Well, this is all mind blowing for me...and I truly mean that. The only Balinese woman I have ever really known is my wife. Before meeting her (another string), I never dated or even thought of dating a Balinese woman. Until my wife and I were married, I never became close friends with Balinese women either.
While I’m very close to my two sisters in law, Made and Nyoman, discussions like these for me with them are almost impossible, but in our own way, we are able to convey the essentials.
For me, it’s absolutely GREAT to be able to share some frank conversation with Ni Luh and Kadek (and hopefully not forgetting someone else). In a very serious way, I feel we are kindred spirits. They, as Balinese are living away from Bali, and me, a foreigner living in Bali. As Ni Luh and Kadek adapt to the culture where they currently live, I do the same thing, here in Bali. Our mutuality is that we each call Bali home. Kadek, you are too kind and I am not deserving of these words,
I am deeply moved by those words, and I cannot proclaim, matur sukusma enough times. I know I will always be what I am, essentially a tamu in Bali, and surely bule. I have no problem accepting that fact, and for me to become Balinese is just not what the Gods had in mind, this time around anyway.. All I want is for my sons to be embraced by Bali, and her people, as that is what they are, currently anak di Bali, and one day, just simply Balinese. In our banjar, that has already happened.
When it’s time for me to pass this world, I will be cremated in adat fashion. After I am purified at the sea, ready to be reincarnated, who knows...maybe when I come back, I’ll be an orang di Bali asli!
In the meantime, (as I’m not that ready to become an orang di Bali asli) I think it’s great that Kadek and Ni Luh offer so much, as they do, to this forum. In spite of all my efforts, both with my own wife, and my cousin Wayan Dedik, they both seem to find the time to be here impossible. I think both Ni Luh and Kadek understand that very well. Balinese on Bali are very, very busy people and finding the time to even check their e-mail is almost impossible.
Ni Luh, the “pinning over Thorsten” thing was just a continuation of the fun you all were having. That’s it.
I want to leave this post with an item I recently found while cleaning out my files. I wrote this in 1998 and I think I posted it on the Bali Travel Forum. Now re-reading it, my mind hasn’t been changed a bit:
FEMME DE BALI
For me, the “femme de Bali” are among the most beautiful and unique women in the world. The women of Bali are strong, physically and emotionally. This great strength is balanced with a tenderness and grace I’ve not experienced anywhere else on earth. Their grace is evident to all who come to Bali and simply watch them as they conduct their daily activities. Their tenderness, however, can only be appreciated through intimate relationships.
In the early days of Bali’s rise in fame as a tourist destination, specifically the 1920’s and 30’s, it was the appeal of Balinese women that constituted the major draw. Expatriate artists, Willem Hofker for example, sought to ennoble these unique women on paper and canvas. Other artists of note and fame as Le Mayeur de Merpres, attempted the same. Indigenous Balinese art of that time, and unto today, presents the Balinese woman in the most admirable light, with complete respect, reverence and a deserved noble status.
Tourists are often appalled, as I was myself when first seeing trucks filled with large and heavy rocks being off loaded by Balinese women as the male driver sat in comfort smoking his cigarette. To this very day, the likelihood of a Balinese woman being married before she is pregnant by her suitor is slim. It would never occur, or be accepted by the Balinese male that he might be “shooting blanks.”
But, do not feel sorry for the Balinese women. Balinese society, albeit seemingly male dominated, is also very matriarchal. Young Balinese boys are taught from birth to respect and love their mothers, and in their upbringing within traditional Balinese compounds they also learn to love, respect, and admire their sisters, aunties, grandmothers, and virtually every female member of their Banjar.
In short, Balinese men are allowed and expected to be men by Balinese women, and women are allowed, and expected to be women by Balinese men, in spite of their biological and social disparity. It all seems to work here better than anywhere else in the world. There is no such thing as “women’s liberation” here in Bali, as the women of Bali are, in essence, already in control. The men just don’t realize or acknowledge it. In the published words of Victor Mason, “they are the most normal people alive.”
While I’m very close to my two sisters in law, Made and Nyoman, discussions like these for me with them are almost impossible, but in our own way, we are able to convey the essentials.
For me, it’s absolutely GREAT to be able to share some frank conversation with Ni Luh and Kadek (and hopefully not forgetting someone else). In a very serious way, I feel we are kindred spirits. They, as Balinese are living away from Bali, and me, a foreigner living in Bali. As Ni Luh and Kadek adapt to the culture where they currently live, I do the same thing, here in Bali. Our mutuality is that we each call Bali home. Kadek, you are too kind and I am not deserving of these words,
I am deeply moved by those words, and I cannot proclaim, matur sukusma enough times. I know I will always be what I am, essentially a tamu in Bali, and surely bule. I have no problem accepting that fact, and for me to become Balinese is just not what the Gods had in mind, this time around anyway.. All I want is for my sons to be embraced by Bali, and her people, as that is what they are, currently anak di Bali, and one day, just simply Balinese. In our banjar, that has already happened.
When it’s time for me to pass this world, I will be cremated in adat fashion. After I am purified at the sea, ready to be reincarnated, who knows...maybe when I come back, I’ll be an orang di Bali asli!
In the meantime, (as I’m not that ready to become an orang di Bali asli) I think it’s great that Kadek and Ni Luh offer so much, as they do, to this forum. In spite of all my efforts, both with my own wife, and my cousin Wayan Dedik, they both seem to find the time to be here impossible. I think both Ni Luh and Kadek understand that very well. Balinese on Bali are very, very busy people and finding the time to even check their e-mail is almost impossible.
Ni Luh, the “pinning over Thorsten” thing was just a continuation of the fun you all were having. That’s it.
I want to leave this post with an item I recently found while cleaning out my files. I wrote this in 1998 and I think I posted it on the Bali Travel Forum. Now re-reading it, my mind hasn’t been changed a bit:
FEMME DE BALI
For me, the “femme de Bali” are among the most beautiful and unique women in the world. The women of Bali are strong, physically and emotionally. This great strength is balanced with a tenderness and grace I’ve not experienced anywhere else on earth. Their grace is evident to all who come to Bali and simply watch them as they conduct their daily activities. Their tenderness, however, can only be appreciated through intimate relationships.
In the early days of Bali’s rise in fame as a tourist destination, specifically the 1920’s and 30’s, it was the appeal of Balinese women that constituted the major draw. Expatriate artists, Willem Hofker for example, sought to ennoble these unique women on paper and canvas. Other artists of note and fame as Le Mayeur de Merpres, attempted the same. Indigenous Balinese art of that time, and unto today, presents the Balinese woman in the most admirable light, with complete respect, reverence and a deserved noble status.
Tourists are often appalled, as I was myself when first seeing trucks filled with large and heavy rocks being off loaded by Balinese women as the male driver sat in comfort smoking his cigarette. To this very day, the likelihood of a Balinese woman being married before she is pregnant by her suitor is slim. It would never occur, or be accepted by the Balinese male that he might be “shooting blanks.”
But, do not feel sorry for the Balinese women. Balinese society, albeit seemingly male dominated, is also very matriarchal. Young Balinese boys are taught from birth to respect and love their mothers, and in their upbringing within traditional Balinese compounds they also learn to love, respect, and admire their sisters, aunties, grandmothers, and virtually every female member of their Banjar.
In short, Balinese men are allowed and expected to be men by Balinese women, and women are allowed, and expected to be women by Balinese men, in spite of their biological and social disparity. It all seems to work here better than anywhere else in the world. There is no such thing as “women’s liberation” here in Bali, as the women of Bali are, in essence, already in control. The men just don’t realize or acknowledge it. In the published words of Victor Mason, “they are the most normal people alive.”
Colin writes:
And second hand smoke too, as you've said.
Sorry Colin, but I have to ask....is there anything human about being human that you can tolerate?
Child rearing is "particularly bad here in Indonesia?" Did you really write that?
Sorry Colin, but it's very doubtful that we will ever get together here in Bali for a drink, dinner, or even a chat.
Moreover, please let me know where in Sanur you live so I can bring my three totally wild boys your way, while dad smokes!
GOOD GRIEF! Beware on your next trip to Ubud! It would be all too comical, and enjoying for me, to bring all the kids from my village, and all the smokers too to your restaurant of choice!
I have no problem with your golden...but what a shame as golldens LOVE kids!
Sorry "amigo" but you are on my "X" list! :evil: :evil: :evil:
And second hand smoke too, as you've said.
Sorry Colin, but I have to ask....is there anything human about being human that you can tolerate?
Child rearing is "particularly bad here in Indonesia?" Did you really write that?
Sorry Colin, but it's very doubtful that we will ever get together here in Bali for a drink, dinner, or even a chat.
Moreover, please let me know where in Sanur you live so I can bring my three totally wild boys your way, while dad smokes!
GOOD GRIEF! Beware on your next trip to Ubud! It would be all too comical, and enjoying for me, to bring all the kids from my village, and all the smokers too to your restaurant of choice!
I have no problem with your golden...but what a shame as golldens LOVE kids!
Sorry "amigo" but you are on my "X" list! :evil: :evil: :evil:
Colin,roy
I'm going to add fuel to the fire here,pardon my comment.
When i was in bali there was a worker with 6 kids all females,he was poor,no work,nothing! living in a little house in kaliasem everyone in one room on the floor. i said anymore kids? he said yes ,my wife and i will keep trying to have a 'son' untill then we keep trying,we only have female children. OK how can this be good for anyone,the parents have nothing to feed the children,no school,no clothing,no work................more children? after that conversation i was dumfounded. any comments?
Yes i know the balinese would rather have boys in the family,so skip that part.
Gina Tyler
I'm going to add fuel to the fire here,pardon my comment.
When i was in bali there was a worker with 6 kids all females,he was poor,no work,nothing! living in a little house in kaliasem everyone in one room on the floor. i said anymore kids? he said yes ,my wife and i will keep trying to have a 'son' untill then we keep trying,we only have female children. OK how can this be good for anyone,the parents have nothing to feed the children,no school,no clothing,no work................more children? after that conversation i was dumfounded. any comments?
Yes i know the balinese would rather have boys in the family,so skip that part.
Gina Tyler
G
Guest
Guest
Hi Gina
I can foresee fireworks. Let's hope they are pleasantly entertaining...
Re. kids. I believe it is up to the women to decide when and how many kids they will be having. At the end of the day it’s the woman that has to carry the baby for 9 months. That is my opinion anyway….But you are right in the Balinese should be more cautious and educated in the matter of how many children they have.
Hi Colin
This is what I meant when I wrote the following
So I guess welcome to the forum :lol:..don’t get put off. However, I must say you are new in the forum and your posts so far can be construed as negative thus far, this is bound to upset people. I am not here to say whether you are right or wrong just give a bit advice. I personally am interested in hearing more about your experience in Bali i.e. Golden Retrievers etc. Are you into cats? Just as my interest, if it is not too personal, are you American, Australian, British or what :?:
Just to add unfortunately my husband is a smoker, and would love to stop. He does smoke on occasion in restaurants, but always does so only when there is no one in near vicinity eating, otherwise he would pop outside if he is desperate. I think the governments are at fault as they banned cocaine (used to be in Coca Cola) and many other drugs at the early part of the 20th century but never banned the drug nicotine. The British Government make approximately 10 billions sterling pounds a year from smokers. It is a big business. I heard, can’t quote figure, part of a typical western pension is invested into tobacco companies, as they are part of the global economy. So you might actually be paying money to promote smoking :shock:
If you want to impress Oom Roy then pop to Nuris and drink 14 Martinis :lol: You will then be on top of a new list :shock: :lol:
As ever I look forward to hearing from you.
Oom Roy
I am sure Colin likes children. Everyone has a child in them. Maybe Colin will be able to explain to everyone his feelings towards children.
Many thanks.
Ni Luh
gina said:
I can foresee fireworks. Let's hope they are pleasantly entertaining...
Re. kids. I believe it is up to the women to decide when and how many kids they will be having. At the end of the day it’s the woman that has to carry the baby for 9 months. That is my opinion anyway….But you are right in the Balinese should be more cautious and educated in the matter of how many children they have.
Hi Colin
This is what I meant when I wrote the following
pooochie said:
So I guess welcome to the forum :lol:..don’t get put off. However, I must say you are new in the forum and your posts so far can be construed as negative thus far, this is bound to upset people. I am not here to say whether you are right or wrong just give a bit advice. I personally am interested in hearing more about your experience in Bali i.e. Golden Retrievers etc. Are you into cats? Just as my interest, if it is not too personal, are you American, Australian, British or what :?:
Just to add unfortunately my husband is a smoker, and would love to stop. He does smoke on occasion in restaurants, but always does so only when there is no one in near vicinity eating, otherwise he would pop outside if he is desperate. I think the governments are at fault as they banned cocaine (used to be in Coca Cola) and many other drugs at the early part of the 20th century but never banned the drug nicotine. The British Government make approximately 10 billions sterling pounds a year from smokers. It is a big business. I heard, can’t quote figure, part of a typical western pension is invested into tobacco companies, as they are part of the global economy. So you might actually be paying money to promote smoking :shock:
If you want to impress Oom Roy then pop to Nuris and drink 14 Martinis :lol: You will then be on top of a new list :shock: :lol:
As ever I look forward to hearing from you.
Oom Roy
I am sure Colin likes children. Everyone has a child in them. Maybe Colin will be able to explain to everyone his feelings towards children.
Many thanks.
Ni Luh
Yo Colin! Don't take this forum stuff too personally. Likely it is that we will meet this Saturday at the memorial for Andy Toth.
Personally, I'm looking forward to it..meeting the only expat I've ever met who hates smoking, Balinese drivers, and kids! :shock:
Personally, I'm looking forward to it..meeting the only expat I've ever met who hates smoking, Balinese drivers, and kids! :shock:
I love kids. Wish I had the money to have a hundred. The joy of my life they are, through all of the different times and phases and heartbreak and joy.
I cannot understand what my life is about if not for my and others children. I hope soon to be playing with everybodies kids in my kampong and being called nineh.
What are we here fore if not for our children. Its nature at its finest and although each to their own for timings and numbers I have yet to meet any male or female who do not get a bit broody about them.
To see the joy in the eyes of a mother and father for a newborn child is an amazing sight.
Black, brown or white, boy or girl, sick or well I defy anybody not to love children even when they drive you crazy. My eldest baby is 33 and my youngest 13. They will always be my children and I love them to bits, so much I cannot envisage life without them.
Oh, just in case the message did not come across I like children
I also like women in the same way....just because they are women. All my best friends are women. There was a time when my doctor, dentist and lawyer were women. I like women almost as much as I like babies.
Any women want a baby I am delighted to help.......Ouch Artificial Insemination only Darling....ouch ouch ouch
I cannot understand what my life is about if not for my and others children. I hope soon to be playing with everybodies kids in my kampong and being called nineh.
What are we here fore if not for our children. Its nature at its finest and although each to their own for timings and numbers I have yet to meet any male or female who do not get a bit broody about them.
To see the joy in the eyes of a mother and father for a newborn child is an amazing sight.
Black, brown or white, boy or girl, sick or well I defy anybody not to love children even when they drive you crazy. My eldest baby is 33 and my youngest 13. They will always be my children and I love them to bits, so much I cannot envisage life without them.
Oh, just in case the message did not come across I like children
I also like women in the same way....just because they are women. All my best friends are women. There was a time when my doctor, dentist and lawyer were women. I like women almost as much as I like babies.
Any women want a baby I am delighted to help.......Ouch Artificial Insemination only Darling....ouch ouch ouch
Roy, what I actually said was, the indiscipline is particularly bad here, not the child rearing itself. There's a subtle diference. And I did say my Golden totally adores kids.......strange dog! :wink: :lol:
A lot of what I write is, as of course you've no doubt guessed, a little 'tongue in cheek'.........sometimes I feel a little more serious than others. Good forum though, and apparently nice folks.
Ni Luh, sorry I don't have any particular affection for cats, although I do care for most animals. And I'm a Brit, as you ask.
Sorry, got to skip now...got a date with a 4 hour I/V drip. Yuk...boring!
Colin.
[/u]
A lot of what I write is, as of course you've no doubt guessed, a little 'tongue in cheek'.........sometimes I feel a little more serious than others. Good forum though, and apparently nice folks.
Ni Luh, sorry I don't have any particular affection for cats, although I do care for most animals. And I'm a Brit, as you ask.
Sorry, got to skip now...got a date with a 4 hour I/V drip. Yuk...boring!
Colin.
[/u]
Ni Luh wrote:
In a "perfect world" maybe that would happen, but in the end, it's not up to the women, (from a biological point of view) exactly, what happens when those little swimmers...sperm...meet the egg.
One change I have noted though, over the years...and to my utter delight, is that many Balinese marriages are going on wiithout the woman being already pregnant.
In spite of the real need, and emphasis to sire males, who will carry on in the traditions that are so important to Bali, it is for me very pleasing to see less and less pressure on the women of Bali.
My wife, Nyoman Eri, and I have three sons. Her slightly older sister Made has three girls with her Balinese husband. How does Dadong and Ba Pak treat them? All equally with the love and affection that any grandmom, or grandad treats thier grandchildren anywhere in the world.
I'm still trying to get myself up, off the floor, after reading this quote from Colin:
I can understand the hate of secondary smoke in restaurants, and I surely appreciate the driving issues...but the kids?
Bloody hell, I don't know what else to say! For me, my kids and my wife are the only reason I draw breath every day, and for certain, I could never imagine a greater place to raise children than right here on Bali.
In our village, our kids roam free. In our village, it is not just mom and dad, grandmom or grandad that raises them....it's the whole village!
We never worry about where they are, as we know they will be back. There is no fear in the raising of our kids. Respect and manners...yes...but no fear. And I see this same thing with all Balinese families raising young children in our village.
A thousand times I have flushed down the toilet the western ways of child rearing. A thousand times I have refused to let my boys be raised in the destructive manner of competion, and emphasis to "be the best."
Why so many dads, and moms, obsess over the future of their offspring is beyond me. That dads and moms think that they can manipulate or massage their kids into what they want them to be is nuts.
The Gods have given me and Eri a great gift...three very healthy boys. Within our lives, we acknowledge this gift, and we live to one day see them as young men. Neither Eri or I care if they are doctors, lawyers, or rice farmers. Our only wish is that we did what was expected...not by the words of others...but by the Gods.
Every Balinese family with children would agree with me, as this is one of the essences of Bali. Bali loves her anak...and that's just the way it is.
In a "perfect world" maybe that would happen, but in the end, it's not up to the women, (from a biological point of view) exactly, what happens when those little swimmers...sperm...meet the egg.
One change I have noted though, over the years...and to my utter delight, is that many Balinese marriages are going on wiithout the woman being already pregnant.
In spite of the real need, and emphasis to sire males, who will carry on in the traditions that are so important to Bali, it is for me very pleasing to see less and less pressure on the women of Bali.
My wife, Nyoman Eri, and I have three sons. Her slightly older sister Made has three girls with her Balinese husband. How does Dadong and Ba Pak treat them? All equally with the love and affection that any grandmom, or grandad treats thier grandchildren anywhere in the world.
I'm still trying to get myself up, off the floor, after reading this quote from Colin:
I can understand the hate of secondary smoke in restaurants, and I surely appreciate the driving issues...but the kids?
Bloody hell, I don't know what else to say! For me, my kids and my wife are the only reason I draw breath every day, and for certain, I could never imagine a greater place to raise children than right here on Bali.
In our village, our kids roam free. In our village, it is not just mom and dad, grandmom or grandad that raises them....it's the whole village!
We never worry about where they are, as we know they will be back. There is no fear in the raising of our kids. Respect and manners...yes...but no fear. And I see this same thing with all Balinese families raising young children in our village.
A thousand times I have flushed down the toilet the western ways of child rearing. A thousand times I have refused to let my boys be raised in the destructive manner of competion, and emphasis to "be the best."
Why so many dads, and moms, obsess over the future of their offspring is beyond me. That dads and moms think that they can manipulate or massage their kids into what they want them to be is nuts.
The Gods have given me and Eri a great gift...three very healthy boys. Within our lives, we acknowledge this gift, and we live to one day see them as young men. Neither Eri or I care if they are doctors, lawyers, or rice farmers. Our only wish is that we did what was expected...not by the words of others...but by the Gods.
Every Balinese family with children would agree with me, as this is one of the essences of Bali. Bali loves her anak...and that's just the way it is.
From passive smooking, arrange marriage and now about childern. It´s very complete. I think, familie without children is not signigicant that they dont love childern :roll: . I have any childern ... work oft with childern ... and my husband works daily in the scholl with more than 400 childern ... so i can understand, if he would like to enjoy his freetime without schreaming from childern ... kids is kids but we love calmy and lovely childern.. :lol:
Do you know ... that some hotels in Bali offer their restfully ambient that "Kids is not welcoming overthere"...
Do you know ... that some hotels in Bali offer their restfully ambient that "Kids is not welcoming overthere"...
Dear Ni Luh
What does “bebet” mean?
And yes I did miss the other thread about us Angels pinning on Thorsten.
Well, as it seems that Thorsten quite enjoyed the attention…….I shall continue……..the War Game!
Ni Luh, I knew I can always count on you to find the best Warrior around. I am really flattered now. But, I guess……..we could keep this game out of the scrutiny of this forum for now and off course keep it a secret from our beloved and newly rehabilitated Warrior Thorsten the Great…………less he feels heartbroken, neglected and helpless in the prospect of competing with Jabber’s cousin who you said is at the caliber of Brad Pitt (which by the way still needs to be proven……….of course!).
We’ll see how Warrior Thorsten is fairing in Bali……..when he cares to give us an update. :evil: I had the feeling he probably tried his luck with the infamous Roy’s & Eri’s table at Lotus Lane Restaurant. If indeed he is lucky to find a Balinese Angel over there……. :cry: .I will have no choice but to accept your offer……………and will miss on a great fight of two warriors. But make sure you talk to this poor guy first…….as he doesn’t know what trouble he is getting himself into.
Okay….enough joking for the moment and back to some serious stuff!
Well, I don’t know much about this topic. So what I am going to say……..is only a reflection of my observation and/or fear and not coming from personal experience.
I personally think that marriages are not as sacredly uphold nowadays here in the west, with high rate of divorces and a large proportion living in de facto relationships for years. I am glad that it is still a very important thing in Bali and that marriages are more likely to survive the distance in the case of Bali – can’t be certain of figure for this.
Kids……well I sometimes wonder whether it is healthy to bring children into this world in such shaky parental foundation. The children will definitely suffer in the event mum and dad separating. There seems to be no willingness in these modern days for people to fight for a relationship – to keep unity of the family. I read somewhere that often some of the reasons couples split are because of trivial personal differences of man versus woman and not because of fundamental flaws in the marriage (e.g. abuses, infidelity). The saddest thing is that divorces can become ugly and what once were loving relationships turn into all out war and hatred. How can this be possible? :?
I personally think, that if there is the possibility that one will not be able to stick through a marriage (talking about a normal marriage) then people should not consider having children. I guess the question then become how would one predict this? :?:
Well I don’t know the answer. I would like to know the answer. Perhaps those who have gone through the experience and/or trauma will be able to share it with us here in the Forum????????
Furthermore, I also feel apprehensive and sad that children are now facing a lot of uncertainties and problems growing up……..possibility of growing up in a broken home, increased in crimes, environmental degradation, war, nuclear threat, unnatural food etc.etc. and there are already so many of us in this world. Can this earth sustain more of us?
:?: :cry:
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that if or when I am lucky enough to marry one day that I don’t want to have children. I have always been afraid of babies………only because they seem so fragile……….and yes it is sometimes quite a battle to handle toddlers and young children. But I guess if it is your own………it is a different matter. Just for the sake of speculating a future I can’t foresee, then I would say I probably want to have a child or two…………….I don’t know??????? This will be a decision that needs to be discussed in seriousness and the commitment to stick through and defend this decision.
Hi Mbak Gina,
Ya, I agree with you that it is a very strange logic and it becomes a vicious circle of poverty for this family.
I can only guess the reasoning behind this. So, this is what I think……
Practical reason: more children mean more labour and human resources to help with the sawah, etc. and thus in time will bring greater income to the family. This strategy might work in the old days but in the present modern era this fails completely. The family being poor will not be able to provide adequate education to prepare and give a better chance to the children to earn better living. So failing this, the children will grow up in poverty, uneducated and thus will only be able to get low paying jobs.
I agree that education is essential to raise awareness to these poor families that having many children does not help to create a better future and concentrating their investment on one or two will in the long term be better for the family.
Traditional reason: it is true, a son is considered very important to continue the family line and not only in Bali but still generally true in Asia. Look at China, with the one child policy many pregnancies for girls are terminated as families want boys and now the population is increasingly imbalance.
However, there is a way that family can still continue the family line in Bali even without a son. It is called getting a “Santana”. This is when one of the girls assumes the role of a son and when she marries, her new husband joins her family instead of her leaving for his family.
However, to attract a suitable male to leave his own family and join her family, her family has to have some kind of “other attraction”. Otherwise, it is quite a challenge for the family. And as the family is poor, they might think that the chances of the next pregnancy being a boy is greater than the chances of being able to provide enough to attract a suitable Santana to the family????
Regards
Kadek
What does “bebet” mean?
And yes I did miss the other thread about us Angels pinning on Thorsten.
Well, as it seems that Thorsten quite enjoyed the attention…….I shall continue……..the War Game!
Ni Luh, I knew I can always count on you to find the best Warrior around. I am really flattered now. But, I guess……..we could keep this game out of the scrutiny of this forum for now and off course keep it a secret from our beloved and newly rehabilitated Warrior Thorsten the Great…………less he feels heartbroken, neglected and helpless in the prospect of competing with Jabber’s cousin who you said is at the caliber of Brad Pitt (which by the way still needs to be proven……….of course!). We’ll see how Warrior Thorsten is fairing in Bali……..when he cares to give us an update. :evil: I had the feeling he probably tried his luck with the infamous Roy’s & Eri’s table at Lotus Lane Restaurant. If indeed he is lucky to find a Balinese Angel over there……. :cry: .I will have no choice but to accept your offer……………and will miss on a great fight of two warriors.
But make sure you talk to this poor guy first…….as he doesn’t know what trouble he is getting himself into. Okay….enough joking for the moment and back to some serious stuff!
Well, I don’t know much about this topic. So what I am going to say……..is only a reflection of my observation and/or fear and not coming from personal experience.
I personally think that marriages are not as sacredly uphold nowadays here in the west, with high rate of divorces and a large proportion living in de facto relationships for years. I am glad that it is still a very important thing in Bali and that marriages are more likely to survive the distance in the case of Bali – can’t be certain of figure for this.
Kids……well I sometimes wonder whether it is healthy to bring children into this world in such shaky parental foundation. The children will definitely suffer in the event mum and dad separating. There seems to be no willingness in these modern days for people to fight for a relationship – to keep unity of the family. I read somewhere that often some of the reasons couples split are because of trivial personal differences of man versus woman and not because of fundamental flaws in the marriage (e.g. abuses, infidelity). The saddest thing is that divorces can become ugly and what once were loving relationships turn into all out war and hatred. How can this be possible? :?
I personally think, that if there is the possibility that one will not be able to stick through a marriage (talking about a normal marriage) then people should not consider having children. I guess the question then become how would one predict this? :?:
Well I don’t know the answer. I would like to know the answer. Perhaps those who have gone through the experience and/or trauma will be able to share it with us here in the Forum????????
Furthermore, I also feel apprehensive and sad that children are now facing a lot of uncertainties and problems growing up……..possibility of growing up in a broken home, increased in crimes, environmental degradation, war, nuclear threat, unnatural food etc.etc. and there are already so many of us in this world. Can this earth sustain more of us?
:?: :cry:
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that if or when I am lucky enough to marry one day that I don’t want to have children. I have always been afraid of babies………only because they seem so fragile……….and yes it is sometimes quite a battle to handle toddlers and young children. But I guess if it is your own………it is a different matter. Just for the sake of speculating a future I can’t foresee, then I would say I probably want to have a child or two…………….I don’t know??????? This will be a decision that needs to be discussed in seriousness and the commitment to stick through and defend this decision.
Hi Mbak Gina,
:shock:
Ya, I agree with you that it is a very strange logic and it becomes a vicious circle of poverty for this family.
I can only guess the reasoning behind this. So, this is what I think……
Practical reason: more children mean more labour and human resources to help with the sawah, etc. and thus in time will bring greater income to the family. This strategy might work in the old days but in the present modern era this fails completely. The family being poor will not be able to provide adequate education to prepare and give a better chance to the children to earn better living. So failing this, the children will grow up in poverty, uneducated and thus will only be able to get low paying jobs.
I agree that education is essential to raise awareness to these poor families that having many children does not help to create a better future and concentrating their investment on one or two will in the long term be better for the family.
Traditional reason: it is true, a son is considered very important to continue the family line and not only in Bali but still generally true in Asia. Look at China, with the one child policy many pregnancies for girls are terminated as families want boys and now the population is increasingly imbalance.
However, there is a way that family can still continue the family line in Bali even without a son. It is called getting a “Santana”. This is when one of the girls assumes the role of a son and when she marries, her new husband joins her family instead of her leaving for his family.
However, to attract a suitable male to leave his own family and join her family, her family has to have some kind of “other attraction”. Otherwise, it is quite a challenge for the family. And as the family is poor, they might think that the chances of the next pregnancy being a boy is greater than the chances of being able to provide enough to attract a suitable Santana to the family????
Regards
Kadek
Hi Colin,
Sorry for being rude previously by not welcoming you. Welcome to the Forum and well done for having successfully bring about some very interesting topics, which make the Forum interesting to follow.
I don’t quite understand what you mean by “indiscipline”. Is it the way parents can sometimes be reckless – referring to the previous discussion on reckless driving and children on motorbikes? :?: :?
From my experience and observation, the children in Bali/Indonesia, I think, have better manner and discipline compared to children in Western upbringing e.g. in Australia.
Children in Bali are thought to respect older people, their teachers, parents, etc.. I guess children here too are thought that way. However, I find the children here are very spoiled and don’t respect elderly people as much. There have been many instances talked about that children at schools here have very little respect towards their teachers. Teachers are afraid to discipline students as it might be construed as child abuse.
I do some works with school children here and children reaction and manner are very different than what I know in Bali.
I must say that maybe children here have more freedom to express themselves and thus seemed to be more creative and upfront. Children in Bali are thought to be modest and are more reserved.
So would you care to explain what you mean by your statement that
I am interested to know your opinion about this issue.
Hi Om Roy
This is what I always remember growing up. It is a shame that children here in Australia (well in the city I am living currently) haven’t got the freedom to do the same. I have never seen this on the street here. Children play in their own yards or being driven to friends place to play there. You never see, children taking care of themselves – going from one house to the next in the neighouhood and just being kids …….enjoying the freedom, having fun and parents know that their children are safe and well.
Though, I do sometimes think of how it is becoming perhaps dangerous now that there are many predators and pedophiles lurking in Bali and are taking advantage of this care free upbringing of innocent children. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Regards
Kadek
Sorry for being rude previously by not welcoming you. Welcome to the Forum and well done for having successfully bring about some very interesting topics, which make the Forum interesting to follow.
I don’t quite understand what you mean by “indiscipline”. Is it the way parents can sometimes be reckless – referring to the previous discussion on reckless driving and children on motorbikes? :?: :?
From my experience and observation, the children in Bali/Indonesia, I think, have better manner and discipline compared to children in Western upbringing e.g. in Australia.
Children in Bali are thought to respect older people, their teachers, parents, etc.. I guess children here too are thought that way. However, I find the children here are very spoiled and don’t respect elderly people as much. There have been many instances talked about that children at schools here have very little respect towards their teachers. Teachers are afraid to discipline students as it might be construed as child abuse.
I do some works with school children here and children reaction and manner are very different than what I know in Bali.
I must say that maybe children here have more freedom to express themselves and thus seemed to be more creative and upfront. Children in Bali are thought to be modest and are more reserved.
So would you care to explain what you mean by your statement that
I am interested to know your opinion about this issue.
Hi Om Roy
This is what I always remember growing up. It is a shame that children here in Australia (well in the city I am living currently) haven’t got the freedom to do the same. I have never seen this on the street here. Children play in their own yards or being driven to friends place to play there. You never see, children taking care of themselves – going from one house to the next in the neighouhood and just being kids …….enjoying the freedom, having fun and parents know that their children are safe and well.
Though, I do sometimes think of how it is becoming perhaps dangerous now that there are many predators and pedophiles lurking in Bali and are taking advantage of this care free upbringing of innocent children. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Regards
Kadek
No kidding! (no pun intended... ok maybe a little... lol) I really couldn't agree more! Better family values is one of the MAIN reason why I look forward to raising my children in Bali. Monkey see monkey do... and my monkeys can play with the Balinese kids anyday!Kadek said:
Dear Kadek
Such a wise woman with words so true,thank you for again a wonderfull post.
Gina Tyler
Such a wise woman with words so true,thank you for again a wonderfull post.
Gina Tyler
Dear Kadek, about the game...i think three warriors is better than two...
So i have other warrior candidate for you: german, in your age (one or two years older), love bali very-very-very much, is hindu, a good man and good looking too...can speak good bahasa Indonesia (he is my student ). He is since 2 years singel and looking for hindu woman... I think he know this forum...maybe he read this post...
About your post about children etc.: sehr gut! muy bien! very good ...
So i have other warrior candidate for you: german, in your age (one or two years older), love bali very-very-very much, is hindu, a good man and good looking too...can speak good bahasa Indonesia (he is my student
). He is since 2 years singel and looking for hindu woman... I think he know this forum...maybe he read this post... About your post about children etc.: sehr gut! muy bien! very good ...
K-DECK the childhood you discribe in Bali currently sounds like the childhood we had here in the usa before the Barney generation . My only question is , are the kids of Bali smoking in the resurants to ?