Indo enactment regarding Porn

[Roy]

Colin writes:

Seems to me this is already a done deal - this dreadful piece of work WILL be passed, mark my words!

Care to take up a friendly wager on that? Some sort of porno legislation will almost certainly come into play, at some time in the near future, but nothing like the current draft.

 

[Jimbo]

I hope you are right Roy.

Fundimentalism in Islam will destroy Indonesia as a united country. My hope is that the principles of Pancasila will remain.

 

[ColinF]

You took the words right out of my mouth, Jimbo.

And I agree 100% with the rest of your post. Whoever was the driving force behind the creation of the Pancasila philosophy (Pak Hatta?) certainly knew his people! Alas, it crumbles further almost daily.
What's your opinion on that, Smusdar?
Colin.

 

[Thorsten]

Sorry Colin,

I’m also able to read (even The Jakarta Post) and have monitored the articles the last weeks (due Playboy and pornography bill).
So I would suggest, when you already referring an article from which source ever, you should at least display the content of this article and then add your personal (subjective) comment!

Seems to me this is already a done deal - this dreadful piece of work WILL be passed, mark my words!

Have you read the article to the end Colin or did you stop where it fits your own doctrine?

So in case you missed the last part of this article here it is, fresh from The Jakarta Post!

Meanwhile, legislator Agung Sasongko of the Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P) said that the bill will not be passed if objections are strong, particularly from diverse ethnic groups in the country.

"It has to be acceptable to the majority of Indonesians, who have diverse religious, ethnic and cultural backgrounds. If resistance is so strong to the point that the law would cause more harm than good, we may well not pass the law," he said.

Pornography, he said, is a very subjective matter, and involves people's personal lives in which the state cannot interfere.

"If the law leads to disintegration, then why pass it."

It looks to me – they are not all a bunch of idiot there in Jakarta ?!

Best regards
Thorsten

 

[smusdar]

hi Oom colin ( suddenly i have too many om now..do you mind I call you om? but sorry if you mind)

first I want to comment Jimbo message, a lil bit out of topic, but merely want to make this clear

Fundimentalism in Islam will destroy Indonesia as a united country. My hope is that the principles of Pancasila will remain

I am a muslim, and i dont know what is fundamentalism or not..as long as I try to be a good one..respect other person..

please try to visit this site (in flash file .swf):

"Too many people claim to be moslem but they fail to practice Islam"
"Islam teaches peace, but terrorism it doesn't (teach)"

Watch, listen, and think about it:
http://www.kavalec.com/thisisislam.swf
this site describe about the exact islam and terorist who named their selves


It is not too dramatic saying Fundimentalism in Islam will destroy Indonesia as a united country nope, pancasila still being up hold by indo govt.

 

[truth sayer]

Re: RE: Indo enactment regarding Porn

Roy wrote:"...getting the point...that bikinis and speedos could become illegal in Bali."( have not figured out the "paste a quote" thingy yet, -get around to it sometime...).
-anyway... is this the real point?
I am not a carpenter,nor do I know the Son of one closely.
Yet, I feel I have "hit the nail on it's head", to quote my brother again.
It is painful to me to discover (I have been naive) that I am not the only one in fear of speaking my mind in public.
To me the POINT is the direction the human race seems to be swiftly heading...
-sugested reading:
Vishnu Purana #29

Made, I am curious how to find the Purana that you have mentioned, I am familar with some of the Visnu Purana, but wish to read what you have mentioned. I am in agreement, that to truly speak ones mind is a potentially dangerous thing. I think I am in agreement with you about the direction of the human race and the connection to the Visnu Purana is confirming what I think you want to say, but cannot.

I will go ahead and be bold, that when any culture begins to decline in its moral values, there arises much unwanted progeny, creating lots of unwanted children and single mothers unable to support them, What is needed is education so that when the moral structure is all but gone, educated (expecially women) can learn to prevent themselves from becoming victims of unscrupulous men, the Vedas have mentioned that the sign of a declining civilization, is when the woman and children become unprotected due to the exploitation of women's bodies. Not that they have to be covered from head to toe, but certain standerds of dress become necessary, in order to keep the men from becoming predators. After all, how do we really differ from animals if everyone is out there running nearly naked and literally allowed to have not rules of conduct.

My former husband, Wayan Murna told us many stories thruout the years, of the drunken tourists losing their clothes at night when he was guarding the beach, or people openly having sex on the beach. What difference is that between a dog or a cat having sex right in the street? If the morals decline to such low levels, humans become no better than animals, and society becomes chaotic.

 

[ColinF]

Yes Thorsten, of course I read it all to the end!! But however, thank you for the educational input on how to post in a forum, much appreciated.
Had you actually lived here long enough you would have realized that the part you jumped on was little more than 'window dressing' as Indonesians in general do not object strongly to anything, they fatalistically accept. The legislator knows this very well, hence his confident assurance that "..if resistance is so strong to the point that the law would do more harm than good, we may well not pass the law". He KNOWS there will not be a big surge of resistance outside of the mentioned regencies, it was simply a pacifier and that's why I did not bother to include it. The proposal will be passed.
I do admit, though, I really, really hope to be proven wrong!

There...you really shouldn't have too much dificulty in finding something silly to throw back at me amongst that, should you?

Colin.

 

[made marko]

ColinF,
That is a pretty stong statement, and rather offensive, I think.
I consider myself a "fundimentalist" when it comes to ALL religion.
Maybe that is why I find myself leaving kryptic posts regarding the Veda's.
Although I became Hindu at a very young age, all of my formal education was Christian.
I believe the most beautiful form of Christianity to be that of the Eastern Orthodox sect, the most 'fundimental' living form of Christianity.
I recall being rather upset at the reforms of VaticanII as a child, for I loved to hear the Priests chant in a language strange to me, the heady scent of incense, the ringing of bells(sound familiar, anyone?). -All gone now from most Christian services.
There is no Hindu temple here.
I have constructed 'Apit Lawang' on my property for offerings, but this is all I have.
So you will often find me in the lovely Mosque here in town, or the Hebrew temple, or one of the many beautiful Christian churches we have.
That is a beautiful website, Sari.
We are all members of the same family, even if we go by different names.

 

[drbruce]

Colin,

With all due respect, you don't seem to pay much attention to actual life in Indonesia when you make a blanket statement like "Indonesians in general do not object strongly to anything, they fatalistically accept."

Just a few of the more public examples:



1996: Papua: the Dani. Amungme, and Moni were quite vocal about objecting to the policies of Freeport and the government.

1999: Bali: When Megawati was outmanuvered by Gus Dur, Amien Rais, and Golkar, there was plenty of objecting. Singaraja was shut down for a few days while government offices were burned to the ground.

Of course, who can forget the last months of the Suharto period?

As to the porn law, there are plenty of voices being raised by Hindus, Muslims and Christians. You might need to get a wider network so that you are aware of these activities.

Then there are many local demos that obviously don't reach much of the bule network, but can be seen if you watch Indonesian news, read Indonesian papers, or monitor Indonesian websites and blogs.

 

[made marko]

I would also like to add that the Balinese and the Govenment have been able to come to terms in time of need.
I point to the 1950's when the concept of Tuhan Yang Maha Esa( =Ida Sang Hyang Widi Wasa), 'the one and supreme God' was taken up out of politcal neccesity, lest Balinese Hinduism be classified a 'non-religion' by the RI.
This led to the semi-govermental organisation "Parisada Hindu Dharma Bali". Which may have helped the acceptance and possible spread of Hinduism in modernist Islam Java.

 

[swt]

Smusdar (Hope I have spelt that correctly Thank you for responding to my concerns about what happened regarding my post. I would love to meet with you if our paths were ever fortunate to cross

I won't pretend to understand all that is happening regarding this proposed law but I am concerned by the fact that a group of people either honestly feel that this kind of legislation will make a difference and to some degree address their concerns or it is being promoted as this but perhaps underlying it all is another push by a 'fundamentalist group' to gain power and control.

Either way there certainly needs to be some 'enlightenment' regarding the espoused issue of concern underpinning this proposed legislation. What saddens me greatly is that we continue to make the same mistakes over and over, Governments continually pass legislation that supposedly will deal with issues of concern and they are often just a 'bandaid' effect and never truly get to the core of the matter.

There are many people in Indonesia and certainly those in Bali that are concerned about the supposed 'western' influence particularly on the young, I would be concerned also. I do not have the answers however one thing I do truly believe in is coming together and discussing issues of concern in a civil and non judgemental manner (if at all possible).

I wonder what is truly the driving force for this legislation?

swt..x

 

[smusdar]

hey swt
For a cute gal like you, I let you call me sari if smusdar will make slip on your western tounge just kidding

yeah, we can meet maybe in bali with our friends..or double dates maybe, who knows

I dont think so that idea to make the Law comes from what you said fundameltalist ..

Most of islam people in indo is liberal islam..even some of them just write that on ID card, cause we have to choose and type our religion in ID card but never practice in real life

And in DPR their amount not really big so have power to propose the idea of new law of anti pornography in DPR..

My father is not a real muslim, to be frank he is kejawen but he has to write a religion on his ID card, so he choose islam among other 5 big religions in indonesia..

I still have no idea the way of thinking of indo govt, they really dont have principle in facing the issue of morality.. the effect of western cultures in indo..Morality is a matter of education in family..
it is hard to make a general regulation in a multicultural country like indonesia..especially the effect of globalization when a person can do anything with web cam?

If they do not agree with playboy indo version (PI) , why PI has license to establish their business in indo?

I hope my govt getting wiser handling this issue
GTG now..

 

[truth sayer]

Samusdar said,

morality is a matter of education in family

Very very true, this is where a person will learn or not. unfortunetly, morals differ greatly from the Western countries and the Eastern. One is too loose, and the other a bit too strict.

Indonesian goverment has gone too long letting morals (especially in Bali)go out of control, and is too ridiculous to think that they can now go and change things around.

Traditional values need to be taught again, education is the answer, not enforcing some artificial way to cover up the fact that morality is gone in many parts of Bali due to the influence of the Westerners.

 

[Tommy]

Very very true, this is where a person will learn or not. unfortunetly, morals differ greatly from the Western countries and the Eastern. One is too loose, and the other a bit too strict.

I'd like to add that morality also differ greatly "within the east". Compare views on hindu-dominated morality in Bali to the muslim-dominated java is in many cases like night and day.

Indonesian goverment has gone too long letting morals (especially in Bali)go out of control, and is too ridiculous to think that they can now go and change things around.

I didn't know it was the Goverments business to setup morals for the population? If so, as the government is muslim-dominated.. how do you think those moral standards will look to christians, buddhists and hindus?

the fact that morality is gone in many parts of Bali due to the influence of the Westerners.

Exsqueeze me? Please come back to Bali and i'll introduce you to all those kuta-kids who've "lost" their morality and faith in hindu-dharma and i'm sure you'll be quite surpriced.

 

[Ratih]

I received an e-mail from my friend in Batam. She said that the women there
have been prohibited to wear anything that falls under "sexy clothing" category. She said that the women caught wearing such outfits were "warned" by the police. It sounds so ridicoulus that the government there assigns a special force to handle such matter.


Ratih

 

[Guest]

I didn't know it was the Goverments business to setup morals for the population?

I was probably about your age (30 or so) when I was foolish enough to also ask someone the same question. The answer: "what are laws if not morals with government enforced sanctions to back them up?".

I remember going to Singapore in the 70's and having to get my hair cut beforehand. At that time there was a law against looking like a hippie. I guess they thought hippies were immoral. :shock:

 

[pooochie]

Hi All

I think the new law is very worrying and has the potential to devastate Bali :cry:

According to him, the Bali regency has already sent a “letter of rejection” to the MPR in Jakarta regarding this proposed law. Even if this absurd law was passed, in his view, it would never pass the constitutional scrutiny that would be required to enact this law.

Oom Roy I do hope you are right, at the minimum extent that it does not affect Bali. If this comes into place in Bali the tourism, in my view, will never come back and Bali is in for a bleak future. I can’t see many people paying good money to travel to Bali when their wives, female children cannot enjoy the sun as they can in the majority of other places. To me “no bikinis” means “no tourists” in general, if taken to the extent of this proposed law.

I have read many stories of people who currently live in Indonesia or were planning to retire in Indonesia now contemplating other countries due to this law if it is passed. One person brought up Iran and said that used to be a good country and very relaxed many years ago, but then laws were introduced that totally changed the country.

I must post the following article:

EXTRACT TAKEN FROM JAKARTAPOST.COM

Sexy clothes a no-no in Batam

National News - February 27, 2006

Fadli, The Jakarta Post, Batam

Police in Batam, Riau Islands province, began trawling the city's malls Thursday looking for women wearing revealing clothes.

However, police insist they are not out to punish the women, but to protect them from sex-related crimes.

Policewomen deployed as part of the campaign have stopped women in at least five shopping centers in the city and warned them against dressing provocatively.

Adj. Comr. Dewantoro of the Batam Police said Saturday the operation was launched as a way to deal with a rise in crimes against women.

"This is part of our efforts to reduce crimes against women. We hope to continue the operation, though it is now being evaluated following protests," said Dewantoro, declining to provide statistics on the number or types of crimes against women in the city.

However, some residents have complained about the operation, which they say was introduced without first informing the public, has no legal basis and is nothing more than an attempt by the police to prepare the people of Batam for life under the new pornography law currently being debated by the House of Representatives.

Dewantoro acknowledged the police operation was launched at the same time the House was deliberating the pornography bill, but said the timing was coincidence.

"We are not only warning women for wearing sexy outfits, but we also are calling on stores to stop selling such outfits," Dewantoro said.
Santi, a shop attendant at Mega Mall Center in Batam, said the operation had upset both female shoppers and the people who work in the shops.

"We don't know which outfits are sexy and which aren't. My boss is afraid to sell women's clothes, fearing it might be against the law," she said.
One female shopper said there was nothing wrong with women wearing sexy clothes, which she said were fashionable. "Besides, the weather in Batam is very hot. If a top that is open in the back is considered pornographic, what clothes can we wear?"

The head of the Batam office of the Indonesian Tour Guides Association, Edy Surbakti, is concerned the police operation could harm tourism to the city.

"Lots of Koreans visit Batam every day. You see how they dress. If they're warned by the police, they might not come back to Batam. Hopefully, this is only a trial operation," he said.

However, the operation has won the backing of some residents, including the chairman of the Batam branch of the Indonesian Ulema Council, Asyari Abbas.

"I thank God for the operation, because exposing one's body is not part of our culture, and especially not our religion," Asyari said.

Ni Luh

 

[Lee]

What I would like to know is how can playing sport in a non designated area be considered pornographic unless it is played in the nude?

The thought of the possibility of ending up in jail for up to 10 years (murderers can get less) for exposing your, shock horror, thigh at the beach is ludicrous. Are men who wear budgie smugglers (speedos) at risk too? :shock:

The police are going to have a field day down on the beach if this law comes in, the jails are going to get mighty overcrowded.

Although, and this is a personal opinion I do think that some tourists lack a bit of respect in what they wear in certain areas, for example I once saw a group of young women in a major department store in the centre of Denpasar wearing only their bikini tops with shorts, or going into non touristy areas (traditional villages) wearing only miniscule shorts (and I mean short). Wearing of G-Strings (or anal floss) swimwear, I don’t think has a place anywhere in the world, no matter how good your butt is.

But by no means should it be a criminal offence to do so.

 

[Roy]

Lee! Where have you been? Nice to have you back!

This Batam development that Ni Luh speaks of is a frightening new development. But, I am still convinced, or at least very doubtful that this law (in its present form) will ever pass. Lee, you and Colin have access to, and read the Bali Post. Anyone reading that paper knows that Bali has totally rejected this draft from of proposed legislation. Without coming out and saying it, the Balinese also know exactly what’s behind it. This influence is simply not going to “cut it” here in Bali...regardless of how complacent some misguided folks seem to think the Balinese are.

The Batam move is seen here in Bali as an attempt to show something along the lines of, “see, it can work in this popular tourist area”...and inferred in that is, “so why can’t it work in Bali?”

Lee, your comments about improper dress, usually just out of just plain and honest ignorance of local customs, is something I have witnessed up here in Ubud from time to time as well. I see that more as simply “par for the course.” Most tourists I’ve hosted or entertained are very concerned about what to wear that is appropriate, and not offensive.

That being said, you are spot on about thongs and bikini tops being worn in a department store. Under the new law, if they were fat and ugly, they would receive a very stiff sentence!

 

[Lee]

Thanks for the welcome back Roy.

I haven’t been anywhere, just economising (cutting back on Internet usage).

Without coming out and saying it, the Balinese also know exactly what’s behind it. This influence is simply not going to “cut it” here in Bali...regardless of how complacent some misguided folks seem to think the Balinese are.

No I can’t see the Balinese just sitting back and letting it happen without a fight.

That being said, you are spot on about thongs and bikini tops being worn in a department store. Under the new law, if they were fat and ugly, they would receive a very stiff sentence!

Probably not stiff enough