Buy property in Indonesia mixed couple

[Bert Vierstra]

I “hear” you but that comment leaves out any possibility for an agreement to be made post marriage, without a pre-nup, and that is just not true. What is true, as explained to me, is that any Hak Milik land acquisition made by an Indonesian woman married to a foreigner post marriage must include the essential aspects of a pre-nup, meaning the waiver of all land ownership rights by the foreign husband, (essentially meaning that the man follows the woman), to which the bond of marriage applies. Even if a pre-nup exists, my attorney maintains, (and it sounds reasonable to me), that those essential aspects inherent in a pre-nup be re-stated (contractually) and made a part of the Hak Milik land certificates that follows a marriage.

Its the first time I heard about a "valid" post marriage agreement, and I would like to know more..... It sounds dodgy, legally wise.

In case of a prenup, records have to be kept regarding ownership, if not, property is assumed to be owned by both anyway.... (Dewi and I have a prenup)

I never heard about this "re-stating" in a Hak Milik certificate, and I have seen a few.... It sounds highly illogical.....

Maybe your lawyer means the actual sales contract.....

 

[Bert Vierstra]

As for the notary only, versus the “hire an attorney” issue, I can only leave that issue, which I have already beaten to death, with a question. That would be, why is it that the vast majority of Australians who enter into ANY land contract in Bali use the very well known, and highly regarded attorney, Peter Johnson?

Because he speaks the lingo. And as far as I know, he has no actual legal power, but uses Indo lawyers / notaries to execute things. There are more foreigners working like that....

 

[Bert Vierstra]

We may well be saying the same thing, and hung up on semantics, but the idea that an Indonesian woman, who has married a foreigner without a pre-nuptial agreement has waived all her future rights, including land ownership, and without any remedy to address those issues inherent in a pre-nuptial agreement “down the road” (post marriage) is preposterous.

That is one of the reasons why I have made a prenup. So Dewi can inherit. (Not that it ever will happen, because the boys get all. One of the not so nice "Adat" things)

 

[Roy]

Gee Bert, you are being unusually verbose. I’m far more used to one, or two lines at best responses or input from you. Now I have three posts to respond to! Have mercy Bert! :cry:

It’s late, and I’m tired, so maybe tomorrow I’ll be back. In the mean time, you could call a lawyer! Malam

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Why? I have a good notary

(and Dewi will be one too!)

 

[froggy]

Balilife, I have meet some very,very educated villagers that live next to Roy, taught here in the finest U.S schools,,,, One of the head of Roy's village is a young man and I enjoyed speaking with him at gamalong practise,, kinda strange alot of balanise get an expensive western education then move back to the village, but its fact..... Usually the people that have the $800 degrees are westerners trying to teach English abroad.... Or Asians trying to pass off as Doctors in the U.S,,, not lawyers in Bali!!!!!! :shock:

 

[Roy]

Its the first time I heard about a "valid" post marriage agreement, and I would like to know more..... It sounds dodgy, legally wise.

In case of a prenup, records have to be kept regarding ownership, if not, property is assumed to be owned by both anyway.... (Dewi and I have a prenup)

I never heard about this "re-stating" in a Hak Milik certificate, and I have seen a few.... It sounds highly illogical.....

Maybe your lawyer means the actual sales contract.....

I don’t know how much more I can tell you Bert beyond what I’ve already stated. This is all rather still fresh in my mind as we just went through this whole process in reverse with the nominee “sale” of our old house to a couple from California. The husband is a professional real estate agent in California which is about the toughest and most complicated state to buy and sell real estate. He was very satisfied with the contracts that Pak Indra prepared. Yes, I did indeed mean restated in the Hak Milik by way of the actual sales contract.

“Because he speaks the lingo. And as far as I know, he has no actual legal power, but uses Indo lawyers / notaries to execute things. There are more foreigners working like that....”

I believe you are right in that Peter himself cannot argue cases in court, but he can act as an advisor. I know you feel comfortable not using a lawyer because you are a professional in the real estate business. For others, it seems perfectly logical to me when making such a large and significant expenditure to engage a lawyer with a great deal of experience in these matters as they relate to foreigners. SanurGirl is right, notaris spend most of their time only on land related matters, but how many of them are “on the ball” when it comes to such matters involving a mixed marriage couple?

That is one of the reasons why I have made a prenup. So Dewi can inherit. (Not that it ever will happen, because the boys get all. One of the not so nice "Adat" things)

I don’t understand. What do you mean when you say, “because the boys get all...one of the not so nice “Adat” things?” Speaking of Dewi, when will she be finishing up her studies?

Froggy, you are referring to Wayan Dedik who you may or may not know is currently in Chicago with his very pregnant wife working on his doctorate in ethnomusicology. He hopes his “you know whats” thaw out in time for their quick trip back to Bali in July for the 3 month ceremony of their yet to be born (April due date) baby. You might enjoy this photo taken at their wedding:

 

[SanurGirl]

Its the first time I heard about a "valid" post marriage agreement, and I would like to know more..... It sounds dodgy, legally wise.

This is a classic case of a clever lawyer (Or a lawyer who thinks he is clever?) trying to find a away around the law. As any good lawyer will tell you, a contract is subservient to a higher statute, which includes both PP and UU.
I am even aware of several couples who have actually gone through a divorce to enter into a pre-nuptial agreement then re-married, just to secure the Hak Milik land tenure.
I am also aware of several friends who have received very poor legal counsel in Bali and have subsequently suffered as a result.

 

[Jimbo]

I think I will just rent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

 

[Guest]

The sky's falling in! The sky's falling in!

As usual SanurGirl (or whatever you name is) you are completely full of it.

During the conveyancing of land, one document which SHOULD be required by the Notary is the Kartu Keluarga (KK). This would establish that the spouse is a foreigner and any honest notary would not process any such transaction. The raeson being, implicit in the above, the land would become common property within the marriage; but a foreigner cannot own land.
In circumstances (Inheritence for instance) where a foreigner, against the specific provisions set forthe in indonesian law, becomes the beneficiary of land and/or property, then the foreigner is provided with a period of 12 months to sell the land.

What a load of complete nonsense. Did your wife the notary come up with that? For starters marriages performed outside Indonesia will not affect the Kartu Keluarga. Secondly the property can be in the Indonesian spouse's name. Just because property bought after a marriage is called "joint property" doesn't mean there is "joint ownership". The very existence of the 12 month grace period proves that. You make the very simple mistake of confusing beneficial ownership and legal ownership.

IMO the whole concept of the requirement for a prenuptial agreement is an invention of the legal profession and has no basis in law. If it did have any legal basis then any Indonesian that owned land would be prevented from marrying a foreigner. Think about. It's completely ridiculous.

BTW SanurGirl where is the evidence of the numerous "friends" that have been had these legal difficulties? Don't give me this bullshit about "oh you're in Melbourne you shouldn't give people advice". You have been asked many times and you have yet to cite ANY particular example. Come up with some concrete evidence to back up your assertions. You won't because you can't.

Where is that villa you donated? Which banjar is it?

Merchant banker - my arse.

 

[SanurGirl]

Alan's rantings are as usual incorrect and largely off topic. One would have assumed an ex-Moderator would know better?
The only issue of relevance regarding the KK, although this was beyond the relevance and therefore scope of my research, is I suspect correct. An Indonesian woman married overseas to a foreigner and never registered the marriage in Indonesia and never wishes to live in Indonesia could indeed get round the problem. But then what would be the point? It is also of no relevance to the question raised by the original poster.
This will be my last post as I'm about to leave for the airport. But then I've already contributed all I know.

 

[Guest]

No it's you as usual that misses the point.

Who is saying that the spouse in question must be the female? Only you.

Who is saying that the spouse doesn't wish to live in Indonesia? Only you.

What has being an ex-moderator got to do with the facts? Nothing.

Does my summation of the situation directly answer the original poster's question? Yes.

What has a being an ex-moderator got to with owning property? Nothing.

Why don't you tell us who you really are and stop jerking us around. What's the real problem? Your hotel business not doing so well? Or maybe spreading FUD is good for your wife's notary business.

 

[Jimbo]

I can think of many problems to come. I "own" property in Indonesia but it is in my brother in laws name because my wife now has a British passport. Later when I have retired it is possible that she will change back to an Indonesian citizen and then take on the Hak Milik from her brother.

Our marriage IS registered in Indonesia. Oh what a wicked web is woven. It will be interesting to see how our personal circumstances are affected by the "law". :twisted:

 

[Roy]

As a follow up to Allan’s two posts on this topic, not that they need a follow up, :lol: I hope the original poster, Alex (adityawarman) now feels more comfortable with the accurate information that has been provided without any “hidden agenda” or unintentional inaccuracies. Having now read the prior posts by SanurGirl, from last Fall, all of which relate to real estate and mentioning investment banking out of Hong Kong, I have little doubt about Allan’s suspicions. I sincerely hope that any prior suggestions made by SanurGirl that I have an axe to grind, or that my attorney is somehow inept, have been laid to rest.

If there is any lesson to be learned in this string, in my view it is that whenever in doubt, or unsure about real estate matters in Indonesia, it is essential to engage a good attorney. To that I would also add that in Bali specifically, it is highly suggested to become involved in as best a manner as you can with the village in which your property is located. It is only human nature to be suspicious of “outsiders” and those who chose to stay isolated, out of touch, and overly private will remain under suspicion and will never earn the respect and trust that makes life in a village so much more enjoyable and secure.

Speaking of outsiders within a village, and the suspicions raised therein, IMHO, ironically that applies here on this forum as well. In my view, formed over five years of mostly regular participation on this forum, it has never been that difficult to sort out the credible contributors.

 

[BaliLife]

Roy,

Nothing thus far posted on this thread by others has given your arguments any more credibility. As for your PM, I don't know what quality / quantity of pills you're taking, but it's obviously not working - you're still a six-pack short of a carton. Like I said... Yada, yada, yada... Village HACK, and some more yada..

ct

 

[Roy]

If you took that ski mask off and showed us more than a pair of eyes, you might actually find that in time, you could earn some credibility here.

Nothing thus far posted on this thread by others has given your arguments any more credibility.

Ah...did you miss Allan's two posts?

As for PM’s it was you who first sent me a PM, so, what did you expect...a garland of flowers sent on a cart pulled by white bulls?

And by the way, since you are experimenting with sayings, it goes this way...“a six pack short of a case.” :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

IMHO, you are already 47 bottles short!

 

[BaliLife]

sok om - or just plain dh (running out of ways to address you),

1. as a matter of fact 'case' is american, and seeing as i'm not, i use the term 'carton' as does every other australian.. i guess perhaps you don't know every fact on earth..

2. those are not my eyes..

yes i saw allan's posting's, and like i said nothing in them materially gave you or your argument anymore credibility.. it's become blatantly obvious to me that a) you always need the last say, and b) you usually get it with your incredibly long, monotonous, misguided posts.. i guess most readers switch off after your first 2 lines of dribble..

you drill into minute detail which always ends not with a substantial fact, but rather your not so humble opinion. you were previously a controversial figure on the forum, and not having witnessed your persistence or ignorance in real time left me without substantial opinion of yourself. now again i reiterate my joining of the "roy's a wacko club"..anyhow, post away - i shan't be re-checking this thread again.. your ongoing drivel is excruciating..

ct

 

[Roy]

i shan't be re-checking this thread again.. your ongoing drivel is excruciating..

So says BaliLife as he retreats from the school yard, crying, and seized by so much frustration, that it is necessary to stomp his feet. :lol:

"I shan't be back" he cries, while turning his head backward on the place where he once again, failed miserably.

 

[lars]

hallo forum members !
I would like to get information about property rules in Bali concerning court system. The story is stort : My wife (balinese) have land in Singaraja bought 1996 in her name. 1998 she got married with a mann from Holland and keept the original certificate in house in Holland. She got divorced 2004 in Holland and forgot certificate there. She rapport certificate missing in Holland, ex-husbond said he dont know where it is. December 2007 she suddenly have to be in court in Singaraja, because ex-husbond make court-case that she borrowed money from him. Thats not true and no proof but he bring the original certificate and use that to start the case, even thought he said to law in Holland he dont have it. Situation in court Singaraja is know that nothing really happens, only cost lot of money. The marriage agreement 1998 by deutch notary stats that both parts owe what they bring into marriage, meaning land belong to her acording to international rules. What is normally rules/tradition in case like this in Bali ? Actually the court case started without she got oficial invitation to meet in court

 

[Roy]

Hey Lars, welcome to the forum!

IMHO, this Dutch ex husband had better stick his finger in the dike, because what he will experience here in court against a Balinese will be a flood water and not a dribble.

Any contracts made outside of Indonesia, and not filed here are simply not going to hold up, or have any weight. This guy hasn’t a chance, but let him waste his money trying.