Upper schooling in Bali?
- Thread starter Petenjo
- Start date
Hello, i can tell us about my experience as teacher and as student in Indonesia.
i had work as teacher in Indonesia (High-Scholl), with 40 students in the class is not easy... but i love this hard work... i have compared with the other good job by multinational german concern in Jakarta ... they paid me very good ... but i was not happy with the job. Usually work the best absolvent from University -for this case Pedagogy-University or faculty- for foreign Firm, then they pay good. Just few from them go to teach... (i speak from my experience as absolvent from those university).
And i have my experience as student too...
it was hard work, we learn too much about things, what we don´t need in this live ... exist a couple theme about practice and applied science ...how we can applied for daily life in Indonesia... It was good.
As student we learn more for competition ... as young child we must go to the best SD, than to go to the best SMP... and SMA ... the life was just competition for me to get my chance in the best schools and good university. Without "best Higschool" you cannot go to best University ... or you must pay... and pay and pay to get all of them.
i had work as teacher in Indonesia (High-Scholl), with 40 students in the class is not easy... but i love this hard work... i have compared with the other good job by multinational german concern in Jakarta ... they paid me very good ... but i was not happy with the job. Usually work the best absolvent from University -for this case Pedagogy-University or faculty- for foreign Firm, then they pay good. Just few from them go to teach... (i speak from my experience as absolvent from those university).
And i have my experience as student too...
it was hard work, we learn too much about things, what we don´t need in this live ... exist a couple theme about practice and applied science ...how we can applied for daily life in Indonesia... It was good.
As student we learn more for competition ... as young child we must go to the best SD, than to go to the best SMP... and SMA ... the life was just competition for me to get my chance in the best schools and good university. Without "best Higschool" you cannot go to best University ... or you must pay... and pay and pay to get all of them.
thanks... is my avatar during the rainy time, just one day and i´m waiting for my flight. It´s right Tommy... Indonesian people is famous with their "senyum" 
:lol: always "senyum" and the world ... maybe better!
:lol: always "senyum" and the world ... maybe better!Re: RE: Upper schooling in Bali?
First, Jimbo, I teach in an international school not a local one. I'd like to volunteer in a local school when I retire, but for now a local school could not afford to hire me.
Second, teaching skills vary from place to place here, as they do every where else. I think that I said that the curriculum was very similar to ours in the international school where I teach, but that professional development was needed. I was interviewed for a local paper last year when my building a house in this remote village was something of a curiousity. The interview was mostly about education. I said essentially what I said here, although I was much more long-winded. The key negative point that I mentioned was the lack of professional development (I'm talking about primary and junior high teachers, not university level lecturers), the lack of resources in the classroom, and the low pay of teachers which makes many of them work several jobs (although for those not familiar with the US, many US teachers work several jobs as well).
Walk into a classroom of the normal village school, Jimbo, and what do you see? Almost nothing unfortunately. That needs to be changed.
Why do people send their kids to private schools? Status, hopes that the schooling will be better there than in a local school, more resources, smaller class sizes.
My point about all of this was that education here is better than most people (who know very little about education professionally) give it credit for and that, I believe, (based on 16 years of experience here, not based on what I read in the newspapers), it is improving and will continue to improve if the government is serious in increasing support to education.
I have a lot more that I would like to say about this, but I have to go teach.
Salam
Jimbo said:
First, Jimbo, I teach in an international school not a local one. I'd like to volunteer in a local school when I retire, but for now a local school could not afford to hire me.
Second, teaching skills vary from place to place here, as they do every where else. I think that I said that the curriculum was very similar to ours in the international school where I teach, but that professional development was needed. I was interviewed for a local paper last year when my building a house in this remote village was something of a curiousity. The interview was mostly about education. I said essentially what I said here, although I was much more long-winded. The key negative point that I mentioned was the lack of professional development (I'm talking about primary and junior high teachers, not university level lecturers), the lack of resources in the classroom, and the low pay of teachers which makes many of them work several jobs (although for those not familiar with the US, many US teachers work several jobs as well).
Walk into a classroom of the normal village school, Jimbo, and what do you see? Almost nothing unfortunately. That needs to be changed.
Why do people send their kids to private schools? Status, hopes that the schooling will be better there than in a local school, more resources, smaller class sizes.
My point about all of this was that education here is better than most people (who know very little about education professionally) give it credit for and that, I believe, (based on 16 years of experience here, not based on what I read in the newspapers), it is improving and will continue to improve if the government is serious in increasing support to education.
I have a lot more that I would like to say about this, but I have to go teach.
Salam
It is my experience that the standard of schooling at SD and SMP is not good at all ( Not talking just about Bali Roy) In villages the teachers use the children to work in the teachers garden and actuall schooling time is very limited. My own children went to SD and had to have extensive private tuition to succeed when we went back to the UK
My wifes brothers and sisters all went through the system and were helped financially by me up to SMA level. None succeed in University.
My main reason for returning to the UK was for the education system. Like Ni Luh and Newcastle, Manchester has a high proportion of people studying but many if not most of them pay. My admiration for people who study in a foreign language to achieve this education knows no bounds but they are here because they believe they get a better education as do I.
Apart from Bandung most universities are not up to western standards and most in Indonesia (Not Bali Roy) will not get a education of a high standard. Having said that what it achies with what it has is very good indeed.
My wifes brothers and sisters all went through the system and were helped financially by me up to SMA level. None succeed in University.
My main reason for returning to the UK was for the education system. Like Ni Luh and Newcastle, Manchester has a high proportion of people studying but many if not most of them pay. My admiration for people who study in a foreign language to achieve this education knows no bounds but they are here because they believe they get a better education as do I.
Apart from Bandung most universities are not up to western standards and most in Indonesia (Not Bali Roy) will not get a education of a high standard. Having said that what it achies with what it has is very good indeed.
Sorry Jimbo but I have to disagree with you once again. Yes, ITB in Bandung is an excellent university, particularly for technology (and oddly enough art) related degrees. However, Gajah Mada in Yogyakarta and the University of Indonesia in Jakarta are equally rated.
I have to cringe when I read, “most universities are not up to western standards.” I say, “who cares?” What are “western standards” and why should someone who will likely grow up, get educated in, and live and work in Indonesia care about “western standards?”
Jimbo, you write,
Is this Tanatoraja, Sulawesi you are talking about? You sure aren’t talking about Bali, so some clarification would be nice.
I have to cringe when I read, “most universities are not up to western standards.” I say, “who cares?” What are “western standards” and why should someone who will likely grow up, get educated in, and live and work in Indonesia care about “western standards?”
Jimbo, you write,
Is this Tanatoraja, Sulawesi you are talking about? You sure aren’t talking about Bali, so some clarification would be nice.
Roy you Question what are western standards.
I see this as technology in manufacturing. (which is my only knowledge base)
There will be more and more overseas investment in indonesia so the quality of university graduate engineers must increase.
These things are happening weather we like it or not.
so who cares about western education? Indonesia does and must.
I see this as technology in manufacturing. (which is my only knowledge base)
There will be more and more overseas investment in indonesia so the quality of university graduate engineers must increase.
These things are happening weather we like it or not.
so who cares about western education? Indonesia does and must.
No, I don’t see this. What I see is more of an emphasis in making education equally available to all children, at least at the primary, and hopefully secondary levels. Unlike many areas in the West, there is no “public” education in Indonesia. At all levels, education costs money. Last year, or there about, a new law was passed providing subsidies, and therefore a reduction in the costs for primary, and I think also secondary schooling, but it was a small percentage...I think around 10, or maybe as high as 20% of total costs.
The reason there is no “public” schooling in Indonesia is due to a lack of reliable tax revenue. Here in Bali, schools are generally operated and run within the village banjar system. Those banjars that are able to raise more revenues to support their schools, the infrastructure, books, teachers, etc, obviously provide a better education for the kids from that banjar as opposed, say, to a really poor banjar in East Bali, or where Bert is in northern Bali.
There is no doubt that access to education here is directly tied into the economic strength of the family of the children. But, and in spite of heavy taxation, I see the same thing in the US. Let’s face it, the quality of public education in the poorest areas of the US, or in its inner cities is poor. Conversely, the quality of public education in the richest areas is much better. Why? Because the tax revenue in higher income areas is greater, and they can support a higher level of free public education.
In a way...this all means nothing for the Balinese. The Balinese view their world as just that...their world. Within their culture, they have survived and prospered for centuries without any formal education. They learned from their family, which in Bali, is generally quite a large family with many, many relatives to draw upon in the urge to learn. What they learned from their families and ancestors provided them with all they needed to carry on, live, and prosper.
In my mind though, and it’s just my opinion, (although shared by many Balinese), Bali needs to wean itself from the economic reliance of tourism. To do this, the standards of education, and the availability of education has to be improved. Should those standards be “western” I think not. The “bar” should be raised on practical education and the learning of additional skills not taught in their kampung. That’s my view anyway.
Roy thanks for your response. Food for thought. Well written sir. I"ll give some thought to your opinions before i respond.
Davo writes,
Our past president, just before Ibu Mega, was Habibi. He was a brilliant engineer, educated (I think) at Cal Tech. Engineering, at all its levels, is very seriously taken in Indonesia as an important career. As Jimbo pointed out in an earlier post, the Institute of Technology in Bandung is excellent in all regards and fewer and fewer promising young engineers need to leave Indonesia for their studies.
I agree with what you imply, which I think is, as more and more foreign investment comes into Indonesia, shouldn't Indonesians be ready to take on the jobs that investment creates? Absolutely!
My own problem with this string is that we have swung from Bali to all of Indonesia, often within the same post. For example, I don’t think engineering expertise is important for a Balinese who wants to stay on Bali. For some readers, the confusion might be, “well heck, we’re talking about Indonesia, the country, so what’s the big deal a Balinese lives and works in Sumatra?” Well, it is actually a very big deal, for that Balinese.
Bali is ancestral. For a Balinese to be away from their own ancestral compound for a long time is a very difficult, and a painful experience. This is not being “home sick.” This is much more than that. Every Balinese I know that worked away from Bali, or studied away from Bali has told me the same story, including my own wife who worked for one year in Bintang and three years in Jakarta.
These Balinese, that have shared their stories with me all speak of an almost total loss of their spiritualism. It was, as some have said, as if they died and were now, in this strange land, floating on uncertainty. The uncertainty being, where amongst their ancestors will they be, or, can I even find them?
Bali will never be defined by the West. Bali will always find what she needs that cannot be found here. So, back to your point Davo, I agree 100%. My point is to not expect many Balinese engineers unless of course the plan is for a nuclear power plant in Kuta.
Our past president, just before Ibu Mega, was Habibi. He was a brilliant engineer, educated (I think) at Cal Tech. Engineering, at all its levels, is very seriously taken in Indonesia as an important career. As Jimbo pointed out in an earlier post, the Institute of Technology in Bandung is excellent in all regards and fewer and fewer promising young engineers need to leave Indonesia for their studies.
I agree with what you imply, which I think is, as more and more foreign investment comes into Indonesia, shouldn't Indonesians be ready to take on the jobs that investment creates? Absolutely!
My own problem with this string is that we have swung from Bali to all of Indonesia, often within the same post. For example, I don’t think engineering expertise is important for a Balinese who wants to stay on Bali. For some readers, the confusion might be, “well heck, we’re talking about Indonesia, the country, so what’s the big deal a Balinese lives and works in Sumatra?” Well, it is actually a very big deal, for that Balinese.
Bali is ancestral. For a Balinese to be away from their own ancestral compound for a long time is a very difficult, and a painful experience. This is not being “home sick.” This is much more than that. Every Balinese I know that worked away from Bali, or studied away from Bali has told me the same story, including my own wife who worked for one year in Bintang and three years in Jakarta.
These Balinese, that have shared their stories with me all speak of an almost total loss of their spiritualism. It was, as some have said, as if they died and were now, in this strange land, floating on uncertainty. The uncertainty being, where amongst their ancestors will they be, or, can I even find them?
Bali will never be defined by the West. Bali will always find what she needs that cannot be found here. So, back to your point Davo, I agree 100%. My point is to not expect many Balinese engineers unless of course the plan is for a nuclear power plant in Kuta.
Pak Jimbo,
Don't forget about ITS in Surabaya, I have met many of them, men and women, working as contract engineers here at the Boeing Co.
Before then, they worked in Germany,UK or Brazil in the Aerospace industries.
I heard that it is very expensive now to enroll to the best univ in Indonesia even though you "lulus ujian masuk'
Terima kasih
Roy
I am talking about a lot of places in Indonesia from Sumatra to Irian Jaya where I have seen this personally. If it does not happen in Bali thats fine but please kindly stop being so defensive about Bali. I have already clarified my last two posts by inclusion of (not Bali Roy).
I cannot keep up this forever. My posts tend generally to be none specific so unless it definitely refers to Bali can you please assume its not.
Dahlia
With Habbibie being an ex President and Minister of technology in this field I am sure you are correct about ITS. Strange how the only thing of note he ever did was to start up a Indonesian aircraft construction industry (Now defunct). Where you put the money in you will get results.
My final word on education is that if it is so good why do so many try to get it out of Indonesia?
I am talking about a lot of places in Indonesia from Sumatra to Irian Jaya where I have seen this personally. If it does not happen in Bali thats fine but please kindly stop being so defensive about Bali. I have already clarified my last two posts by inclusion of (not Bali Roy).
I cannot keep up this forever. My posts tend generally to be none specific so unless it definitely refers to Bali can you please assume its not.
Dahlia
With Habbibie being an ex President and Minister of technology in this field I am sure you are correct about ITS. Strange how the only thing of note he ever did was to start up a Indonesian aircraft construction industry (Now defunct). Where you put the money in you will get results.
My final word on education is that if it is so good why do so many try to get it out of Indonesia?
Jimbo, I think you need to re-read my post again. It is quite obvious that I knew you weren't talking about Bali in relation to the discussion concerning the standards of universities in Indonesia.
Sorry amigo, but you can forget about me becoming less defensive concerning Bali. It’s been my home for going on eight years, so you can bet I am going to defend it against inaccurate assumptions and generalizations made about Bali, (by any poster). Sorry amigo, but that is just the way it is.
Jimbo, this is a Bali forum with a section devoted to Lombok...is it not? I think it’s more reasonable to expect you to clarify what part or parts of Indonesia you are referring to if it is not Bali. Isn’t that logical? My point here is that while I and others may understand you may not be specifically referring to Bali in some of your posts, other readers may not understand this, and thus assume you are speaking of Bali. That could lead to misunderstands or misconceptions about Bali. We need to remember that a large number of people, many with little or no knowledge about Bali, read this forum to obtain such knowledge or understanding.
Not to beat this to death, but Jimbo, what you wrote was:
Doesn't the term, "not just talking about Bali" mean that Bali was included within that statement? If you had written, "not talking about Bali" that would have clearly excluded Bali from your comments. See my point?
Sorry amigo, but you can forget about me becoming less defensive concerning Bali. It’s been my home for going on eight years, so you can bet I am going to defend it against inaccurate assumptions and generalizations made about Bali, (by any poster). Sorry amigo, but that is just the way it is.
Jimbo, this is a Bali forum with a section devoted to Lombok...is it not? I think it’s more reasonable to expect you to clarify what part or parts of Indonesia you are referring to if it is not Bali. Isn’t that logical? My point here is that while I and others may understand you may not be specifically referring to Bali in some of your posts, other readers may not understand this, and thus assume you are speaking of Bali. That could lead to misunderstands or misconceptions about Bali. We need to remember that a large number of people, many with little or no knowledge about Bali, read this forum to obtain such knowledge or understanding.
Not to beat this to death, but Jimbo, what you wrote was:
Doesn't the term, "not just talking about Bali" mean that Bali was included within that statement? If you had written, "not talking about Bali" that would have clearly excluded Bali from your comments. See my point?
Dear Bapak Jimbo
I feel obliged to comment upon your postings as my name was mentioned therein. What I am about to write is strictly based on my own personal experience/observation.
I did not come to UK for better education. I was already enrolled in a very good university in the US (Bloomington). My parents asked me whether I would like to join them in England, which I accepted. I wanted to have European experience and that was the perfect opportunity for me.
I do believe UK Universities are really good but I must say American “corporate” Universities have more facilities and money for research etc with “corporate pockets”. I was surprised that UK education was very highly looked upon by other countries (EU, commonwealth countries, Russia, China etc). Dare I say they would rather have a UK education than a US one.
I appreciate the UK education system but the best thing being student in the UK is meeting a lot of people from different countries. We cooked (well them ), studied and laughed together and after that we would go clubbing, not so much for a drink but dancing at the student union. We studied and partied hard. Through my short time as a student I have been fascinated by different cultures and people that I come across. I am still in contact with many of my friends from Uni. Some of them have been to Bali with me and I look forward to accepting their invitations to visit their countries, in due course. My parents were also in the same city but they have given me the freedom to choose between living in their flat or my own accommodation.
Yes I have indeed had western education but this has nothing to do with the standard of Indonesian education. I should like to explain my reasoning going abroad.
My parents always let me make most of my decisions and they have always been supportive with whatever decision I made. I could be whatever I wanted to be and I am not necessary required to go to university if I that was the path I wanted to take. My dad always wanted to be in Military and my mom always wanted to be a professional piano player but their families required them to pursue the university route. They went to University in Indonesia. Not that they regretted their present career but they have come to appreciate not to put too much pressure on my little brother and I.
Why did I get out of Indonesia: at that time my dad was active in the Rotary Club and mentioned about a student exchange program. I was taking interests on the subject, and just jokingly asked my parents whether I can continue my schooling in USA. I could get to meet a real cowboy :lol:. To my surprise my parents actually said yes. I guess they trusted me enough and always knew that deep down I was a curious cat at heart. Every time I had holiday breaks I always planned my trips to see different places, I loved travelling alone and somehow I was not afraid of dangers.
My brother on the other hand is quite a different personality to me: more reserved and less interested in experiencing different cultures. He chose to do his pre university in Indonesia and was actually planning to continue his university in Indonesia but last minute he decided he wanted to do his University in Australia not UK despite my parents and I are here. Every time he had a break he always would go back to Bali as he missed Bali. I think it really was to see his girlfriend :lol: .
My parents are not very rich, they don’t put their money into buying luxurious cars or building grand house. They live modestly and choose to put their money towards their children and their education. To me personally my parents have given me the best experience that money can’t buy.
To reiterate I did not get out of Indonesia to seek better education but to experience different cultures. My parents would be perfectly happy had I wanted to go to an Indonesian University. I have never studied in an Indonesian University so I can’t personally comment on them, but as my parents are both very well educated and take professional development seriously then the Universities must be of a fairly decent standard. I think they chose the UK to finish their doctorates because they wanted a change of scenery and I guess like myself experience living in different cultures. My parents both graduated from Gajah Mada, as Oom Roy said it is a very good university. They took their masters also in Indonesia as they believe in the Indonesian education system.
Getting back to subject of Top Notch education:
I agree with Oom Roy. I think a lot of education, at least education on life, must come from the Parents. They are a great influence on the children in their younger years.
My husband went to a top-notch private school. I seen most of his friends ended up with good careers and many taking over their parents businesses. One of his friends did end up with a drugs problem and wasted most of his life through this. My husband thinks this is because he knows in the end he will end up with a very good inheritance and not need to work hard in life, as the rest of us have to.
Here is a question: I was made to understand in the UK that a little bit of military training is always good and highly looked upon. I am not so sure about this, what do you think Bapak Jimbo or others?
Many thanks
Ni Luh
I feel obliged to comment upon your postings as my name was mentioned therein. What I am about to write is strictly based on my own personal experience/observation.
Jimbo said:
I did not come to UK for better education. I was already enrolled in a very good university in the US (Bloomington). My parents asked me whether I would like to join them in England, which I accepted. I wanted to have European experience and that was the perfect opportunity for me.
I do believe UK Universities are really good but I must say American “corporate” Universities have more facilities and money for research etc with “corporate pockets”. I was surprised that UK education was very highly looked upon by other countries (EU, commonwealth countries, Russia, China etc). Dare I say they would rather have a UK education than a US one.
I appreciate the UK education system but the best thing being student in the UK is meeting a lot of people from different countries. We cooked (well them
), studied and laughed together and after that we would go clubbing, not so much for a drink but dancing at the student union. We studied and partied hard. Through my short time as a student I have been fascinated by different cultures and people that I come across. I am still in contact with many of my friends from Uni. Some of them have been to Bali with me and I look forward to accepting their invitations to visit their countries, in due course. My parents were also in the same city but they have given me the freedom to choose between living in their flat or my own accommodation. Jimbo said:
Yes I have indeed had western education but this has nothing to do with the standard of Indonesian education. I should like to explain my reasoning going abroad.
My parents always let me make most of my decisions and they have always been supportive with whatever decision I made. I could be whatever I wanted to be and I am not necessary required to go to university if I that was the path I wanted to take. My dad always wanted to be in Military and my mom always wanted to be a professional piano player but their families required them to pursue the university route. They went to University in Indonesia. Not that they regretted their present career but they have come to appreciate not to put too much pressure on my little brother and I.
Why did I get out of Indonesia: at that time my dad was active in the Rotary Club and mentioned about a student exchange program. I was taking interests on the subject, and just jokingly asked my parents whether I can continue my schooling in USA. I could get to meet a real cowboy :lol:. To my surprise my parents actually said yes. I guess they trusted me enough and always knew that deep down I was a curious cat at heart. Every time I had holiday breaks I always planned my trips to see different places, I loved travelling alone and somehow I was not afraid of dangers.
My brother on the other hand is quite a different personality to me: more reserved and less interested in experiencing different cultures. He chose to do his pre university in Indonesia and was actually planning to continue his university in Indonesia but last minute he decided he wanted to do his University in Australia not UK despite my parents and I are here. Every time he had a break he always would go back to Bali as he missed Bali. I think it really was to see his girlfriend :lol:
.Jimbo said:
My parents are not very rich, they don’t put their money into buying luxurious cars or building grand house. They live modestly and choose to put their money towards their children and their education. To me personally my parents have given me the best experience that money can’t buy.
To reiterate I did not get out of Indonesia to seek better education but to experience different cultures. My parents would be perfectly happy had I wanted to go to an Indonesian University. I have never studied in an Indonesian University so I can’t personally comment on them, but as my parents are both very well educated and take professional development seriously then the Universities must be of a fairly decent standard. I think they chose the UK to finish their doctorates because they wanted a change of scenery and I guess like myself experience living in different cultures. My parents both graduated from Gajah Mada, as Oom Roy said it is a very good university. They took their masters also in Indonesia as they believe in the Indonesian education system.
Getting back to subject of Top Notch education:
Roy said:
I agree with Oom Roy. I think a lot of education, at least education on life, must come from the Parents. They are a great influence on the children in their younger years.
Roy said:
My husband went to a top-notch private school. I seen most of his friends ended up with good careers and many taking over their parents businesses. One of his friends did end up with a drugs problem and wasted most of his life through this. My husband thinks this is because he knows in the end he will end up with a very good inheritance and not need to work hard in life, as the rest of us have to.
Here is a question: I was made to understand in the UK that a little bit of military training is always good and highly looked upon. I am not so sure about this, what do you think Bapak Jimbo or others?
Many thanks
Ni Luh
Roy
The reason I wrote "not just talking about Bali Roy" was so that you did not think it was about Bali rather than part of it was. Frankly Roy I am tired of you attacking every point of view on the basis of you know best about Bali and if I read one more time how long you have lived on the island I will scream. You can really be a pain in the butt on the subject with you parochial viewpoint on one small part of a small island.
In future please just ignore my posts and assume they have nothing to do with Bali. I would also be grateful if you let the moderator decide if my posts are on topic or not.
If you need the last word ( and I am sure you will) go for it.
Ni Luh
My apologies if you thought my post was to do with you specifically it was not. I was talking about both Newcastle and Manchester being university cities with a large proportion of outside students. Nothing to do with your education.
When you read my post in conjunction with this you will see it was not personal and as such was taken out of context. You are of course entitled to your point of view even if I don't always agree with it.
On the subject of the military my point of view is a pure volunteer Army only. Discipline comes from within and not without and the Army will not teach it to you but only channel what is already there. It is also not an institute to make a "man of you"
The reason I wrote "not just talking about Bali Roy" was so that you did not think it was about Bali rather than part of it was. Frankly Roy I am tired of you attacking every point of view on the basis of you know best about Bali and if I read one more time how long you have lived on the island I will scream. You can really be a pain in the butt on the subject with you parochial viewpoint on one small part of a small island.
In future please just ignore my posts and assume they have nothing to do with Bali. I would also be grateful if you let the moderator decide if my posts are on topic or not.
If you need the last word ( and I am sure you will) go for it.
Ni Luh
My apologies if you thought my post was to do with you specifically it was not. I was talking about both Newcastle and Manchester being university cities with a large proportion of outside students. Nothing to do with your education.
When you read my post in conjunction with this you will see it was not personal and as such was taken out of context. You are of course entitled to your point of view even if I don't always agree with it.
On the subject of the military my point of view is a pure volunteer Army only. Discipline comes from within and not without and the Army will not teach it to you but only channel what is already there. It is also not an institute to make a "man of you"
So Jimbo, what you are saying is that your post, already quoted, and when you wrote:
...you were referring, in part to Bali. Fine, but that is wrong, as this does not go on in Bali...period.
Jimbo, you and I and the 30 or so odd other regular posters here do not represent the total reading population of this forum. This is NOT a chat room, rather, it is a forum and past posts remain in the archives for anyone to search and read. As I already made clear, I will NOT sit back and let “urban legends” accumulate about Bali. My repetitive reference to my longevity on Bali is not intended to aggravate you, rather it is only intended to offer some foundation for the basis of my posts.
Jimbo, you have a great foundation which enables you to comment on other parts of Indonesia. There are some 15 thousand islands here, and more than 400 ethnic groups, most all with their own indigenous language. Don’t you think it’s only fair that if you are making a post based on your experiences in Kalimantan, Sumatra, or Irian Jaya that you make that clear when you post?
Sorry Jimbo, but this is a Bali forum. If you are unwilling to direct your posts to the specific areas of Indonesia which you care to comment, without clarification that your comments are not being made about Bali, then you can expect (and count on), further rebuttal.
I’m not out to “nit pick” on you Jimbo, or to argue with you. Conversely, I am not going to let pass outrageous summaries or generalizations which are just not true.
I’m sorry if you feel I need “the last word” and you surely can offer more to this discussion if you wish. Your comment seems to infer that you wish to end the discussion, but unfairly setting me up as “itching” for the “last word.” Is that fair in a debate in your view?
All I am asking Jimbo, is that you make your points, comments, observations, and experiences clear. If you wish to comment on areas of Indonesia other than Bali, then I for one would appreciate what specific areas of Indonesia (other than Bali) you are commenting on. That’s all. OK? Fair enough?