Indo enactment regarding Porn

[dahlia]

Smusdar wrote:

just wonder, why most people blame this law on islamic people ? we never insist our religion our or rules to non islamic.. we may not do that..
Islam rules/ al quran only for islamic, we do not allow to insit other people to behave like us (muslims)

I personally do not blame those who thinks that way. It is quite obvious.
Maybe when they wrote this RUU, most of the MPR members forget about Bhineka Tunggal Ika, they forget that this country has more than 13K islands and thousands of culture (and not just moslem religion as the kiblat of the writing).

This is too sad as we won't be able to have paintings/crafts from Balinese artists (we all know a lot of paintings, statue will show woman's skin). I have a picture with Ni Pollok's painting - no bra , I guess I can't keep it anymore. :cry:

Who knows, the traditional kebaya will be banned (it's tight and you can see through the lace :? If you see Waljinah - the Javanese traditional songs singer wear kebaya, I am afraid they will put her in jail for showing tiny part of her breast :roll:

Those nenek2 in the small villages of Java are topless, are they going to be fined and pay 100,000 milion rupiah? The jail will be full - need more money to build big ones - New project for the contractors hehehe.

 

[Guest]

Roy wrote:

Why on earth do you drag up an old quote of mine, and place it here in a context wherein it was never written?

It's not an old quote of yours it's something you wrote in a string about pedophilia some months ago. I have been looking through your old posts at your suggestion. As probably everyone knows, what you put on the net is not only visible world wide but also has an indefinite life span.

Yes I quoted you from a different string/topic but it is hardly out of context. I think the context is clear enough.

If you have something to say Allan, then say it. No more pussy footing around games. Either get it off your chest, or knock it off! Fair enough?

There's nothing to get off my chest. In this instance I am simply interested in your seemingly different treatment, of a point in this proposed law, between what you indicate is ostensibly driven by an Islamic agenda and the law as you write stands in Bali.

Allan! What is your agenda?

That presupposes that I have an agenda. If you are asking me why I am a participant in this forum I have already clearly stated that in another post.

Incidentally I had the dubious pleasure of reading you original reply. It wasn't exactly clear but was there a veiled threat in there regarding entry in to Bali?

 

[pooochie]

Hi Allan

I must comment on the following:

In this instance I am simply interested in your seemingly different treatment, of a point in this proposed law, between what you indicate is ostensibly driven by an Islamic agenda

As you will know from my past posts Allan I am not biased towards any religion.

But I must say it is very obvious that this law is driven from Islamic influences. If you think there is another influence then please tell me. I am open to any intellectual post that shows it is not driven from a Muslim agenda.

Please read my earlier post on this thread, here is an extract from an article I included:

"I thank God for the operation, because exposing one's body is not part of our culture, and especially not our religion," Asyari said.

Notice the “our religion” as a singular, this does not include the other religions in Indonesia.

Best Wishes

Ni Luh

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Shouldn't I be able to ask Allan why he dragged up an old post of mine

Yes you can. In a reasonable manner. And not the way of your original reply, with plenty of four letter words, and other threats.

Is this where we are heading Roy? Me playing police officer for you? Me taking shit for you? Me protecting you all the time?

Time after time, you fail to listen to my requests.

There comes an end to my patience.

Allmost 2000 posts or not.

 

[Guest]

Huh?

I certainly have no reason to think you are biased.

I have no idea if there are other influences behind this law. Given that Indonesia is predominantly Muslim it's probably a safe bet that it's the agenda of an Islamic faction. In fact I couldn't find, with my limited Indonesian language skills, where the age of consent is mentioned.

I have read you post. The person quoted seems to clearly be talking about Islam.

Ni Luh I wouldn't want to get in to discussion about the merits or otherwise of any or all religions. My interest lies in the dichotomous nature of a particular individual's reaction to this particular law. It's ascription to a particular religion is incidental.

Certainly no offence intended and my sincere apologies if any was taken.

 

[pooochie]

Hi Allan

Huh?

I certainly have no reason to think you are biased

I did not think you thought this. I just wanted to emphasise for all and to reiterate to you that I am not, because of the question I was asking is sensitive. I think we are in agreement here, so no need to further talk on this. I just hope this law does not get passed.

Kind Regards

Ni Luh

PS. Your wife does come first, so woo her :lol:

 

[Jimbo]

Bert

I have not seen the reply you mentioned as removed so I cannot comment. I must say though that from a year ago his rhetoric and style have changed considerably and in the main Roy has taken on board comments made by you and others (me). Sometimes its best to let people get things of their chest.

Alan and Roy

Sometimes there comes a point where two intelligent people have to agree to disagree and get on with life.

IMO you are at this stage, but if not quite yet, I am following this debate with interest

 

[smusdar]

hi

I personally do not blame those who thinks that way. It is quite obvious.
Maybe when they wrote this RUU, most of the MPR members forget about Bhineka Tunggal Ika, they forget that this country has more than 13K islands and thousands of culture (and not just moslem religion as the kiblat of the writing).

Dahlia comment on abovementioned sentences : maybe DPR not thought about that.. they just though about their increment salary or TOO many allowances..
BTW, Dahlia & Om Roy,

Let analyze this: the last election won by GOLKAR and PDI-P.. most of them is not MUSLIM..there is also PKS and PAN, but PAN now is open not only for muslim..
And FYI, yes in statistic in indo there is about 90 % moslem, but do they really muslim???????

just mention my father, he is not really muslim, he is KEJAWEN, a jawa spiritual thing... but he has to write it in any legal document , islam is his religion.. and there are many people like him, or muslim who not PRACTICE islam, or the worst, not know about Islam well..

How about some western who joined in SUBUD? they admit their self muslim too??

Oh just like me, i studied at private ROMe catholic from elementary - senior high school, i get well with the Father from Austria, nuns..
we go to comune worships..
maybe i know Bible (mathew, luke, john) better than
al quran when I was kid..or teenager..
i am muslim now not because i was born in muslim family, but after learn some religion, i believe this is my way..i started practice and learn it when i was 17 y.o..

SO, i dont believe this Bill is the idea of muslim..dont blame it. it just showed the HYPOCRITE of DPR !!! And DPR not equal of Muslim
I dont believe they have power to file that bill to the DPR..

and if there is fundamentalist in indo, they now become PUBLIC enemy of Indo govt, so how come they have power to suggest and file that bill to DPR ????????


Why then PLAYBOY indonesia got licence in Indo ??
(hey, BTW i got the soft copy of prelimenary edition of IndoPlayboy, wanna have one ?)

PFF, have a nice week end.. as bandung wait me for 2 days relaxing week end..

 

[yunita]

Re: RE: Indo enactment regarding Porn

Bli Gede, maybe indo govt just want to say "Get a room please" to them who kissing to hot

I have no idea why indo DPR drawn up that LAw, i respect the good faith of them ..to protect indo people from porns magazine, films, because the statisctic of rape increase every year...the worst is: many teenagers commit rape to kids under 10 y.o.

it is very easy for teenagers get porn VCD in jakarta....

FYI we still arguing about playboy plan to launch indo version of Playboy magazine..[/quote]

hi smusdar how r u there......
how bout blok m? is no people arround there now? or myb everybody going to sleep in the jail already, mygodness is really scary :shock:

 

[Guest]

Hi Ni Luh

PS. Your wife does come first, so woo her

Point taken.

The Shakespearian quote in your Bar Chat string, "We should be woo'd and were not made to woo", I believe implies that women were made to be pursued. If a man doesn't do the pursuing he hasn't served God's purpose.

Perhaps a poor attempt at irony on my part i.e. the bill could be construed as an attempt to make women appear less desirable when it's God's intention for them to be desirable.

I wasn't suggesting that I should be woo'd :wink:

 

[mimpimanis]

it is very easy for teenagers get porn VCD in jakarta....

Not just Jakarta.

We dont rent dvds anymore cause we have our own rental business but back when we did, the little kiosk we rented from had heaps of porn.

Also, whenever I go to internet cafes if I look at the history of what has been viewed recently, I often, if not usually see links to what are obviously porn sites.

 

[pooochie]

Hi All

Also, whenever I go to internet cafes if I look at the history of what has been viewed recently, I often, if not usually see links to what are obviously porn sites

This can easily be controlled by many means and at is simplest level law enforced on the use of blocking software would stop this to a very high extent. But should the Internet be controlled? This is an entirely different story. I don’t think so personally apart from the extreme ie. underage sex. If the sites are blocked should we not also block the sites that show people how to build bombs and promote terrorism?

it is very easy for teenagers get porn VCD in jakarta....

Not just Jakarta.

We dont rent dvds anymore cause we have our own rental business but back when we did, the little kiosk we rented from had heaps of porn.

With regard to porn DVDs and VCDs if the government cracked down on copyright laws and stopped the copying of these items then this would go very far to controlling the ability to get them some abundantly. I don’t see how women "covering up" helps this, enforced copyright law would. Is this law not really about something else? and there is a secret agenda?

I have no idea why indo DPR drawn up that LAw, i respect the good faith of them ..to protect indo people from porns magazine, films, because the statisctic of rape increase every year...the worst is: many teenagers commit rape to kids under 10 y.o.

A few on the forum say that the new law is going to allow the age of consent to be moved to 12. Can someone confirm this is true :?: A link would help. I have only read so much myself and talked to Indonesians over here and they know nothing about this. If this is true then how is a law that asks women to cover up, but allows children to have sex from the age of 12 going to protect against rape of children :?: Is it not really promoting child molesting by allowing, “by law” adults to have sex with children :?:

I would also like to know whether the men have to cover up :?: Men do get molested as well. I know it is not called rape in many countries, but it does happen and it is the same. Women are attracted to the male body and some men as well, so are we saying that the law is biased :?: Is this not then a man's law :?: and we women are losing our rights :?: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander".


I still think this is ludicrous and the law should be stopped in its tracks now before it goes too far. There is a saying “give them an inch and they will take a mile”. What comes next? On another forum someone even mentioned the word Talibanism around the corner, not my words.

I think anyone that promotes or agrees with any part of the law is backing the law in it’s full consent as the promoters of the law are looking for support and a little support goes a long way to help them with their agenda. Whereas total rejection will make them realise that they need to address the situation differently. If they want to control rape then make the laws for rape severe and educate the people into knowing the consequences. Putting someone in jail for years for wearing a miniskirt will not stop rape, but putting someone in Jail for life for rape will go along way towards curving the rapist’s appetite. Also anyone that commits rape obviously is mentally imbalanced so a simple solution to stop them doing it again is to take away their urge, this can easily be done by drugs or a simple medical procedure.

To finalise my post I would like to quote from ABC Radio Australia:

“Dr Ahmad Syaffi Maarif is the former head of the Muslim group Muhammadiyah which has 40 million members.

He says the country is in a state of moral decline.

SYAFFI MAARIF: Because you see Indonesia is a Muslim country, and most of the people practise rare religions, Islam Catholic Christianity, Buddhist and so on. They do not want to see the younger generation go into a moral decadence. this is the main reason why the law the regulation of anti-pornography should be implemented. Because we don't want to lead the nation into moral relativism. You know Indonesia is a trembling nation now. Corruption is here, is rampant here, mismanagement is with us. If the moral problem cannot be overcome, I think it would be very difficult for this nation to survive.”

Women's rights activist Smita Notosusanto:

NOTOSUSANTO: What they are proposing is actually two things: First is to regulate individual morality regulating on how people should wear. What kind of things that they should wear. And the defintiaion of the proper way of dressing up is that you don't arouse a desire on the part of the opposite sex. That's just a bizarre definition I think. How could you really be sure that even if you cover yourself up that you don't attract a sexual desire from the opposite sex.

And here is the link to the podcast:

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/m1190423.asx

Ni Luh

 

[Guest]

Ni Luh wrote:

mimpimanis wrote:
Also, whenever I go to internet cafes if I look at the history of what has been viewed recently, I often, if not usually see links to what are obviously porn sites


This can easily be controlled by many means and at is simplest level law enforced on the use of blocking software would stop this to a very high extent. But should the Internet be controlled? This is an entirely different story. I don’t think so personally apart from the extreme ie. underage sex. If the sites are blocked should we not also block the sites that show people how to build bombs and promote terrorism?

I don't think pornography on the internet can be easily controlled. In fact it is a significant driver of its success. Filtering is only effective in a very basic way and is easily subverted. In China they may be having more success with the "army" of government informants looking over peoples' shoulders. Even there I wouldn't say it's effective. Control of child pornography and other illegal activities that are covered by international law are a different matter. They are controlled by law enforcement at both ends of the service i.e. supply and consumption. This requires significant resources and is only effective where something is illegal under international law. That doesn't apply to most adult pornography that is for the consumption of adults.

The usefulness of copyright laws to curb distribution of physical media suchs as DVDs is also rapidly becoming moot. The availability of the material in cyberspace renders control of physical media somewhat pointless.

In any case I agree that it shouldn't be controlled.

A few on the forum say that the new law is going to allow the age of consent to be moved to 12. Can someone confirm this is true

This appears to be covered under the following sections:

(1) Paragraph (16). Anak-anak adalah seseorang yang belum berusia 12 (dua belas) tahun.

(25) Paragraph (3). Setiap orang dilarang melakukan hubungan seks dengan anak-anak.

See http://www.talkaboutculture.com/group/s ... 97175.html

As has been suggested about a similar law in Bali perhaps this is to cater for what is already culturally acceptable in many parts of Indonesia. It is not a rare occurrence for children age 13 to marry. It might be difficult for people with Western attitudes to accept but it is a cultural reality. To extrapolate that to a suggestion that the bill undermines the protection of children from rape is a "long bow".

I still think this is ludicrous and the law should be stopped in its tracks now before it goes too far. There is a saying “give them an inch and they will take a mile”.

I can understand the alarm the bill has raised. However that is the price of democracy. It will go through the same processes as any other bill. To somehow restrict legitimate groups within the legislature from putting bills forward would be unworkable.

“Dr Ahmad Syaffi Maarif is the former head of the Muslim group Muhammadiyah which has 40 million members.

I don't know who is behind this bill but I do know that Muhammadiyah is the second largest Islamic group in Indonesia and has a history of being moderate. 40 million still only represents 15% of the population.

Is this law not really about something else? and there is a secret agenda?

As I say, it's understandable the significant interest this bill has generated. However I see this rhetoric as a somewhat emotive reaction. I would be interested on what you mean by this.

Ni Luh thanks for the effort you put into your latest post. It got my own thought processes going.

There's a great quote from another famous American, Maxwell Smart: "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler" :lol:

 

[pooochie]

Hi Allan

Thanks for the link, I have not had a chance to read it yet as it is very long and I keep getting timeouts on it. I will get around to it hopefully tomorrow.

I don't think pornography on the internet can be easily controlled.

is only effective in a very basic way and is easily subverted

I only said it can be controlled to a “high extent”, and yes nearly everything can be hacked. My husband is an accomplished software developer and he reassures me that it can be done to a “high extent”. I asked him to post here and he is not willing, as this is part of his expertise and knowledge he will not release and as he said technical debates are not the subject matter of this forum. You are a software developer I am sure if you were in charge of Indonesia you could work out how to put these controls in place to control to a “high extent”.

The usefulness of copyright laws to curb distribution of physical media suchs as DVDs is also rapidly becoming moot. The availability of the material in cyberspace renders control of physical media somewhat pointless

People readily download because copyright law is not enforced. The downloaded material is what is being used to produce the DVDs, VCDs etc. The consumer still wants to play the material on their home DVD/VCD player. The age of the media computer in the living room is not here yet for the average person and certainly not in Indonesia for quite a while. So the copyright laws to curb distribution of physical media suchs as DVDs is not “moot” for some time.

I do not know about Australia but in Europe a lot of people are scared of readily downloading and are now educated to realise it is stealing and they know the consequences of being caught for theft are very bad. This is why over here original DVD sales are massive and yes CD is moving to mp3 or equivalent downloads, but the download industry is booming with legitimate downloads also.

]As has been suggested about a similar law in Bali perhaps this is to cater for what is already culturally acceptable in many parts of Indonesia. It is not a rare occurrence for children age 13 to marry. It might be difficult for people with Western attitudes to accept but it is a cultural reality.

Laws are supposed to come out to improve society not to encourage society to stay or move back in time. Even places such as parts of the US used to accept marriages of 13-year-old girls, example Jerry Lee Lewis. Promotion and acceptance of child marriages is not good. Yes for many traditional people who don’t know any different it is totally acceptable. In your ancestor’s days this would have been acceptable as well, it does not mean that your government should allow it. When was it about 1885 that the age was increased in Australia from 12 to 16? It may still be a cultural reality within certain parts of Indonesia and certain groups of people but this forum is about being able to express your own view and my view is that it is wrong to introduce a law to enhance this practice. I wonder whether what’s left of the traditional aborigines do anything similar or whether they did at all, I don’t know. I would imagine you are very interested from the Balinese point of view. Maybe it is best for it to naturally fade out as a practice, which is happening very rapidly, or maybe education is the key.

To extrapolate that to a suggestion that the bill undermines the protection of children from rape is a "long bow".

I am very surprised you said this :? . Okay I will not use the word “rape”. I feel that a child of this age is too young to make their own decisions regarding whether they should consent to having sex and may be influenced by an older adult As we all know young children are very impressionable and can be easily controlled by an adult. So yes the child may say “yes” and then it is not rape but two consenting “people”, not adults, agreeing to have sex together. I do not agree with this. Do you not agree that lowering the age to 12 is allowing, by law, a possible increase in child sex acts :?:

Is this law not really about something else? and there is a secret agenda?

As I say, it's understandable the significant interest this bill has generated. However I see this rhetoric as a somewhat emotive reaction. I would be interested on what you mean by this

I would not say I am being rhetoric. Indonesia is a country consisting of many religions, cultures, languages etc and I know you are already aware of this and yes laws are brought in by the diplomatic approach. However for Indonesia to succeed it needs to recognise this and not put controls such as this law into affect when there are clearly a majority within certain areas, such as Bali, of the country that are against it. If it is to be passed then it should only be put into affect where the local governments think it is appropriate. So if the local Balinese government thinks it is inappropriate then it should not have to enforce the new law and have its own overriding law. This will help protect religion and culture throughout Indonesia. The secret agenda I mention could be to introduce “through incremental change” the acceptance of a “one culture” society, which is not what Indonesia, is about.

Maxwell Smart: "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

That’s the dilemma they are the rulers and they want to force upon all the people throughout all the religions/cultures and islands their own morals, and the penalty for not conforming is very severe.

Parts of Bali have been described as being like Night and Day. I can see that it may become very dark throughout Bali.

Kind Regards

Ni Luh

 

[Guest]

Hi Ni Luh

I want to first point out that I personally wouldn't vote for the bill. It would be unworkable and yes perhaps a step backwards as well. A law must also be enforceable to have any meaning. On that point it will definitely fail. I don't believe Indonesia will become "Talibanised".

Your use of the term "high extent" I took to mean "large degree". If you mean the opposite I'm somewhat lost with your argument. You mention your husband is reluctant to discuss specifics in this area but if he has the time I would be interested in his thoughts. Yes I am a software developer by trade. You give me too much credit though. Even I cannot achieve the impossible. 8)

Yes the distribution mechanism for pornography is largely via pirated physical media at present. Looking forward though, if this bill is to have any real longevity, it should recognise that it won't be long (in historical terms) before broadband internet is a truly global and pervasive phenomenon. I can almost guarantee that cost won't be a factor as companies will simply set their prices to suit the local market. This is especially easy with something like software based services because material and distribution costs are insignificant compared to the copyright value. Even the cost in the west has gone down perhaps a thousand fold in four or five years.

As for child marriage I cannot get my mind around it. It is something so alien for me. Yet cultural practices do need to be catered for. They cannot be successfully legislated out of existence when they are widespread. At least not without large social upheaval. To me that smacks of colonialism. To answer your question about Aboriginal tribal law, it is recognised to some degree under Australian law and some autonomy is allowed. I understand a lower age of consent is allowed but the actual age is not specifically legislated. I may well be wrong on that point. Perhaps another reader could clarify.

I said "perhaps" catering for current cultural practices is the reason behing those section of the bill. It's pure speculation on my part as much as to provide some balance to the argument as anything else. Yes I agree laws should be progressive and this bill on the face of it appears too simplistic in it's approach. I understand that the age of consent is covered under other statutes as well. A thorough understanding of those statutes is required before the current bill can be taken in context. For example, does the current age of consent make those younger than 18 getting married criminals?

I say you are being rhetorical because you ask two questions that seem to imply there is something sinister going on. As far as Bali having greater autonomy, I would be all for it. Obviously though that's a highly sensitive political issue.

Best regards

Allan

 

[Guest]

Ni Luh wrote:

I only said it can be controlled to a “high extent”, and yes nearly everything can be hacked

Yes got it now. On this point I would still say it is technically and in practice impossible to do what you're suggesting.

 

[JabberWokker]

Hi Allan

Ni Luh said “High Extent” which is not 100%. But I could and know how to put into place systems, controls, and develop software to block at least 95% upwards. As far as what she was talking about in context was with Internet Café’s. Here this could be increased even further. Even an “off the shelf” web filtering program would stop the users surfing on the majority of sex sites. P2P can be blocked simply as well.

I will not get into the technical side of advancing on the above and I am not willing to share the methods etc., there are many people who already know how but don’t want the Internet controlled in any way. I am not sure whether I would ever develop a system that would allow people to either.

It’s not the Internet you control but the inputs and outputs. What people see and can do on their computer is the key. There can always be pirate ISPs via Sat as with old pirate radio stations that could not be stopped. But the everyday consumer, office worker etc would never have access to these.

You may think too much from the “software developer” role and think that the consumer is like you. Yes the average person is much more computer literate than they used to be, but to get around systems take a great deal of knowledge.

I hope you now agree that in essence to a “high extent” it can be controlled, otherwise we will go to the “agree to disagree” platform.

 

[Guest]

JabberWokker wrote:

It’s not the Internet you control but the inputs and outputs. What people see and can do on their computer is the key. There can always be pirate ISPs via Sat as with old pirate radio stations that could not be stopped. But the everyday consumer, office worker etc would never have access to these.

I restate my main point: the "inputs", i.e. adult pornographic sites, are not illegal under international law. There are thousands if not tens of thousands of legal sites. No, I don't believe they can blocked in any effective way. The average consumer does not necessarily have to be computer literate. For every technical method to control access there is or soon would be an effective workaround available to a company thats wants its product delivered. Not to mention that sites can appear in seconds. Who or what is going to be able to keep tabs on them all? In Thats why internet gambling (casinos) hasn't been blocked in Australia even though it isn't legal here. A perfect example of an ineffective law. Prohibition of this type (where the demand is huge and widespread) in my mind just doesn't work. Is there an example that you know of, in a democratic country, that has worked?

In the case of internet cafes in Indonesia I think the profit motive will take precedence over any fear of legal sanctions. Prostitution is a case in point.

I am not saying that I think Ni Luh or you are flat out wrong. I have no reason not to accept the assertion that you are an expert on internet matters. In the context of this bill I don't believe pornography will be largely eradicated in Indonesia. I don't agree it can be controlled as you state.

I do agree we are at the "agree to disagree" stage. :wink:

Regards

Allan

 

[JabberWokker]

Hi Allan,

Just to clarify I was never talking about the law but talking from a systems perspective, law has nothing to do with this from a programming ability point of view. I was only defending that the “high extent” of porn content can be blocked. Yes sites can popup in seconds but they need their users to know where to go and when they know so will the blocking software.

Let’s compare this to virus software. It’s evolving and multiplying everyday, but we don’t say that we can’t protect our PCs to a “high extent” as we can.

When I am in Bali bring your laptop and I will set it up as a simple test to block at least 95 out of a 100 sex sites you try to access. Then you will see, if I can’t then the night is on me, otherwise your paying

Good we “agree to disagree”. This might start to be a habit on the forum.

It’s all logical in the end and down to IP routing, data streams etc.

Don’t forget there are only 10 types of people that understand binary, those that do and those that don’t.

We need to get back to subject otherwise I will be in trouble with Herman :lol:

 

[Guest]

When I am in Bali bring your laptop and I will set it up as a simple test to block at least 95 out of a 100 sex sites you try to access. Then you will see, if I can’t then the night is on me, otherwise your paying

Hmmm.. I don't think I know the addresses of 100 sex sites. Honest.

In any case I concede that your test would be successful. Let's skip it and I'll be happy to shout you. :wink:

I'll bring along my zero relative. That'll make three of us.