Abuse of freedom in Bali Restaurants!

[Guest]

As a long-time resident here I would love to hear any intelligent/reasonable reason as to just WHY so very many of you visitors from other countries (Australians seemingly leading) who would not dream of flouting the law or risk annoying other diners in your own country, show a total lack of consideration for others in lighting up your first cigarette immediately you are seated and continue to do so despite obvious signs of discomfort from others until you pay your bill and leave. Is it simply because you can? Could it be a childish raised finger to your home government and the protests of non-smokers there? There are no laws here regarding 'smoking' and 'non-smoking' areas in restaurants but some of the better ones are now starting to provide this and it is a tendency which should be encouraged and nurtured, your understanding would greatly help those of us who prefer to breath normal clean air to enjoy an evening at a restaurant. You could, after all, simply continue as you do at home - go outside when you feel the need for your drug and not force it, second-hand, on others :!: :evil: :shock: Perhaps you smokers should also realize that, in the event you do manage to quit, it is another TEN YEARS before your lungs are clean enough to be considered 'safe' from the dreaded "Big C" :!: Many of us did not make it that long and are now paying.

 

[bolli]

Owwwwwwwwww :roll:
Sorry but yes, we do get a bit miffed that we can still buy cigarettes but are banned from smoking them anywhere, so when we come to Bali and 95% seem to be puffing away , we just embrace it.
We are not flouting any laws and I am trying to quit , I must admit.
I do go outside to puff at a restaurant unless the joint is mostly empty.
How delightful of you to make your first post so friendly. :evil: :evil:

 

[Tommy]

I always have to leave whenever someone lights up a cigarett coz of my respiratory problems... and as you might understand this means ALOT of walking out on things for me. For an example i can only visit some internet-cafés when there are no smokers inside or have been for a few hours so the air is clean. When they start "puffin" i reluctantly have to leave within a few minutes.

An angry first post Colin.. welcome!

 

[Davo]

Hello Colinf, To tell you the truth ive never given it much thought.

Most restaurants i go to are outside so never even thought about it.

Rest assured next time im in a restaurant in bali i will do poll of the surounding people so not to offend.

 

[Guest]

Bolli...I had not intended that my post should be unfriendly - turned out a bit that way though, didn't it? Sorry. However, it does make me rather upset, on the occasions that we go out for a meal, to have the next table fill up with lit up smokers within seconds of our meal arriving. Sometimes it's possible to move to another table, but often the only recourse is to take the meal as 'bunkus' - the doggy-bag - and leave. (In which case it invariably does end up as a welcome snack for the dog!)
Tommy...thank you for the welcome and again, apologies for the anger. You would appear to suffer similar problems to me in close proximity to second-hand cigarette smoke - I choke up and usually can hardly speak. I have to admit to being an ex - or "reformed" - smoker(a very long time back) and like all such, am possibly worse than those who've never smoked, but can somebody please give me one good reason why I cannot enjoy a good restaurant/pub free from toxic assault? And why should I be rudely glared at simply because I get up and move to a table away from their smoke? All we ask is an area barred to smokers and with an effective extractor fan or two. Is that too much to ask, just too much of an investment for the proprietor? After all, should we not, as guests in this country, be showing our Indonesian/Balinese friends by our own example how our culture respects the rights and expectations of all? Sadly many tourists and expats seem to leave those principles in the customs hall on arrival. Think on it.

 

[Tommy]

I reckon it's a tricky, but necessary, balance for business-owners in Bali to consider enforcing non-smoking or at least.. designated areas for smokers & non-smokers. The process for a full-scale ban on smoking in public places as resturants, bars, internet cafés are currently in the hands of the owners and for them to decide and set out the rules. I would surely welcome a nation-wide ban on smoking in public places but i'm not sure if this is plausible in Indonesia as the tobacco-industry is very strong and implementation might be difficult.. as grass-root problem. We got a nation-wide ban on smoking in public places (as restaurants, bars etc) just last year here in Sweden and it seem to be working out quite fine.. but Sweden can't be compared to Indonesia as there are way to many factors that differ. One thing for sure, if i'd consider having a "public" busines in Bali there would surely be either strict non-smoking or designated areas in the masterplan.

 

[Git]

Welcome Colin
I agree totally with you
the disrespect of those that smoke is baffling to me,Just reading this post gave me a cigg.headace !
In calif. there is a mandetory bad of no smoking everywhere,even on the beaches. Its been wonderfull,the reason for this bill passing is due to the employees in bars getting respiratory ailments due to secondarysmoke inhalation.
I have never smoked,never will,and will never marry any one that smokes. When you smoke you are invading someones private airspace,the stink lingers in your hair and clothing.
When i did volunteer work in bali,it was a constant problem as the owner of the clinic smoked like a chimmney,her office stunk of fungus ciggs.(can you imagine smoking in a health clinic?) The drivers i hired all smoked,and me complaining helped none. The daily headaces i suffered from were all due to cigg. smoke. Yes your message was a bit extreme but i know where you are comming from.
In europe it was the same,smoking was even worse there,on trains,bus,taxi,bars,dinners,outside inside............yuk!
In bali you might turn away your only customer if you tell them not to smoke,but the sensible thing would be to have a non-smoking section,and smoking section.
Ok enough of my ranting.............sorry folks,sore subject here.
Gina Tyler

 

[Roy]

I have just a few comments regarding this interesting string.

One is that many, if not the majority of restaurants in Bali are to one degree or another, open air, or at least partially open air. Few restaurants are completely enclosed excepting those in Denpasar, or those within large resorts. Non smokers may consider to never, if possible, be seated in the center of restaurants, but closer to the edges, thus closer to the open air.

Collin wrote,

After all, should we not, as guests in this country, be showing our Indonesian/Balinese friends by our own example how our culture respects the rights and expectations of all? Sadly many tourists and expats seem to leave those principles in the customs hall on arrival. Think on it.

OK, I’ve thought on that. “Should we not, as guests in this country, be showing our Indonesian/Balinese friends by our own example how our culture respects the rights and expectations of all?”

I take exception to that on two levels...one, it’s frequently not always the case that our own cultures in fact support equal rights, and secondly, it seems to smack at an inference that the Indonesians and Balinese do not support equal rights...and that we colonials need to show them by example “how it is done.”

No one in their right mind would argue the higher principles inherent within those words, but as it relates to smoking in restaurants, the onus of making the dining experience enjoyable for all diners, smokers and non smokers alike, really falls on the restaurant management, and not the patrons. If you are an expat, and you have a favorite restaurant that you dine at regularly, then encourage the owner/manager to establish a non smoking area if one does not already exist.

For smokers, tobacco use, whether a pipe, a cigar or cigarettes is an essential part of the enjoyment of their dinner. Many diners cannot imagine an after dinner cognac with coffee without their tobacco of choice, and in this case, frequently a cigar.

Tobacco awareness, specifically its detrimental health effects, is slowly increasing in Indonesia. Obviously large American tobacco companies like Phillip Morris are banking that it will take decades for Indonesians to get to the level of “quitting the habit” as present in the US and Europe. Otherwise they wouldn’t have recently purchased a 49% share in Sampoerna. One could argue the morality of an American tobacco conglomerate buying into the tobacco company of an emerging nation all day long. Or is this an example how American culture should be demonstrated to Indonesians? :shock:

 

[Tommy]

In europe it was the same,smoking was even worse there,on trains,bus,taxi,bars,dinners,outside inside............yuk!

Just defending "our turf" abit here.. :lol: Might i ask what country in Europe you visited?

 

[Git]

Dear Tommy
I'm half dutch,i lived in the netherlands for 10yrs,travels all over europe.The last horrid 'smoking adventure trip' i remember is holland to france via train in the middle of winter. No non smoking seats were avail. thus i was in a smoking compartment,talk about deprived air...oh my goodness...i was dying.....it was snowing outside but i choose to stand inbetween the two train carts outside for the duration of the trip. Freezing my bones off! but at least i could breath clean air.
I dont even invite smokers over to my house anymore (the past 3 decades) not worth it.
"your body is your temple"............
Respect and honnor your physical,mental and emotional self by not smoking.
Gina Tyler

 

[Git]

Dear roy
I do understand your point,does not mean i agree with it.
There is a cigar store close to my house in california,each time i go for a morning walk past this store,it smells so bad even with the doors and windows closed. How that is possible i dont know?
Perhaps the nerve endings in the nose are dulled with the exposure of cigg./cigar smoking. My nose i verry sensitive,i can smell a cigg. a mile away.even through a wall.

cognac i dont drink (no alcohol) but the two seem to go hand in hand.......drinking and smoking.
When i was in bali i had many request for homeopathic remedies to stop smoking,there is a remedy called 'tabacum',made from tobacco leaf diluted and succusses via kinetic energy. It seemed to suppress the urges, the herbal plant 'lobellia' was used by the american indians to suppress smoking urges.
Gina Tyler

 

[Pat]

Dear Gina

I am sure you will be pleased to know that smoking is forbiden in all trains in France since 11/12/2005.
No more smoking seats or smoking in restaurant wagon.

Sampai jumpa

Pat

 

[Guest]

Roy, true our western cultures do not always support equal rights, although in law, most certainly do. And this is also most certainly not the case in Bali or the rest of Indonesia! Ask any Balinese woman what she can inherit from her father or husband should she outlive them. Ask how many of them choose thier own husbands or if it was a choice made by the family - the husband of choice being a first cousin being no bar to the marriage! (which by the way, is illegal under Indonesian law). How many are working as underpaid domestics or 'nannies', abused and insulted by the whole family on a daily basis. I need not continue. However, I took great pains to couch my final comment in terms that I thought no-one would see as demeaning or belittling. But no, Roy managed to see it as a "colonial" attitude, "showing them how it's done". Or at least, presenting that as a possible platform for my words. Deliberate misrepresentation, some would call that.
"The onus falls on the restaurant manager, not the patrons". Wrong again Roy. As the entire concept of a separate area for non-smokers is so widely unknown here, the onus moves to the non-smokers to demand it. Most of the better places are in any case owned/operated by expats themselves who should be well aquainted with the idea and I cannot for the life of me see how it would have a negative effect on their takings. Once established it would quickly gain popularity, I'm sure. In the airline business an extremely common negative comment from homeward-bound foreign visitors is the problem of smoking in buses/shops/restaurants etc. One would think that the ability to offer a smoke free area in it's promotions would only enhance a business' attraction to the customers, surely.
As for the 'open' restaurants position; it works OK I guess in the main tourism season - the "dry" season - but the "wet" lasts normally around 6 months and a tropical rainstorm with its attendant winds does nothing for your soup or steak! (Puts out any glowing cigarettes though!). I also always feel there's something rather 'temporary' about them, rightly or wrongly, and then there's also the biting insect problem, again more in the wet than dry season. They have a simple answer for that, though. A coil under the table........smoking!

Finally, I agree 100% with your last paragraph, Roy, perhaps Phillip Moriss should be taken to task by their own home government or smoke-free lobby?!

So, tourists to Bali, please think of others before you light up, even though you can. And if you are a non-smoker, PLEASE, always ask for a non-smoking area even though they usually won't have one. The knowledge that visitors want it will gradually sink in and, who knows, one day it may become a normal fixture!

 

[Roy]

Colin, I think we agree more than disagree...except on the point of human rights as they specifically relate to the Balinese anyway.

You write,

Ask any Balinese woman what she can inherit from her father or husband should she outlive them.

Do my Balinese wife and mother in law and sisters in law count?

I don’t know where you live in Indonesia, as you’ve only referred to as “here” in Indonesia. But in Bali, adat law generally supersedes both regency, as well as provincial law. I can assure you that Balinese women do not loose their houses, land or other inheritance simply because their husband pre-deceases them. I don’t know where you got that idea, but I’ve never head of such a thing, nor my Balinese wife, or her Balinese family, and it certainly has never happened in our village, ever. Maybe this sort of feudal BS still goes on in very remote areas of Bali, but it sure doesn’t go on in Ubud!

You also ask,

Ask how many of them choose their own husbands or if it was a choice made by the family.

Are you kidding? Are we talking Bali 1860 or Bali 2006? My wife Eri just read your post and she just laughed and asked, “what is he talking about?” I’m sorry, but I have to ask the same question!

As for the rest of your post, all I can say is that yes, I smoke. I wish I could quit...tired many times but always seem to come back to it. At restaurants I try to be as courteous as possible...I have my own table at Café Lotus, and Hans is sensitive to not sit adamant non smokers near me. At Nuri’s Warung, I always sit out in the front, near the barbeque which puts out a whole lot more smoke than I do.

Anyway, this post has been fun, and frankly somewhat revealing. I don’t want to put you off Colin, and I look forward to more of your posts in the future.

 

[Guest]

You got it, Roy....we agree to disagree - on some points.

Good to get to know you........Colin.

 

[Jimbo]

As a 3 pack a day man for over 35 years I gave it up 7 years ago. Never a day goes by without the desire for a fag but would I start again.......never.

If the most beautiful woman in the world offered me her body and she was a smoker I would turn her down....serious. The smell on her clothes and hair would cause my desire to wilt

But I do remember those days when a smoke after a meal was just great. Being alive now though is because I gave up.

 

[Roy]

Never a day goes by without the desire for a fag

Hmmm, as an ex New Yorker, I might call that a "true confession! :lol: :lol: :lol: ...and likely more dangerous to one's health too! :shock:

Seriously, I hope no one is taking my posts as any sort of promotion of smoking. I’m not promoting it, but at the same time, smokers have rights too. I still maintain it is up to the management of the Bali restaurants to serve and please their patrons. If they hear enough complaints about smoking, I have little doubts they would be willing to accommodate both smokers and non smokers with sectioned areas of the restaurant designated for both.

When Gina wrote earlier, "your body is your temple" I nearly fell of my chair laughing. Not laughing at Gina, but laughing at the image of any Bali temple ceremony...the Balinese at temple...and smoking even in the inner sanctum of the prayer area!

Anyway, Jimbo...that most beautiful woman in the world who is offering you her body, but you turn her down because she smokes....you can send her my way.

 

[Tommy]

Colin,
I gotta agree with Roy there.. you seems to have an obsolete view on certains things (inheritage / marriage), but i understand misconceptions are easily made too. Would you enlighten us and tells us where in Indonesia you work/live/visit/stay?

Roy,
If you'd ever be intrested in trying to quit smoking i could bring you Nicorette Microtabs (same ones i got Bert 2 years ago). It'll give you the nicotine dosis necessary to minimize the urge to smoke. They're available in different doses and different forms .. as Tabs, Chewing-gum, Inhaler, Nasal-spray and Plaster. 3 months of use should be enough to cut the habit, but for some it is much faster.

Here's a link to the official site (in swedish :? ):
http://www.nicorette.se/templates/Product.aspx?id=63

 

[Roy]

Thanks Tommy. I've tried all the methods, including hypnosis...none have worked for a very long time.

Being with Bert just last week, I don't think those microtabs worked for him either! :shock:

But, it's great that you look out for your friends! Many thanks amigo! We hope you come home soon!

 

[Guest]

Tommy, Roy....perhaps you're right, but I have to say that twice, over the years, we've had parents and other family show up at the gate demanding access to the pembantu, then after an hour's discussion in her room emerge and calmly inform us that she will now be leaving with them as she is to be married. The first left in tears, the second protested loudly and would have been physically abused had my wife, who is also Indonesian though not Balinese, not stepped in and calmed things down. The first was from Gianyar and the second from Karangassem - obviously somewhat different to your Ubud people Roy. Anyway, since then we've made it a rule never to employ young girls, it is simply not worth the stress of teaching them, getting to know and trust them and they, as they do, becoming part of the family...only to have crap like that happen.
I'm glad to be told, however, that this is not a normal Bali-wide practice, although I honestly did think it was and have had friends tell us of similar experiences. :shock:

In answer to your question Tommy, I live in Sanur and work(semi-retired, which is a nice arrangement)at the airport for a major foreign airline. Been here nearly 14 years and had the same job right through, although until recently full-time. Married, as I said, to an Indonesian lady and our 13th wedding anniversary is in May. I actually registered on the forum this afternoon, so unless Roy uses his power of veto( !!)all this will shortly be common knowledge anyway. :roll:

Peace and fair winds all......Colin.