Abuse of freedom in Bali Restaurants!

G

Guest

Guest
I am not saying that I don't care about people who don't like the smokers but have you ever stopped to consider that you are suggesting local people should get up and leave their table to have a cigarette so YOU, an expat, can be more comfortable? The majority Indonesians/Balinese people smoke. Also why is it you complain about smokers in an open air restaurant like it's an outrage when you enjoy a nice came fire or barbeque with your kids? Don't you think that is odd?

Anyway, all I am trying to say is that smokers are people too and they should be able to enjoy dinner as much as none smokers. It is not the smoking customers that you should complain about but the restaurant owner how can easily create a smoking and none smoking section.
 

Sergio

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Dec 6, 2004
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^ Sorry about the double posts everyone, I did not realise I submited the post three times as when I saw "guest" as the username I thought mine didn't take and not even seeing it was my post I tried to submit the post again... DUH!

Anyway, that was me...


<<<<I deleted your extra posts, Sergio - Mats>>>>
 

dahlia

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Oct 4, 2005
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Are you kidding? Are we talking Bali 1860 or Bali 2006? My wife Eri just read your post and she just laughed and asked, “what is he talking about?” I’m sorry, but I have to ask the same question!

Roy,

My helper Nyoman was forced to marry a man of her father's choice. She cried but couldn't say no. It was in 1997. In 1999, one of my cousin's sawah worker in Canggu was forced to marry and she was only 14.

To my knowledge those things still happen, not only in Bali, but in other places around Indonesia as well, especially in small vilages.


I will agree for the restaurant to have a non smoking section for the non smoker. When I was still living in Indonesia and took bemo everyday to work, most of the non smoker passenger will tell the smoker to stop smoking in the bemo. I think even most Indonesian will like to have dinner or take the bemo without smokes on the air. I am glad that in the domestic airplane now, they do not allow passenger to smoke. It's a big step, as we also like to breath the clean air.


Regards
 

Tommy

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May 11, 2005
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To my knowledge those things still happen, not only in Bali, but in other places around Indonesia as well, especially in small vilages.

So what?

...A quite short reply but it is my "first thought". How people get married, with who, under what circumstances, traditions, parental involvement etc etc can drive people nuts but can also lead to succesful families. To me the ideal way is of course for people to decide entirely for themselves whom they wish to marry or not marry... but everyone has their own ideals and some put traditions above them.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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Colin writes:

so unless Roy uses his power of veto( !!)all this will shortly be common knowledge anyway.

Just to set things straight, I have NO power of veto, or any other “power” on this forum...nor have I ever had such “power.” In fact, I’ve been banned from this forum once for lacking restraint, and decorum in some of my posts. That was my fault, and I have no problem saying that it was my fault.

It is highly unlikely that any new poster will cause me to regress to my New York ways, as I’ve made a solemn promise to Bert by face that I won’t. So...anyone can “pick on me” all they want. I’m intelligent enough to make my points clear without animosity. And, I must say that Jimbo has been a very good, and patient friend along this path of my enlightenment! Matur Sukusma Ba Pak Jimbo!

This forum exists only because of the commitment of Om Bert. That’s not patronizing Bert, rather, that is just fact.

Mats has been recently granted the role of forum moderator, and those of us who have been around here a while all agreed...she is the perfect choice.

So, my post herein is just to set the record straight.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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Phew...this kind of string hardly ever shows up on the "travel" section of this forum. I for one, hardly ever check this section of Bert's forum, lest I get caught up in arguments over the pros and cons of raspberry cordials as a remedy for Bali belly, or almost as bad, color coded bags! :p :p :p Just kidding!

Regarding the marriage issue, all I can speak of is my own experience. In my village, which is Bunutan-Kedewatan, north of Ubud, I was the first "bule" or foreigner to ever court, and eventually marry a Balinese woman from that village. And glory be, she was not "suda hamil" (not pregnant) when I married her!

My wife's family was wonderful, right from the start. They were most kind, most accepting, and mostly just wanted to know simple answers to simple questions like, "where do you plan to live?" "Do you want children?" Simple questions that went straight to the heart of their idea of continuing ancestral traditions despite my race.

My father and mother in law trusted their daughter to make her own decision, and to this day, my bond with them is only second to my bond with my wife. I love Eri’s mom and dad and all their family. They all accepted me, including the grandfather, with whom I have a very special relationship.

I know a whole lot of Balinese in one way or another...be it through family, friends, or business contacts. I know no Balinese that were ever forced into a marriage...and I highly doubt I ever will. It just doesn't happen in Ubud, as for most families, there is a trust among their children that they will make the best choices for themselves. That's the Bali I know!

The Balinese in my village are way beyond the idea of pre-arranged marriages, that is for certain. In my village, Balinese women are treated with the same respect and honor as any Balinese man. My wife Eri is often consulted by our village head for her ideas on this or that. I am so proud of her when this happens, making coffee, offering some sweets, and then sitting down to business. As with many Balinese women, she is more than capable of "holding her own" yet careful to not put the man in an embarrassing situation. She is so good at this, I just sit back in awe and watch her at work.

As the head of our village leaves our house, he is convinced that the ideas, thoughts, or whatever are his own. My wife Eri may cast me a quick glance that tells all, and I just smile, knowing that my wife has done her duty, fulfilled her obligations to the banjar and the Gods in a way I can never experience for myself. At those moments, I am flushed with extreme pride and admiration of Eri, a woman who is indeed "wanita di Bali."

As I see things, I see the “wanita di Bali” as the real force behind what goes on here, and that is certainly true in my humble little village. At the few banjar meetings I attend, I have to laugh, (very quietly), as I already know from my wife what so and so is going to say. The “wanita di banjar” have already discussed it! Though absent in body, and absent in the votes, their presence seems to overpower the democratic process which seems (but does not), exclude women from active participation.

Well, that’s the way life is in my village anyway. No “pre-arranged” marriages, and the Gods forbid anyone who has plans to take away the land, kijang, television, or whatever assets a widow has! In my village, there would be a “holy hell” to pay for such an atrocity!
 

dahlia

Member
Oct 4, 2005
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Tommy,


Nothing,
just to let everyone knows that we live in Bali in 2006 and forced marriage is still exist either in Bali or other part of Indonesia.

Roy,
your lucky that your family is modern yet holding the tradition. Your wife Eri seems very well educated and hold her traditions in the way that shows she is an ideal Balinese woman. Lucky you.
Howevere, forced marriage is exist, maybe you haven't met any yet.

The majority Indonesians/Balinese people smoke

Do you have the statistik on that?

Thank you
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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Ubud, Bali
Roy,
your lucky that your family is modern yet holding the tradition. Your wife Eri seems very well educated and hold her traditions in the way that shows she is an ideal Balinese woman. Lucky you. Howevere, forced marriage is exist, maybe you haven't met any yet.

Dahlia, it's not just my family who is spared from this, but virtually all Balinese that I have ever known in what is going on to eight years of full time life on Bali.

You’re not Balinese Dahlia, as you are from Kupang. I’m sorry to say, but you have NO basis to discuss forced marriages in Bali, as you are NOT Balinese!

My wife, Eri doesn't seem to be well educated...she IS well educated and this feudal idea of pre-arranged marriages is totally not allowed in the adat of our banjar....or any other banjars in Bali that we are aware of for sure!

If you are of the mind that "forced marriages" are still rampant in Bali, then please, tell us where this is going on in Bali, and a couple or two that we can talk to and document!

Forced marriages may still be a sad reality in your "neck of the woods" but they aren't in mine. My "neck of the woods" is Bali!
 
G

Guest

Guest
You’re not Balinese Dahlia, as you are from Kupang. I’m sorry to say, but you have NO basis to discuss forced marriages in Bali, as you are NOT Balinese!

Wow! Are you a master of Balinese Culture just after living in Bali less than a decade? Do you have the basis to discuss it Roy? Is it because you are Balinese or have a Balinese wife? Or because you live in Bali? If you say I have NO basis to discuss forced marriage in Bali, NEITHER DO YOU, since you are NOT Balinese nor Indonesian.
I am NOT a Balinese, but I am INDONESIAN and part of the culture.
As I said earlier, this forced marriage exist NOT only in Bali (if you can read well), but also other part of Indonesia. So, don't be too excited.
And I can say this is exist in Bali bacause Nyoman my helper was one of them.
If you don't like it, then too bad.

I am sorry to say all above guys, but this American man thinks he knows everything about Bali because he has a Balinese wife and live in Ubud.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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I am sorry to say all above guys, but this American man thinks he knows everything about Bali because he has a Balinese wife and live in Ubud.

I’m sorry you feel that way Dahlia, but yes, I surely know a lot more about Balinese culture than you. I live and breathe it every day, and frankly, you don’t.

Does my wife, and her family have something to do with that? You bet they do! Most of what I know about Bali has come from seven plus years of full time living in Bali, in an obscure village, with my family and the Balinese that make up my banjar, a banjar of which I am now a permanent member.

Am I what you call “a master of Balinese Culture?” No, but I surely know what the hell is going on around me, within my village, and within Ubud. And I have NO doubt that although you are Indonesian, you couldn’t hold a candle next to me in regards to knowledge of the Balinese culture. If that makes you angry, then I am sorry, but I will not run from the truth.

The picture “you painted” is entirely inaccurate, as is the picture Colin painted. Please understand that I will not, never have, or ever will, just stand by and accept BS posts, conclusions, or rash statements concerning the Balinese, especially when such statements impact, or reflect on my family in such an inaccurate, or negative manner.

I'm not looking for a fight, or any problems, but rest assured, my knowledge of Balinese culture is greater than many Balinese. But hey, just call my father in law and ask him, or our priest, Jero Manku. I don't care what you believe, as I have nothing to prove to you, or anyone else.

Hey! Ask Ni Luh or Kadek. Why do they call me Om Roy? They call me Om Roy out of their respect for my knowledge and adoption of the Balinese culture. Both my sisters in law call me Om Roy. Does that make my knees wobble a litttle bit? You bet it does. I have a reputation to live up to, both within my banjar, and the greater community of Ubud.
 

Tommy

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May 11, 2005
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I am NOT a Balinese, but I am INDONESIAN and part of the culture.

I'm not sure i understand what this means dahlia. How would you say you're a part of the Balinese culture just because you're born Indonesian?

Wow! Are you a master of Balinese Culture just after living in Bali less than a decade? Do you have the basis to discuss it Roy? Is it because you are Balinese or have a Balinese wife? Or because you live in Bali? If you say I have NO basis to discuss forced marriage in Bali, NEITHER DO YOU, since you are NOT Balinese nor Indonesian.

Why shouldn't Om Roy have become an expert on Balinese culture? You said it yourself.. almost a decade.. balinese wife and big family, being hindu, having vast knowledge of balinese & indonesian history etc etc. That should most certainly make a person qualify as a baliense expert? .. or more simply put.. as a balinese. :idea:
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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Roy,

My helper Nyoman was forced to marry a man of her father's choice. She cried but couldn't say no. It was in 1997. In 1999, one of my cousin's sawah worker in Canggu was forced to marry and she was only 14.

Could be, can be I guess, and I'm certainly not going to call you a liar. In my village, the only way a 14 year old girl is going to "tie the knot" is if she is "sudah hamil." And, at the age of 14, sure, it can happen Balinese to Balinese. Are you about to say this never happens in Java, Sumatra, or Sulawesi? I sure hope not!

A woman "forced" to marry a particular man, "tidak sudah hamil"? NO WAY! It would NEVER happen in my village.

OK, it happened for your friiend Nyoman...forced, as you say, into a marriage she did not want. All I can comment on is my own life experiences, which in Bali is pretty extensive....BUT I will admit, not entirely conclusive. I've never heard if a "forced marriage" and niether has my Balinese wife. That's not to say it never happens, but it surely is a rare event...one which Colin capitalized on, most erroneously.

There are NO couples in Kedewatan-Bunutan that were EVER forced into marriage. In fact, the rare times I have witnessed intimate exchnages between Balinese men, and their wives, I was both embarressed, muttering "ma'af, "ma'af" and at the same time, exillerated to have seen a precious moment, never intended for me.

Many Balinese men make good husbands, and many Balinese ladies make good wives and potential mothers.

Does anyone want to change that fact because it goes against the grain of western thinking? Can western thinking ever understand, and yet alone, assimilate Balinese thinking? I think not with either regard.
 

Git

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Jul 16, 2005
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dutch /indonesian in the usa for now
Hello to all
Wow this subject went from 'smoking in public places' to marriage..................

My comment; my grandmother Siti had this type of arrainged marriage,was forced into it at age 12 (no she was not pregnant). She ran away into the jungles of JAVA instead.
Her teeth were filed and 24 c. Gold poured on them.

Gina Tyler
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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No offense Gina, but youi are talking about Java...and not Bali.

While there used to be "forced" or pre-arranged marriages in Bali, I don't want either Colin, or Dahlia thinking that this is still common on Bali.

It may still happen, from time to time in the most remote of villages, but hey! Give us (the Balinese) a break! :D :D :D
 

dahlia

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Oct 4, 2005
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While there used to be "forced" or pre-arranged marriages in Bali, I don't want either Colin, or Dahlia thinking that this is still common on Bali.

Did I say that those marriage is common in Bali in my earlier posts? Then, you get me wrong. As I said earlier, those kind of marriages still exist ( did I say common??) either in Bali or other part of Indonesia. Do you know other parts of Indonesia are the 13,000 islands that belong to it?
Why do you get upset and tell me that I have no rights to talk about it because I am from Kupang and not from Bali.
This pre-arrange marriage is still there Roy, in Bali, Java, Sumatra, Sulawesi. If you do not agree, it's fine, but you don't have to get mad and tell me not to discuss about it because I'm from Kupang. That is a stupid remark from your side (maybe rather racist or 'suku'ist), since I never say it is happen only in Bali.
It may still happen, from time to time in the most remote of villages
Glad you acknowledge it because that what I meant all along.


Tommy
I am not Balinese, but I am Indonesian and I am part of the Indonesian culture ( I did not mean I am part of the Balinese culture). I am proud of it and will not let any bule or "Om Roy" tell me not to talk about it.
Eventhough Roy has more knowledge about Balinese culture than I do (which is good for him), does he has the authority to tell me not to discuss about forced marriage in Bali or in other part of Indonesia???????
He is Balinese by learning and not by birth ( no doubt about it), but heck he does not have to mention about me being from Kupang and tell me not to talk because I am not a Balinese.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Ladies and Gents....this discussion has moved way too far off of it's original topic and is also now becoming 'bitchy' and counterproductive. Excuse me folks, but enough is enough - you meet this stuff in everyday life and don't need to join a forum for more of the same! :roll:
I'm now engaging reverse and backing away from it. The subject, that is. Can we all maybe call a truce before the name calling and mud-slinging starts? :oops:
 

dahlia

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Oct 4, 2005
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Sorry Colin,

I do not mean to be rude or things like that. I agree that we should discuss more informative rather than discriminative discussions.
I apologize to the forum if I have gone too far.

Regards,
Dahlia
from Kupang, but trully Indonesian 8)
 

bolli

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Nov 28, 2005
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Re: RE: Abuse of freedom in Bali Restaurants!

gina tyler said:
Hello to all
Wow this subject went from 'smoking in public places' to marriage..................

mmmmm :?
I would like to pick up on a post made so far back, we did forget the origin of the thread.
Roy said, "smokers have rights too"
this is correct, until smoking is illegal, impossible to buy, and stopped totally for health reasons, (and yes, we all know how bad it is ) then the persistant canning of , and making smokers feel like pariahs, quite frankly pisses me off. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: to the point where I may just light up to show solidarity for my fellow lepers.
:lol: :lol:
 

Jimbo

Active Member
Jan 11, 2005
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Dahlia

Neither you nor anyone else has gone too far its just an honest disagreement of opinion thats all. I am sure you absolutely right in what you say. My own experience encompasses "dari sabang ke merauke" and I have neither heard or seen many forced marraiges. What I have seen is many that have been arranged, most are accepted willingly especially amongs those that follow Islam.

I am sure that some of these are forced but in the main my personal experience of the wider aspects of Indonesia show most are not. As for Bali I cannot say. What I can say is that most Indonesian women are just as strong as the men and tend to run the familiy despite the macho attitude of some men. This means that they only want their daighters happiness and if their own experience caused them pain and sadness they would not let their children go through more of the same.

My web page when it was up and running had this description of my wife

" No compliant eastern women this. Although she looks like butter would not melt in her mouth she controls the whole family...though the love we have for her"

Oh and back on subject. She does not smoke :)