Lost my House to a Balinese in Ubud

[Jimbo]

Kalevivka

It must have felt terrible to give your love and trust and then to be so dissapointed. I feel from your message that its not revenge you want but simply an explanation of why.

Take care and good luck.

 

[matsaleh]

Jimbo, I think your wife must be one very, lucky lady. You have a very compassionate nature and you always see the best in everyone. Those are very nice qualities to have.

 

[Jimbo]

Matsaleh

I only wish that were true. I am a real Manchester hardman thats me. Not a soft bone in the whole of my body. Wotcha trying to do.....get me a good reputation. Never happen I tell ya.

Nah. Its just as you get older and have been through the same things as other people you have the experience to deal with things more.

Pssst got a bottle of red wine for my Christmas Dinner. If I was at home I always have Champagne for breakfast, Chateuneuf-du-pap for dinner followed by Port and Brandy and then fall asleep with my silly Christmas chracker hat on during the Queens speech.

I wake up at 5pm for turkey sandwiches and a good claret for the stinky cheese. Its my one (honest) indulgence for the whole of the year.

I love Christmas for the true meaning and also for the joy it brings my family and me. I brought my presents with me to Saudi and in a couple of hours I will skype my house and we will all open our presents together.

See, I am in no way a big softie but real hard.....so there.

 

[matsaleh]

Re: RE: Lost my House to a Balinese in Ubud

See, I am in no way a big softie but real hard.....so there.

Whatever you say Jimbo. :roll: :wink:

Enjoy your Christmas dinner and your family get-together.

 

[Tim COLLINS]

To Alice in Bali

Thanks for sharing your painful experience with the forum Alice. What does one do when buying a house? I guess look into finding a well repected Balinese legal firm who specifically handles Balinese property. Then, research, research, research, check it out, check it out, then after you that, check it out more before any $ is given over.

Now I'm a novice at this but the question I would want answering is this: who can I turn to now? Who is the approapriate person to see regarding this matter. Who is accountable? Has there been any law broken? if so, what law -sounds like you need to contact [if you have not already] your contries consulate, the Indonesian consulate, a reputable and successful Balinese lawer.

I don't believe in letting it slide. If it's wrong its' wrong, all culture aside. I believe it's not good enough to hide behind so- called cultural difference at the expense of another person. You losing your house is a legal matter. And if it is deemed not a legal matter and there is no one to be held legally accountable, then I would let it go-put it down to experience, put it down to a mistake, put it down to -bad luck or anything else you can think of. But not before persuing the legal path first.

Morally it appears wrong and you can shake your finger at the [bad-man] but get it checked out first. As a therapist I feel you may feel better if you first give it your best shot at rectifying the legal problem -if not for the money, for the principle.

I can't imagine how much money, grief and suffering you have saved other people from who have read your comments, I know my ears pricked up when I read it - [ a potential house buyer in the future]

Best wishes

Again thanks for sharing with us your pain.

 

[jos]

Thanks for bringing your story up again. We all can learn from it before making mistakes.

We to are having plans to live in Bali and thanks to you, all kinds of info about this subject appeers on this forum for us to learn from.

Thanks.
Jos.

 

[Adele]

Yes thanks Alice I am about to go to Bali to buy land but will be very cautious about how I go about it. It's not only the Balinese who rip you off. My story happened last year, a women who I became aquainted with through a forum site said she was the founder of a bali Childrens Foundation and that I could join her on her next trip to Bali and deliver medical aide, food and clothing to the pooer villages. I met her and was convinced of her sincerity, to cut a long story short, she persuaded nieve me to deposit AUS $2,500.00 into her account so i could get the Indonesian interest rates etc. Well by the time I arrive in Bali all my money had dissapeared. I have since found out she is not evan a registered Foundation evan though she had flyers/brochures saying she was and had me sucked in! I feel bad as I am a single mother of 5 children and it was our money that my children all had voted on giving it to charity instead of having it used on them. I feel hurt, stupid and bad for my own children.

 

[Tim COLLINS]

Indeed this story may well have beaten to death- but for a newbie it was a story that caught my attention - a knee jerk reaction. In future i will check when a story was first posted.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Re: RE: Lost my House to a Balinese in Ubud

Indeed this story may well have beaten to death- but for a newbie it was a story that caught my attention - a knee jerk reaction. In future i will check when a story was first posted.

Don't worry Tim....

Sometimes its good to remind people to be careful.

 

[tracyinaz]

Funny. I was reading this thread and got to Jimbo's comment and thought to myself, "how wonderful! He's home for Christmas!" Then I saw that the post date was Christmas eve, 2005 and he was still in Saudi. Jimbo, I hope this post finds you well, and, if not home, at least happy. Happy Holiday to you and I pray for a good port to find its way to you! My husband is a huge fan of port! I guess that I am off the subject! I'm fascinated by this thread! I'm so sorry Alice, that you had to go through this! Betrayal by someone you trust may be one of the worst things someone must endure. I believe that you may have been a little naive in your actions, but, that doesn't excuse what your friend did to you. I still have plans to move to Bali and we did consider buying when we get there. I imagine that we will rent for a while. The prices are so reasonable, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't go that route. Good luck to you Alice. I hope to see you in Bali sometime.

 

[Jimbo]

Thank you. This year I am home and all the things I wanted last year are here including a very good Warres vintage port which may well need an extra gout tablet to recover from.

Midnight mass on Christmas Eve followed next day by a very traditional dinner......always with a twist from Maria who manages to put chillies in something (not yet in the figgy pudding) and my family all around me make up for a lot.

Indonesia and Bali in July next year and just received a financial rebate make all this a win win situation.

 

[MiSO]

It is 2009 right now, but this thread is still a good reminder: be alert, people are people, even (or especially) in mesmerizing places.

 

[leeloo]

Someone told me that incase of an indonesian nameholder and he or she dies, the ownership will pass on the his heirs and that the can undo the contracts you made with the original nameholder. Can anyone tell me if this is correct

Anyway, if your nominee's heir want to undo the contract you made with the original nameholder, can't you simply use another nominee instead? How could he screw you if you have a mortage/loan agreement on the land? Legally speaking, sure he inherits the land but he also inherits a huge debt correpsonding to the value of the land, so how can things turn sour?

True, but effectively enforceable only if you or your attorney holds the land certificate. Good luck with that one, as it is tough to negotiate, but I’ve heard of it being done. The problem I have seen most often with my expat friends, is that the land (certificate) holder goes off to a bank, and takes a nice big fat loan on it. When payments aren’t being made, can you guess who the bank comes calling on? Yup, you got, it, the lessee! The bank of course has no legal hold on the lessee, but then again, the lessee has no legal hold on the certificate either, but rather only the person in who’s name the certificate is issued. Neither liens or mortgages are recorded on land certificates, aka titles here. All you will see recorded on them are sales transactions, viz, change of ownership…so you can find yourself easily against the wall…the bank wanting to foreclose on the loan issued to the certificate holder, and you, wanting to enforce the lease to that land. :shock:

But I though Hipotek were written on the land title?
And even if it's not, if you have a Hak Pakai on it (in addition to the nominee agreement and the loan/mortgage agreement), your ass is covered, isn't?

 

[Markit]

Ok, relax for starters.
When you buy land in Bali you SHOULD make sure your name is included on the certificate and that you keep possession of that document - your notary will do that. This means that nothing can happen with the document without your being informed or required to agree.

If your name is not on the certificate and even if you keep possession of it then, theoretically, your nominee could still go to the police station and declare it as stolen or lost and receive a new one. With which he cold then proceed to sell the land! With your name on it this can not happen.

Should your nominee step in front of a bemo and go to the happy Babi Guling festival in the sky then his earthly goods pass automatically to his wife and then children (in Bali no will is needed and mostly they don't bother either) - nothing has changed, well for you - your nominee might not be quite so happy. Your name is still on the original certificate and the name of the new "owner" will now be added to it. There is still a large mortgage on the land payable by the new nominee (wife or child of the original nominee).

If you feel that this is fraught with danger and uncertainty just look at the "normal" difficulties that happen in our "rule of law" countries with regards to land sale and purchase - it keeps a whole shit-load of lawyers busy.

 

[leeloo]

OK thank you Markit. It confirms what I thought : if you do things properly, it's relatively safe...

 

[leeloo]

you SHOULD make sure your name is included on the certificate and that you keep possession of that document - your notary will do that. This means that nothing can happen with the document without your being informed or required to agree.

Hi Sorry to get back on this again , but I just wanna make sure of something.
If you get a mortgage on the land, this is enough to get your name on the certificate, right? I just want a confirmation on this. Because I plan to get a lease on it, not a Hak Pakai...

Another question regarding the lease : can i put a very low value for the lease in order to minimize the Tax levied on land lease (PPH)? Or is it not advisable?

Thank you for your answer and sorry to sound a bit nervous, I'm a complete rookie in buying property : it will be my first big purchase ever and I'll do it in a rather complicated environment, so I prefer to check and double check everything...

 

[Jimbo]

You are absolutely right to double check but I would strongly suggest you do it with a lawyer rather than an informal furum such as this. Even with the best of intentions there are no legal experts in here.

 

[Markit]

Umm I do agree with Jimbo about there not being an legal authorities here on the forum and that you should really, really take professional advise.

The only slight problem with that is that even getting the expert advise is can be fraught with problems here.
1) almost none of them speak English and I'm told the one guy in Kuta that does (Peter, Paul or Mary? forget the name) is also of questionable value and sincerity.
2) to be honest I reckon the best legal advise in the world would tell you "don't buy land in Indonesia" and they would be right - from a legalistic point of view, not from the point of view of someone that just wants to live here.
3) there is no security in the world other than death and taxes - they are for sure, the rest - who knows?

You write "If you get a mortgage on the land, this is enough to get your name on the certificate, right?"

You will not get a mortgage here in Bali. I'm sure you meant something else, but what, I don't know?

You write "can i put a very low value for the lease in order to minimize the Tax levied on land lease (PPH)?"

Putting a low value on the land will minimize your notary fees and land taxes but the land taxes are so minimal anyway who cares? You must put a realistic value on the nominee agreement otherwise, for instance lets say you put a total value on the nominee agreement of 500 million rupiah but in reality your house and land are worth 3 billion ($300,000) your nominee could (only saying he could, not would) borrow 500 million rupiah and pay off the debt and then be the proud owner of your land and house for the cool price of $50,000...

Don't worry about being nervous that's a perfectly healthy reaction to possibly loosing a shed load of money.

 

[sanna anjali]

Thank you for the posts of your experiences

:love_heart: Big Hugs for you, though I may never know you or meet you

Btw. I returned to Bali time and time again because one main reason...
Regardless of what Balinese have been through history, invasions and bombs...... the Balinese can find humor, color and laughter in thier world when it seems there is none. I find that closest to my heart, this is the same that gets me through life. Ever take a look at people around you and notice that very few people laugh for the sake of happiness? Or smile people for sake of being tryely poilite and making someone else smile? Or finding innocent humor the most rewarding of all emotions? Our western cultures have lost that in all of splendor. We lost the ablitity to take ourselfs lightly. We over complicate ourselfs with wordly possesions, close mindedness and self rightous thoughts.

This is Why I will always return to Bali, to be reminded the world does not revolve around the moment that I live in.

* I believe no one can truly make a business of being rich without ripping someone else off....but then again we need to re-think if this is for the good of the rest or for our own selfish good. Spent the last 4 days reading and researching on posts regarding buying a house and starting a business in Bali and came across your post, for 9 years I was married to a violent, selfish womaniser who is today a good friend of mine, remarried and a good father. Perhaps, Bali is a School of Knowledge of the Spirit Mystery* Thank you very much, well wishes sent your way of LOVE, ABUNDANCE and JOY is YOURS AlwaYS!* I received a clearer enlightenment from this thread~Thanks again

 

[AussieSammy]

Very interesting thread! Thanks guys