Notories and the Prenuptial Agreement

[Smoke]

This is my personal experience of chosing and using a notary for my prenuptial agreement to my Indonesian fiancé. We asked around for a few recommendations and were given 3 highly recommended notaries.
A little about us first that when we visited the notories , we informed them of this information. My fiancé was previously married and has a 13 year old daughter in Lombok( yes we visit a lot and constant communications).I legally don’t own any vehicles but have them in trusted local friends names( as most expats do ).This does amount to a lot of rupiah .

Notory # 1 suggested I change all vehicles to my fiancés name before marrage ( so if no marriage I am without vehicles) and also pre marriage they are considered HER property only. Also no divorce certificate as was needed or asked for. She just wanted 3 million and 2 weeks ( an addition 1 million to speed it up to 1 week). Sorry I need to protect my assets)

Notary #2 was a no show for 3 appointments with a vast array of excuses . Not good

Notary # 3 a friend’s wife scheduled the appointment and even escorted us to see him. He was very thorough after we explained our situation . He recommended what to do about the vehicles ( keep as is if we both agreed) and asked fiancé about divorce status and KTP card information( KTP also gives religion, single, Married, divorce status etc. )Since we were both happy with his knowledge and explanations ,we chose him. He stated processing takes 3-4 days with the courts.

It has taken a full 3 months to get a Muslim divorce in the courts. The final divorce certificate took about 30 days to process since the granting of the divorce.
Since getting the divorce certificate in hand, we made an appointment for our prenupial agreement to be started.
Eddy our notary went over our agreement and explained everything again. He even took the time to explain the Postnuptial agreement we should get once we are married. This would be for property and other items that we will own jointly once married.

So interview notaries and go with common sense. As a non RI you also have to have some protection .

Here is the Notary I used and will use for the post nup also

 

[Smoke]

Prenup agreement was picked up Friday (on schedule). We received an Indonesian copy for my Fiance and an English copy for me. Eddy, the notary explained we should do a post nup agreement after the wedding and before purchasing property. This will supposedly allow the RI spouse to legally own our land and such.

 

[Markit]

Unfortunately it will only become clear when/if it all goes pear-shaped which or who was/would have been the better notary choice.

In all honesty I think most of these precautions are useless or worse still dangerous as they lead many people to believe that they have some rights here.

If you look at the experiences of most expats and non-indos if it comes to a situation where you are going to an Indo court to get your rights then you have already lost and are just throwing good money after bad.

You can have all the paper agreements you want in the world but the fact remains that with a "tame" immigration officer on her side your lovely and loving wife can have you permanently excluded from the country the next time you decide to pop off for some R & R to Thailand or Singapore and there isn't a damn thing anyone could do about until all your worldly "protected" goods had long since found new owners.

That's why I think your agreements are dangerous as it leads the owner to believe he is protected and can handle any old way he wants without regard to possible consequences.

But what do I know?

 

[davita]

I'm glad things are working well for you in this maze of Indonesian bureacracy...I really am... and wish you well in the upcoming nuptials.
but....you will surely excuse my slight sense of humor reading your somewhat contradictory information.

i.e. you advise... 'So interview notaries and go with common sense. As a non RI you also have to have some protection.'

and yet your pronounced signature advice on all your other posts...

Please Leave your Western thoughts and ways at Immigration ....:highly_amused:

 

[spicyayam]

I am not speaking for Smoke, but I believe the reason most foreigners get a pre-nup is for buying property in RI. Most notaries won't handle transactions without a pre-nup now.

 

[davita]

A pre-nup agreement, written in most other countries that have such law, means that prior to a wedding each person declares their assets. In case of divorce those assets are separated from the mutual assets gained during the marriage.

It's a bit like saying what WAS mine is STILL mine....after a divorce.

In RI, its archaic agrarian law says no foreigner, nor an Indonesian married to a foreigner, can own freehold land (hak milik). The law says a WNI must sell freehold assets, within one year, after marriage to a foreigner.
A way around this is to create a pre-nup before the wedding to a foreigner takes place. This puts those freehold land assets out of the foreigner's domain due to death of the WNI, or divorce from the foreigner.
Creatively, it also permits the WNI to purchase land in his/her own right, after marriage, due to the text of the pre-nup. The principle is that the WNA has no rights to such freehold property (no matter his/her financial interest)....which complies with the agrarian land law. It could be argued that a contract has a similar function but, apparently, a contract cannot circumvent the greater law.

Therefore.....
In Indonesia, what WAS mine is the WNI's....after a divorce....:icon_e_surprised:

On another thread samsiam commented that other countries (e.g. Australia, Canada, USA) were stupid to allow Indonesians to buy freehold property when Indonesians don't reciprocate...but why should they change when they're looking at a 'gift horse in the mouth'.
Touché

 

[paulseawind]

I tried to set up a Pre-Nup in Australia within the last 18 months
It ended with a surprise

I was advised by a gun lawyer which Pre-Nup 'expert' to use and I took his advice because he's the smartest lawyer I had ever encountered
I arranged the initial appointment with 2 short emails, paid the asking $1,500 up front and then arrived on time on the correct day
The 54 minute meeting was interesting and she told me lots of things I wasn't aware of, but not, IMHO, $1,500 worth

Things were going well and within ten days I had a 'draft' of the actual Pre-Nup with a 'please review and fill in the blanks', 'there's no rush' and 'just take your time' third email
Fine, I thought
Nice
Efficient

Then I read through the draft and started to build more questions, just through my lack of experience with this type of thing
I emailed back saying I would not be getting back with a response anytime soon so just hold this matter until I do
No reply

About a month later they started pushing for a response from me
I replied saying 'I already said I will not be quick with this' and 'you said . . .'
I had some work to do with the 'wife' (we aren't married legally but we are in every other sense of it)

Before another month had passed they were onto me and had prepared a final bill
Wow - I was pretty stunned when I read the bill

She was charging $450 an hour and had I have known that I would never have proceeded at all
Also, there were 5 other people's names who had worked on my 'case' including the receptionist who had done some kind of filing documents (just in their office, not in the Court) for $80
The 2 initial emails were charged at $40 each - about 2-3 lines each
Anyhow, my $1,500 was all used up and they asked for another about $350

I did not respond again, did not go back there and I have heard nothing

I texted the gun lawyer asking, basically, WTF?
No reply

It's a good thing my wifey has a very decent streak however, she will fight tooth and nail for something that is hers and be just as resolute by not trying to take, if it is not hers
She and I are in this to the end and I think now, going on what I know of her from many types of situations that if I tried to make a Pre-Nup again it would hurt her heart and I would be insulting her greatly, and I am not going to do that

It is now November 2014 and I am confident by November 2034 it will still be the same

When I said it this ended with a surprise, the surprise was that a) I got taken for a merry ride which does not usually happen to me and b) I discovered I have a true 'keeper' for a life partner

Note: 'taken for a merry ride' = they over-charged to the hilt

And, I am not saying if you think you need a Pre-Nup then why get hitched in the first place. I am not saying that. Definitely not.
What I am saying is Pre-Nups are a personal thing and some people will just have to have one in place (BTW, they need to be reviewed and updated as time goes by due to asset disposal, etc) and I believe they work well if they are done properly so by all means get one and then you feel better
In Australia, both parties must sign the one document
I took that to be a good upcoming test and will be a true indicator of what lies ahead because it occurred to me that if I spend a few thousand getting to that point and she says "Nup - not signing" (pun intended) then you have got out of it cheaply

What are the possible outcomes?
#1: No Pre-Nup and no trouble forever - heavenly mmmmmmm , yes please
#2: No Pre-Nup and trouble ahead - that's a big kickself
#3: Pre-Nup and no trouble ever - just like a #1 except it will haunt you on occasions and that acid burning feeling will arrest your moment, however, you will survive
#4: Pre-Nup and trouble ahead Mark I - OK, trot out the up-to-date document and start reading from and using it - shouldn't be a problem
#5: Pre-Nup and trouble ahead Mark II - OK, trot out the not so up-to-date document and start paying lawyers

That's my $0.02c worth on Pre-Nups

 

[Markit]

Paul I feel that either I don't understand your situation or you don't understand the necessity of the pre-nup here in Indonesia when marrying an Indonesian.

You don't say if your intended is Indonesian.

A) If yes, why are you doing a prenup in Oz?

B) If no, why should a Expat forum in Bali care?

 

[paulseawind]

Paul I feel that either I don't understand your situation or you don't understand the necessity of the pre-nup here in Indonesia when marrying an Indonesian.

You don't say if your intended is Indonesian.

A) If yes, why are you doing a prenup in Oz?

B) If no, why should a Expat forum in Bali care?

Markit

Thanks for your response

My 'aim' is not for you to understand my situation, so please just skip that part

And you are 100% correct - I do not understand the 'necessity' of a Pre-Nup when a foreigner weds an Indonesian - I know zip about that, but I will now research and educate myself, for interest's sake, and many thanks for pointing me to that - I always appreciate good info/pointers and this is a good one

Yes, I have not said if my other half is Indonesian - once again, correct

My post (clearly) said I am not doing a Pre-Nup in Australia so your question A) is answered in the negative

As for question B), that's a matter for each person, as are most things
Why should someone care?
Experiences from other 'areas' are of value not only in their local environment
One sharp example is "World News"

Thanks again for your response and please 'keep em coming'

 

[Smoke]

Unfortunately it will only become clear when/if it all goes pear-shaped which or who was/would have been the better notary choice.

In all honesty I think most of these precautions are useless or worse still dangerous as they lead many people to believe that they have some rights here.

If you look at the experiences of most expats and non-indos if it comes to a situation where you are going to an Indo court to get your rights then you have already lost and are just throwing good money after bad.

You can have all the paper agreements you want in the world but the fact remains that with a "tame" immigration officer on her side your lovely and loving wife can have you permanently excluded from the country the next time you decide to pop off for some R & R to Thailand or Singapore and there isn't a damn thing anyone could do about until all your worldly "protected" goods had long since found new owners.

That's why I think your agreements are dangerous as it leads the owner to believe he is protected and can handle any old way he wants without regard to possible consequences.

But what do I know?

Markit this is proper RI law and sole purpose of this in correct order is for an RI spouse to legally purchase property under the RI laws. with out a prenup before marrage technically they can not purchase land legally .
Supposedly when done properly I have to sign off on selling the property or incase of divorce we must sell or I can buy her half out and use the nominee way.If RI spouse happens to die I have 12 months to sell the property or sell to my nominee if not spouses family gets.

yes RI is king of duplication including many having several different KTP's and other documents. But from my research much safer then a nominee system many use .


This prenup is really for RI spouse for us to legally own land in RI

Honestly the first notorious wanted me to put all my non assets in her name( now what happens if wedding not go off I could lose it all since even the prenup( by RI courts) says spouse to be owns it all?

what if I got caught Jiggy jig her sister and she wanted a divorce 2 weeks after the wedding ? I lose all the vehicles cause they were hers before the wedding

what bout your agreements are you worried ?

 

[Smoke]

I'm glad things are working well for you in this maze of Indonesian bureacracy...I really am... and wish you well in the upcoming nuptials.
but....you will surely excuse my slight sense of humor reading your somewhat contradictory information.

i.e. you advise... 'So interview notaries and go with common sense. As a non RI you also have to have some protection.'

and yet your pronounced signature advice on all your other posts...

Please Leave your Western thoughts and ways at Immigration ....:highly_amused:

Davita it is a maze of Indonesian bureacracy and at its finest and ty for the well wishes

Now common sense and leaving your western thoughts and ways at Immigration are big differences

I following what RI law mandates to own property as a expat and Local married .

 

[Smoke]

I am not speaking for Smoke, but I believe the reason most foreigners get a pre-nup is for buying property in RI. Most notaries won't handle transactions without a pre-nup now.

100 Percent .I few mixed marrage friends can not legally purchase land due to this .Some have had to have other RI family purchase the land much like the nominee system .
believe it or not what happens when your family member dies or gets a divorce guess you **** a brick on losing your home also

 

[Smoke]

Markit

Thanks for your response

My 'aim' is not for you to understand my situation, so please just skip that part

And you are 100% correct - I do not understand the 'necessity' of a Pre-Nup when a foreigner weds an Indonesian - I know zip about that, but I will now research and educate myself, for interest's sake, and many thanks for pointing me to that - I always appreciate good info/pointers and this is a good one

Yes, I have not said if my other half is Indonesian - once again, correct

My post (clearly) said I am not doing a Pre-Nup in Australia so your question A) is answered in the negative

As for question B), that's a matter for each person, as are most things
Why should someone care?
Experiences from other 'areas' are of value not only in their local environment
One sharp example is "World News"

Thanks again for your response and please 'keep em coming'

your Oz prenup in RI is good for toilet paper

Any assets I have outside of RI are not affected by the RI prenup . This includes stocks, bonds, real estate even wills and death insurances)

A RI prenup is basically for your Local spouse to legally purchase land which with a post nup you jointly own basically

 

[paulseawind]

your Oz prenup in RI is good for toilet paper
Any assets I have outside of RI are not affected by the RI prenup . This includes stocks, bonds, real estate even wills and death insurances)
A RI prenup is basically for your Local spouse to legally purchase land which with a post nup you jointly own basically

Smoke, thanks for your reply
An Australian Pre-Nup is only good for Australian assets, in Australia, I agree, AFAIK, due to 'Australian Legal System'

Best Wishes and Best Luck with your Love
I really hope it is the Love of the Century for you
It should be
That would be so nice

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, thanks for your reply
An Australian Pre-Nup is only good for Australian assets, in Australia, I agree, AFAIK, due to 'Australian Legal System'

Best Wishes and Best Luck with your Love
I really hope it is the Love of the Century for you
It should be
That would be so nice

thank you hope I not die on the wedding night :icon_wink:

 

[paulseawind]

thank you hope I not die on the wedding night :icon_wink:

You'll be cool, bruss
For sure
Take photos to look back on

Have A Nice Life

 

[Mark]

Markit this is proper RI law and sole purpose of this in correct order is for an RI spouse to legally purchase property under the RI laws. with out a prenup before marrage technically they can not purchase land legally .
Supposedly when done properly I have to sign off on selling the property or incase of divorce we must sell or I can buy her half out and use the nominee way.If RI spouse happens to die I have 12 months to sell the property or sell to my nominee if not spouses family gets.

My wife and I signed a prenup for precisely this reason. She already owned property in Jakarta at the time of our marriage and would have lost the right to own it legally without a prenup. The prenup also came in handy for our, I mean, her, land purchase in Bali. However, I don't imagine for one second that the document really protects me. Instead it protects her as a WNI married to a bule who wants to retain the right to own real property in her own country.

One piece of advice Smoke - make sure that the document is not only signed before your marriage, but also duly registered and filed with the District Court (your notary can no doubt take care of this).

 

[Smoke]

My wife and I signed a prenup for precisely this reason. She already owned property in Jakarta at the time of our marriage and would have lost the right to own it legally without a prenup. The prenup also came in handy for our, I mean, her, land purchase in Bali. However, I don't imagine for one second that the document really protects me. Instead it protects her as a WNI married to a bule who wants to retain the right to own real property in her own country.

One piece of advice Smoke - make sure that the document is not only signed before your marriage, but also duly registered and filed with the District Court (your notary can no doubt take care of this).

I actually think it helps the bule also,as the pre nup and the post nup ( registed and filed with the courts ) to show the courts for future use . I agree it also protects RI spouse on any previous land also .. but future land "technically" is Jointly

Yes it being processed and filed with the courts by eddy the notory . should have it ready Friday . then we can set a "good date" for a muslim wedding and a Balinese celebration :drunk::drunk::drunk:

 

[Braveheart_shaped_box]

This is my personal experience of chosing and using a notary for my prenuptial agreement to my Indonesian fiancé. We asked around for a few recommendations and were given 3 highly recommended notaries.
A little about us first that when we visited the notories , we informed them of this information. My fiancé was previously married and has a 13 year old daughter in Lombok( yes we visit a lot and constant communications).I legally don’t own any vehicles but have them in trusted local friends names( as most expats do ).This does amount to a lot of rupiah .

Notory # 1 suggested I change all vehicles to my fiancés name before marrage ( so if no marriage I am without vehicles) and also pre marriage they are considered HER property only. Also no divorce certificate as was needed or asked for. She just wanted 3 million and 2 weeks ( an addition 1 million to speed it up to 1 week). Sorry I need to protect my assets)

Notary #2 was a no show for 3 appointments with a vast array of excuses . Not good

Notary # 3 a friend’s wife scheduled the appointment and even escorted us to see him. He was very thorough after we explained our situation . He recommended what to do about the vehicles ( keep as is if we both agreed) and asked fiancé about divorce status and KTP card information( KTP also gives religion, single, Married, divorce status etc. )Since we were both happy with his knowledge and explanations ,we chose him. He stated processing takes 3-4 days with the courts.

It has taken a full 3 months to get a Muslim divorce in the courts. The final divorce certificate took about 30 days to process since the granting of the divorce.
Since getting the divorce certificate in hand, we made an appointment for our prenupial agreement to be started.
Eddy our notary went over our agreement and explained everything again. He even took the time to explain the Postnuptial agreement we should get once we are married. This would be for property and other items that we will own jointly once married.

So interview notaries and go with common sense. As a non RI you also have to have some protection .

Here is the Notary I used and will use for the post nup also

Good Luck on every level.

 

[Smoke]

Thank you very much [MENTION=18287]Braveheart_shaped_box[/MENTION]