More property scams

[mugwump]

Maybe not "name and shame" if this is a small example. If an ongoing thing with a possibility of punishment then why ignore?
To be sure all incidents to be publicly condemned require evidence without bias, but where it exists with an opportunity to warn others it would seem to have merit.

 

[Mark]

I agree with mugwump... how about just shame without the name? That way we all learn something...

 

[spicyayam]

It's not easy. The people reading this forum are unlikely to get caught up in a scam like this, so probably wouldn't make much sense mentioning it here. By the sounds of the perps are nasty people who will do anything to silence their victims. Hopefully if it goes to court then the local media can pick up on it.

 

[Juggler]

HI can any one recommend a good reliable notaris in the Berewa/Badang region?
I had one recommendation from a fellow podder but after the meeting it was evident that they didn't do the due diligence part of the transaction so im a unsure as to what I would be actually paying for.

any help apprecited

 

[Mark]

HI can any one recommend a good reliable notaris in the Berewa/Badang region?
I had one recommendation from a fellow podder but after the meeting it was evident that they didn't do the due diligence part of the transaction so im a unsure as to what I would be actually paying for.

any help apprecited

What due diligence are you referring to? The notaris should check to ensure that the party selling the property actually owns it as per the certificate, that there are no encumbrances filed against the property, that the purchase and sale (or lease) contract is made and properly signed by the relevant parties on the terms agreed and that the government gets paid its taxes from the transaction. If you are referring to issues like access rights, property lines, whether the property can be used for building (ie zoning) etc., you will need to engage a consultant or lawyer to help you with this.

 

[Juggler]

What due diligence are you referring to? The notaris should check to ensure that the party selling the property actually owns it as per the certificate, that there are no encumbrances filed against the property, that the purchase and sale (or lease) contract is made and properly signed by the relevant parties on the terms agreed and that the government gets paid its taxes from the transaction. If you are referring to issues like access rights, property lines, whether the property can be used for building (ie zoning) etc., you will need to engage a consultant or lawyer to help you with this.

Thx Marc
This has clarified it for me. So Notaris does title checks to ensure ownership and clear title and a lawyer does access, boundaries and titles I’m assuming.
Appreciate your time and help

 

[Juggler]

I think I was getting confused when the agent asked me who was doing my due diligence.
So to my way of thinking there are two levels of due diligence the Notaris level and the lawyer level. Would this be a fair assumption

 

[Mark]

I think I was getting confused when the agent asked me who was doing my due diligence.
So to my way of thinking there are two levels of due diligence the Notaris level and the lawyer level. Would this be a fair assumption

Yes, that would be a fair assumption. A lawyer would be someone who could/should perform due diligence beyond the purely transactional aspects of the deal - which will be performed by the notary but which you could ask the lawyer to verify as well.

Also, in addition to the more obvious due diligence (ownership, access, boundaries, zoning etc), you may wish to meet with the klian banjar (head guy in the village) to introduce yourself and see if they have any issues with you buying/leasing property there. In 90%+ of cases you will be welcomed, but if you're not then take that as a red flag. You would also be wise to ask about any official banjar or desa fees associated with buying/leasing land and building. In more and more banjars in Bali, when a foreigner buys or leases from a non-banjar member, there is a local tax to be paid which can be up to 2.5% of the government declared transaction value. There may also be another tax on building. Water can be an issue, eg, are you allowed to dig a bore or a well and if not, how does the local water distribution system work and how much will it cost you to connect and what are the usage tariffs? Electricity is usually no problem these days, but it would make sense to see where the nearest pole is and if not next to you, plan on paying to bring power to the land.

Lots of issues to consider (my list is not necessary exhaustive but all I can think of off the the top of my head at this moment), so you would be wise to proceed carefully. The key point is to understand as much as you can in advance to minimize your risk so that if something does go wrong (and in Indonesia something always seems to go in a way not planned), it's not too big of a deal. Good luck.

 

[Markit]

I don't think the addition of a lawyer in the mix will improve your chances at all. The notary will inspect all the necessary paperwork and that's it, job done. All the information about the property is on the certificate(s) you will receive the originals of upon purchase but copies will tell you all you need to know. Make sure you question if the property owners are all in agreement about the sale (all the male members of the family) and then get a note from the Kepala Desa about your access rights and/or from the owner of your road, if any. Also check carefully about water, where you are thinking of living is notoriously dry and trucking it in costs big bucks.

 

[Mark]

You could do without a lawyer, however someone needs to ensure that the property is already zoned for residential building (unlikely) or can be re-zoned without too much trouble (eg that the land is not in a designated greenbelt area or too near a temple). Access from the public road, if over another person's land, should be by written agreement with the relevant party and done through the notary.

 

[Markit]

Not sure if I've said this here before (Alzheimer's) but another short-cut is to make the provision of an IMB part of the sale agreement - i.e. get the present owner to organize your IMB (building permission). He will have to do all the checks (green-belt, agreement with the neighbors, planning permission, etc.) As a longtime resident he will have connections you can only dream of and will cut your work immensely. He's not gonna be happy but fuckem if he wants to sell bad enough...

You should still do the access checking though.

 

[mdh338]

My wife offers a property due diligence service. Most of the time she has encountered issues. Some were deal breakers and other times there was a solution. I think you need to remember that notaries, work for both sides in a property transaction. Their goal is to get the deal done so they get paid. If they spot something irregular they might not point it out.

Hello Spicyayam,

Interested in renting a villa for one year then subleasing the rental periodically when I’m away. Do you or your wife know of anyone local who speaks English that can advise and help? I will compensate of course.

 

[tel522]

Hello Spicyayam,

Interested in renting a villa for one year then subleasing the rental periodically when I’m away. Do you or your wife know of anyone local who speaks English that can advise and help? I will compensate of course.

I presume you have a pondok wisata , which you would need to do this legally.

 

[Juggler]

Guys
thx for all the advice, it has been super helpful..
we have elected to go down the road of an establiahed villa, Buying land to develope at this point is just a little to complicated for us ATM. Once we are settled in and know the lay of the land a little better we may try it at a later stage.
Looking foward to being over there permanently.

cheers

 

[mdh338]

I presume you have a pondok wisata , which you would need to do this legally.

No not yet. Do you or your wife know a local Balinese who can speak English who can help with this.?

 

[tel522]

No not yet. Do you or your wife know a local Balinese who can speak English who can help with this.?

sorry no ,

 

[spicyayam]

Consider that a notary will only get paid if the transaction goes through. If they find something might make the buyer reconsider, will they

a) inform the buyer
b) pretend they didn't know about it, so the transaction goes through

When someone complained to my wife her fee was too expensive, she told them a story of someone who lost $200,000 because they didn't use a lawyer. She asked them again if her fee was too expensive.

 

[harryopal]

On the subject of scams I was reading today of some operators in Melbourne who take a short term lease on an beautiful high rise unit in the inner city area. They then advertise the unit as available at a very attractive price. But they don't immediately go for the hook when they get a nibble. They allow prospective "tenants" to see the property but indicate that others are also interested and resist offers to lease immediately. Then after a few days they come back and say the property could be available if the prospective "tenant" would pay six months in advance. The "lessor" uses fake IDs and documents to draw in the prospect. (Unlike here, rentals are usually paid for on the basis of a month in advance plus a bond and then paid on a monthly basis.) In one case referred to this morning, the eager lessee paid the $15,000 and then... suddenly, the "lessor" had disappeared.

 

[spicyayam]

On the subject of scams I was reading today of some operators in Melbourne who take a short term lease on an beautiful high rise unit in the inner city area. They then advertise the unit as available at a very attractive price. But they don't immediately go for the hook when they get a nibble. They allow prospective "tenants" to see the property but indicate that others are also interested and resist offers to lease immediately. Then after a few days they come back and say the property could be available if the prospective "tenant" would pay six months in advance. The "lessor" uses fake IDs and documents to draw in the prospect. (Unlike here, rentals are usually paid for on the basis of a month in advance plus a bond and then paid on a monthly basis.) In one case referred to this morning, the eager lessee paid the $15,000 and then... suddenly, the "lessor" had disappeared.

Interesting, but you would think that it would be easy to track down the original person who rented the apartment. It's a common scam in Asia but it would easier to carry out as real estate laws are lax or non-existent.

 

[cosmos]

I am purchasing a property at the moment and the estate agent has recommended and is doing my due diligence as i write, he is charging .5%, which i find extremely cheap, considering i read it could cost between 2-4 %, the agent has also stated that when i have signed off on this, to send the balance directly to the owner who lives in New Zealand, is this normal