, etc. together. In the meantime I gave him 7000 dollars to buy property with. We picked the place together and paid for it (just the property, no house yet). When I went back to Vancouver and tried to contact him again, he simply disappeared. I called his workplace, emailed him, tried everything to get in touch with him again, but he took off without saying goodbye.
Now, the only thing I know is his name and where he used to work, but I couldn't tell the street address of his home, nor do I have enough money to trace him down in Bali. Naturally, I didn't get any legal documents from the purchase and because of the local laws that time I couldn't have put it on my name anyways.
I know that I won't get my 'fiance' back, I kindly ask that if anyone living near Kuta could find him for me and ask him to at least contact me I'd be very grateful.
(His name is I-Nyoman Darmada)
Thanks for reading...
Vivien
In what place in the world, would you EVER give people money and simply leave? I am sorry for your loss, but becoming educated in what you are doing is a good thing. :roll:
Re: RE: Lost my House to a Balinese in Ubud
Umm, well, I was kinda hoping for someone to write me back with more of a practical advise ... No offense, but if you can't do better than to rub it in you might as well keep it shut. (Silence is golden in many situations. - Just helping you "becoming educated")truth sayer said: