Isn't it amazing
- Thread starter Jimbo
- Start date
Roy writes:
I would have thought, since Roy claims to be a “classical” music lover, he would know, at least, the basics of music theory. But although Roy claims to be a well-integrated expat in Bali, he still thinks like an arrogant Yankee who believes that the world revolves around western civilization.
Of course, when I walk into a Virgin or Tower Records store in Paris, London, or New York, and I ask for the “classical section,” I will be directed to a section where I can find music by Haydn, Beethoven, Stravinsky, or Khachaturian. But I am afraid that in a music store in Delhi, if I ask for the “classical” section, I most likely first be asked, “north Indian or south Indian?” and will then be directed to a section where I will find music by Bhimsen Joshi, Ravi Shankar, Hariprasad Chaurasia, or by M. Balamuralikrishna or M.S. Subbulakshmi. And when Arjoto, the leader of our Boston Village Gamelan, talked about “classical” music, we knew he did not mean Beethoven or Shostakovich, but maybe Subowo or Suwardi.
Where to start, as I don’t feel like spending time teaching music theory?
1) The term “classical” is contrasted with “popular” or “folk music.” Thus, each area on the globe, each country has these types of music.
2) In the English language, “classical” refers to the European classical tradition. But this is ONLY in the English language. Musicologists, when talking about musical traditions, must differentiate between styles and always specify “Western” classical music, unless there is no ambiguity about what type of “classical” music they are talking about.
3) Russia is located in Europe, and therefore its music composers are considered Western composers. However, it is NOT because they are native from a European country, but because of the rules they follow in their compositions. But Japanese composer Toru Takemitsu writes music in the Western classical style, using, most of the time, the well-tempered scale. He does not write in the classical Gagaku or Kokufu kabu styles. He is considered a Western classical composer of Japanese origine.
4) These rules of music composition are characterized among other things, by the melodies, harmonies, and rhythms.
5) In traditional Western music, classical or others, scale degrees are most often separated by equally tempered tones or semitones, creating at most, twelve pitches. Other musical traditions use scales that include other intervals and/or a different number of pitches. For examples, Indian classical music uses a microtonic scale. Gamelan music uses a variety of scales including Pélog and Sléndro, which has no equally tempered intervals.
Etc, etc.
It’s too bad you never took the opportunity (from what you wrote, I know you did not) to have conversations with one of your neighbor, the renowned ethnomusicologist Robert E. Brown, who lived for long time near your village, at his Girikusuma (Flower Mountain) in Payangan. And if you could have been quite and listen for a change, you might have learn something about “classical” music. I did.
I would have thought, since Roy claims to be a “classical” music lover, he would know, at least, the basics of music theory. But although Roy claims to be a well-integrated expat in Bali, he still thinks like an arrogant Yankee who believes that the world revolves around western civilization.
Of course, when I walk into a Virgin or Tower Records store in Paris, London, or New York, and I ask for the “classical section,” I will be directed to a section where I can find music by Haydn, Beethoven, Stravinsky, or Khachaturian. But I am afraid that in a music store in Delhi, if I ask for the “classical” section, I most likely first be asked, “north Indian or south Indian?” and will then be directed to a section where I will find music by Bhimsen Joshi, Ravi Shankar, Hariprasad Chaurasia, or by M. Balamuralikrishna or M.S. Subbulakshmi. And when Arjoto, the leader of our Boston Village Gamelan, talked about “classical” music, we knew he did not mean Beethoven or Shostakovich, but maybe Subowo or Suwardi.
Where to start, as I don’t feel like spending time teaching music theory?
1) The term “classical” is contrasted with “popular” or “folk music.” Thus, each area on the globe, each country has these types of music.
2) In the English language, “classical” refers to the European classical tradition. But this is ONLY in the English language. Musicologists, when talking about musical traditions, must differentiate between styles and always specify “Western” classical music, unless there is no ambiguity about what type of “classical” music they are talking about.
3) Russia is located in Europe, and therefore its music composers are considered Western composers. However, it is NOT because they are native from a European country, but because of the rules they follow in their compositions. But Japanese composer Toru Takemitsu writes music in the Western classical style, using, most of the time, the well-tempered scale. He does not write in the classical Gagaku or Kokufu kabu styles. He is considered a Western classical composer of Japanese origine.
4) These rules of music composition are characterized among other things, by the melodies, harmonies, and rhythms.
5) In traditional Western music, classical or others, scale degrees are most often separated by equally tempered tones or semitones, creating at most, twelve pitches. Other musical traditions use scales that include other intervals and/or a different number of pitches. For examples, Indian classical music uses a microtonic scale. Gamelan music uses a variety of scales including Pélog and Sléndro, which has no equally tempered intervals.
Etc, etc.
It’s too bad you never took the opportunity (from what you wrote, I know you did not) to have conversations with one of your neighbor, the renowned ethnomusicologist Robert E. Brown, who lived for long time near your village, at his Girikusuma (Flower Mountain) in Payangan. And if you could have been quite and listen for a change, you might have learn something about “classical” music. I did.
as Jabber W wrote :
The Doors : all the songs
Pear Jam : all songs, but the most : immortality, better man
Texas (1970 band) : dust in the wind
beattles : here, there and everywhere, imagine
Cranberries : imagination
andy william : all his song
barry manillow : mandy
josh groban & Charlotte Church
The corrs
Live : Alone
REM : man in the moon
Classic music : pacelbe, Mozart, etc
ooops... sorry this list will getting so long
The Doors : all the songs
Pear Jam : all songs, but the most : immortality, better man
Texas (1970 band) : dust in the wind
beattles : here, there and everywhere, imagine
Cranberries : imagination
andy william : all his song
barry manillow : mandy
josh groban & Charlotte Church
The corrs
Live : Alone
REM : man in the moon
Classic music : pacelbe, Mozart, etc
ooops... sorry this list will getting so long
Daniel, is this another one of your made up stories, like how you and Victor Mason were such good friends and spent hours together talking at Beggar’s Bush?
While Victor is thankfully still alive, and can confirm that he’s never heard of you, as he has said to me on more than one occasion, Mr. Brown is unfortunately no longer with us. However, just so you know, yes I had meet Bob several times over the years. I also knew Andy Toth, another renowned ethnomusicologist quite well. From my experiences with both men, I don’t think either would give a hoot how a music store in Delhi organized their shelves!
I know you like to get your exercise by jumping to conclusions, but Daniel, you really need to work on your Kermit syndrome.
RE: Isn
"Isn't it amazing" how subjects can get changed around from the origianl topic to what we have now.
Roy
Another potential battle with Tintin? Why can you not let this animosity stop. This kind of sniping at people is beneath you and detracts from the respect and affection we hold you in.
Take my advice old friend and just let things pass from time to time. You will feel so much better.
"Isn't it amazing" how subjects can get changed around from the origianl topic to what we have now.
Roy
Another potential battle with Tintin? Why can you not let this animosity stop. This kind of sniping at people is beneath you and detracts from the respect and affection we hold you in.
Take my advice old friend and just let things pass from time to time. You will feel so much better.
Jimbo, why don’t you give your advice to Daniel? After all, it was he who referred to me as “an arrogant Yankee.” Maybe you don’t mind that kind of abuse, but I do, and I’m not one to “turn the other cheek.”
It was he, Jimbo, not me who concluded that I had never met Bob Brown. If you want to ask someone to cease with the animosity, then suggest that from Daniel. Fair enough amigo?
It was he, Jimbo, not me who concluded that I had never met Bob Brown. If you want to ask someone to cease with the animosity, then suggest that from Daniel. Fair enough amigo?
G
Guest
Guest
RE: Isn
Jimbo your thread is amazing. I can see we need to execute some damage control. How about a bit humour from the Iraq Minister of Disinformation :lol: :
Sorry could not resist and I thought it was funny enough to share.
Jimbo said:
Jimbo your thread is amazing. I can see we need to execute some damage control. How about a bit humour from the Iraq Minister of Disinformation :lol: :
Sorry could not resist and I thought it was funny enough to share.
G
Guest
Guest
I used this expression more as a generic term than as a personal attack. We tend to see the world in the optic of our own upbringing and culture, and often forget that the world out there is made up of quite a variety of cultures, each with its own experiences and traditions. Living in the US, I find this example of ethnocentricity especially true. Most Americans believe that if only the world would adopt their point of view and live as they do at home, everything in the world would be fine. What better example than Bush’s crusade to impose “American democracy” (read US hegemony) in the Middle East and the rest of the planet.
Here you go again with you Victor Mason obsession :!: :?: I believe I am writing in plain English, your native language, so how can I get it into your thick head that I have NEVER stated that Mason was a "good friend" nor "a friend" of mine? And regarding the fact that you keep bringing up, which is that he does not remember me from Beggar’s Bush, I will repeat it again: that’s his “problem,” most likely from indulging too much.
Now you speak for the departed :?: :shock:
As for the example of how the word “western” is unnecessary when referring to “classical,” you are the one who brought this poor argument up, according to which the record stores would be the final authorities in ethnomusicology, when you wrote,
The remarkable points in your email (and as always)) is that you stick to irrelevent arguments, and avoid the real subject of my post, which had to do with the word “western” associated with “classical.” I gave you my arguments supporting my point, what about yours? (forget about Mason, please)
RE: Isn
Tintin/Daniel, with all due respect you've 'officially quit' this forum like 2-3 times in just these recent months but still seem to return after a few weeks just to 'pick a fight' with Roy. How 'bout a seize-fire extending through all you're future quit&returns so we don't have to read this crap every time you decide to continue the rant and attempts of restoring your credebility by messing with Roy. Luckily I have no credebility to uphold or restore here as i've already made a fool of myself on occassions more than I can count on my fingers & toes.
Tintin/Daniel, with all due respect you've 'officially quit' this forum like 2-3 times in just these recent months but still seem to return after a few weeks just to 'pick a fight' with Roy. How 'bout a seize-fire extending through all you're future quit&returns so we don't have to read this crap every time you decide to continue the rant and attempts of restoring your credebility by messing with Roy. Luckily I have no credebility to uphold or restore here as i've already made a fool of myself on occassions more than I can count on my fingers & toes.
Tommy,
With all due respect, since I joined this forum, in Sep '05, I have only quit once, not 2 - 3 times. It was on Dec 5, '05, to be precise, and I stated my reason then. But I finally gave up and returned to this forum few weeks ago. Since I am not a regular contributer, I understand that it could seem as if I came and went several times. As far as I am concerned, the problem with Roy is that and a.s.a. I post something, I immediately get some snotty remark or put down form him.
You probably would have noticed that it has only happened with Roy, and nobody else. Other members, if they agree or disagree with one of my opinion, do it by sticking to the topic, without being personal. FYI, this was the same on two other fora, from which he was kicked out by the moderators.
With all due respect, since I joined this forum, in Sep '05, I have only quit once, not 2 - 3 times. It was on Dec 5, '05, to be precise, and I stated my reason then. But I finally gave up and returned to this forum few weeks ago. Since I am not a regular contributer, I understand that it could seem as if I came and went several times. As far as I am concerned, the problem with Roy is that and a.s.a. I post something, I immediately get some snotty remark or put down form him.
You probably would have noticed that it has only happened with Roy, and nobody else. Other members, if they agree or disagree with one of my opinion, do it by sticking to the topic, without being personal. FYI, this was the same on two other fora, from which he was kicked out by the moderators.
G
Guest
Guest
I apologize in advance to all forum readers who are finding this tiresome, and suggest if that is the case to stop here, and go to another topic. I cannot let the last posts from Daniel stand, with all of their inaccuracies, without a rebuttal.
Daniel, you write that you use the term arrogant Yankee, “more as a generic term than as a personal attack.” Really? If that were the case, a gentleman would apologize to another gentleman who took offense being referred to in that way. Since you are living in the US, I’d be very careful just how, and to whom you voice that remark, face to face. For a man who claims to be very sensitive and aware of the world’s many cultures, I find it inconsistent that you would consider your reasoning as appropriate.
Moreover, I take very personal offense being lumped in with your assessment of Americans having no awareness or sensitivity to other world cultures. My record on this topic is clearly demonstrated in many of my past posts here, and while you may have the opinion that I am not well integrated here in Bali, (as you expressed in an earlier post), you are very wrong.
You write:
If you really want this to get “into my thick head” then you will need to explain this direct quote from you”
Now you stoop to blame Victor for not remembering you, and blaming it on his “indulging too much.” Daniel, that is pretty low, in fact, it is a downright cheap shot!
You further write:
Daniel, for the sake of accuracy in was YOU who brought up Bob Brown, speaking for HIM. Then you had the audacity to claim I had never met him or had conversations with him.
Daniel, I never claimed that record stores “would be the final authorities in ethnomusicology.” I wasn’t even talking about ethnomusicology...YOU were. And you are right, I don’t know, nor did I ever study music theory. I like classical music simply because I like it. I never realized that it was necessary for me to even know the basics of music theory to enjoy “Night on Bald Mountain.” I didn’t claim to be classical music “lover.” That is your statement. What I wrote was...”to be honest Phil, most of my music collection is classical. I know, boring.”
Finally Daniel, you write,
HUH? You had better re-read this string again! It was YOU Daniel who initiated the “put downs” here without any provocation!
In the interest of peace and harmony on this forum I would be happy to take up Tommy’s suggestion of a “cease fire.” This will be the last I write of this matter, and I welcome Daniel to have the “last word.”
Daniel, you write that you use the term arrogant Yankee, “more as a generic term than as a personal attack.” Really? If that were the case, a gentleman would apologize to another gentleman who took offense being referred to in that way. Since you are living in the US, I’d be very careful just how, and to whom you voice that remark, face to face. For a man who claims to be very sensitive and aware of the world’s many cultures, I find it inconsistent that you would consider your reasoning as appropriate.
Moreover, I take very personal offense being lumped in with your assessment of Americans having no awareness or sensitivity to other world cultures. My record on this topic is clearly demonstrated in many of my past posts here, and while you may have the opinion that I am not well integrated here in Bali, (as you expressed in an earlier post), you are very wrong.
You write:
If you really want this to get “into my thick head” then you will need to explain this direct quote from you”
Now you stoop to blame Victor for not remembering you, and blaming it on his “indulging too much.” Daniel, that is pretty low, in fact, it is a downright cheap shot!
You further write:
Daniel, for the sake of accuracy in was YOU who brought up Bob Brown, speaking for HIM. Then you had the audacity to claim I had never met him or had conversations with him.
Daniel, I never claimed that record stores “would be the final authorities in ethnomusicology.” I wasn’t even talking about ethnomusicology...YOU were. And you are right, I don’t know, nor did I ever study music theory. I like classical music simply because I like it. I never realized that it was necessary for me to even know the basics of music theory to enjoy “Night on Bald Mountain.” I didn’t claim to be classical music “lover.” That is your statement. What I wrote was...”to be honest Phil, most of my music collection is classical. I know, boring.”
Finally Daniel, you write,
HUH? You had better re-read this string again! It was YOU Daniel who initiated the “put downs” here without any provocation!
In the interest of peace and harmony on this forum I would be happy to take up Tommy’s suggestion of a “cease fire.” This will be the last I write of this matter, and I welcome Daniel to have the “last word.”
G
Guest
Guest
Thanks for the invitation of having "the last word."
First, I apologize for referring to you as an “arrogant Yankee.”
Second.
I would hope that you finally admit that, although I stand by my above quote, I have also never said nor pretended that Victor is or ever was a friend of mine (Although there is nothing wrong, as far as I know, having Victor for a friend). Drinking with a person, no matter how often, does not make two people friends.
THE END
First, I apologize for referring to you as an “arrogant Yankee.”
Second.
I would hope that you finally admit that, although I stand by my above quote, I have also never said nor pretended that Victor is or ever was a friend of mine (Although there is nothing wrong, as far as I know, having Victor for a friend). Drinking with a person, no matter how often, does not make two people friends.
THE END
Daniel, your apology is accepted and greatly appreciated. Many thanks. I apologize as well for my past indiscretions. Let’s put this all behind us, and move on, as I am certain that we share much more common ground than battlefields.
By the way, I just spoke with Victor at Nuris and he asked me to say hello!
JUST KIDDING....it’s my Sienfeldesque sense of humor.
By the way, I just spoke with Victor at Nuris and he asked me to say hello!
JUST KIDDING....it’s my Sienfeldesque sense of humor.
Re: RE: Isn't it amazing
Kinda takes the wind out of your sails. :wink:
Good to see you boys making some concessions at last. Impressive!
I'd like to add that I think the most insightful comment in this entire thread was made by Roy.
Don't you just hate that! Trying to be both apologetic and suitably indignant all in the same breath and then "oh bugger, I forgot to log in!"tintin said:
Kinda takes the wind out of your sails. :wink: Good to see you boys making some concessions at last. Impressive!
I'd like to add that I think the most insightful comment in this entire thread was made by Roy.
Roy said:
RE: Isn
Well done guys. I happen to think you both write extremely well and intelligently. Keep it up we need both of you in here.
Well done guys. I happen to think you both write extremely well and intelligently. Keep it up we need both of you in here.