gilbert de jong

Active Member
Jan 20, 2009
3,198
3
36
Panji, Singaraja.
You've built one home in Bali Gil. We've built hundreds of homes across Indonesia. Thanks for your advice.

On a serious and undirected note, this is a large problem in Bali. Many people like Gil and Markit assume because a building site doesn't look like or operate in the same manner as a site in the West that basic principles don't need to be adhered to or checked. This couldn't be any further from the truth. For the very reason that we're building in this part of the world, where materials may not be up to grade and geological risks are far more abundant, we have to be even more meticulous in ensuring we've checked the integrity of everything, including of course the concrete, which is the strength in the structure of your home.

Does anyone really want to be living in a home, that even on paper is structurally unsound?

The presentation or appearance of a building site is not what is important. What is important is the final product and if you're not checking along the way (e.g. the strength of your concrete), then you have absolutely no measure to assume "it's good enough" - all you can say is, "it's standing and hasn't fallen down yet".


All the best..

Populaire

I didn't mean you only sell concrete..but to have an lecture about ready steady go mix concrete, and then to say that you don't use it on Bali (well at least on the 3 sites now you don't) is to say the least very funny. Ofcourse testing is good, didn't say that's not good...just 9 out of 10 dont.
btw, why do you think my constructor/architect didn't perform tests? I hold a warranty of 15 years :icon_mrgreen:
FYI, on Bali I have build one house, the one I life in...but have been involved (picking up the tab) in renovating some schools, a bit of homes for the "kurang mampu" and some other things like the new footbal stadium in Pasuruan. so very true, that in experience 'you' far out outweigh me...hell 'your' company is in this business for 40 years right.
But I do have some experience in building overseas too :icon_biggrin:

Please understand, I am not saying you are wrong...I am just saying building on Bali is very very different then building on java or overseas, different in customs (ceremonies/habits/work attitude/quality(lastability) of products/etcetc...)...
 

Fred2

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2010
1,182
83
48
Surabaya/Australia
Hi Fred,

You're based in Surabaya?

It may not be conceivable that the world is in fact this small but by any chance were you in Bali in August to farewell a close friend? If so, you've met some of our team already at the service. If not, then the world isn't obviously quite as small as it might otherwise be.

Will PM you as requested.

All the best..

Populaire
Sorry Populaire I was not in Bali, But I'm in Bangkok next week:icon_biggrin:
One of my biggest peeveeeessss, is finding tools & equipment why can't someone build a big bunning's over here???? things that you can buy any were in Australia are not available here, concrete edger, a good BBQ, lawn mower you pay 500.00 aud, Ace want 10-15mill.....
Gilbert I have seen made's ready-mix up north, just look for the man standing on a pile of sand, gravel & cement, they call him agitator, the other two men, back & hoe will place your concrete any were you want, they are only a small operation but very willing:highly_amused:
 

motormouth

Member
Aug 29, 2009
213
0
16
Canggu
Seems like the whole concrete original post is a ruse to market their product,before l get jumped on for suggesting this...every business loves promotion no matter how sucessful.
I'd rather listen someone like DCC who is an induvidual, than a post using the term "we" rather than "l",or is this just the company marketing department posting replies.
 
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gtrken

Active Member
Nov 4, 2007
410
183
43
66
Perth W Australia
Personally I applaud Populaire for posting on this forum. Too many times people come on here to offer advice and information to be shot down , ridiculed or just plain abused.

He ( or she ) has stated their costs to build , what they do and what they do to possibly justify the price for what they do. Certainly there are cheaper builders in Bali and in Markits and gilbert de jongs case they have shown how it can be done cheaper but unproven if it is better.

Remember that a LOT of people who frequent these forums are not necessarliy expats in the true sense of the word meaning they would LIKE to settle in Bali but not yet or they have a base in Bali but work elsewhere.

I for 1 have land in Bali which I own ( yes, I own because I have an Indonesian wife and son ) but do not live there YET !!

So for people such as Populaire who have the ability to maybe build my idea , especially as I cannot be there for the complete process then I welcome you to the forum.

As I stated before, he/she has been honest and transparent in pricing so it is my decision if I want to build with them or not.

So for those of you who are fortunate enough to be able to live in Bali, have a strong building background , can ascertain whether the local Tukang is ripping them off or not and have the time to be there for the whole build then good fortune to you.

For the rest of us it is people like Populaire who can give us options so play nice with the new poster....

Cheers
Ken
 

no.idea

Member
Feb 22, 2011
862
2
16
Sanur
Similar to Ken, I also can see both points of the above discussion. I have a construction background and the last building I was in charge of constructing in Bali was worth $7.2 million Australia Dollars. So I have been enjoying the whole thread.

However sorry Ken, your wife and son have land in Indonesia that they own. You like the rest of us have bugger all. You may have a caveat taken out against your wife to protect yourself a little but do not be lulled into thinking that you own it.
I have only lived in Indonesia for about 12 years however I have seen many westerners end up with nothing from the properties that they have "owned".
 

gtrken

Active Member
Nov 4, 2007
410
183
43
66
Perth W Australia
However sorry Ken, your wife and son have land in Indonesia that they own. You like the rest of us have bugger all. You may have a caveat taken out against your wife to protect yourself a little but do not be lulled into thinking that you own it

OK , I will rephrase it by saying I am 1 step safer to owning it than using an unknown local nominees name via a Notaris.

And after a divorce from my first wife ( Bule) I understand the meaning of " you own nothing... "

Cheers
Ken
 

kiwi

Member
Nov 8, 2010
144
0
16
Brisbane
Bathtub Mixer

I watched a bathtub dragged up a building site on an extention of a good hotel in Kuta that was used to mix the concrete in by hand for the foundations for about two months. There was a lot of reinforcing steel used but the concrete was hand mixed. Any improvement in commercial sites has to be a good thing considering the location of Bali giving rise to the odd earthquake. I miss some of the things that made Bali different the way things were approached when the modern equipment was not on the Island (like a bathtub for mixing concrete) and cutting the grass with blades rather than a lawnmower. Progress a good thing I am yet to be convinced?
 

Populaire

Member
Jun 22, 2011
71
6
8
Bali
www.populaire.com
Hi Kiwi,

Needless to say that's not ideal. When we refer to "manually mixed" we mean mixed on-site, in a cement mixer (molen). But yes, it's very common to see workers around Indonesia mixing concrete and cement plaster on pieces of scrap ply, amongst other things.

All the best..

Populaire
 

balidavo

Member
Sep 16, 2011
209
0
16
bukit bali
Yes yes Yes ..., all 100% true populaire and all your argument thereafter also , all it takes a bit of extra planning (in fact all the main work is in the planning ) and preparation and supervision , and all you say is acheivable . There is a place and nessecity for hand batched concrete pours here in Bali , but most of these suffer from poor planning and knowledge and supervision , but jobs can be utilised to make many pours happen on the same day as to take advantage of concrete pours and using the truck .
Recently , I watched (in horror) an upper deck and many columns get poured by hand mix . No vibrator , inconsistant mixes , 2 hour lunch break halfway through , dark arrived 3/4 done and panic set in ..., ring up for more people , mixes got more inconsistant rush the job more . In all the slab had more cold joints than an igloo , in time the reo bars will all rust out , leak ..., and not once after the concrete had set did anyone cover the freshly poured slab or even wet it down to slow the cure this should be done often at for at least a week or two , especially seeing as this deck was meant to be acting as a roof also.

Where there is a will , there is a way ..., when I ask indo tukung " why they do some crucial errors the way they do " ( ie; from a western educated and trained veiwpoint ) .......................................,

( note , before you tear strips from me -I always ask in a friendly and inquisitive way, and im never judgemental nor put myself on a pedestal when I ask. I learnt most of my bahasa indo from village fishermen or tukungs over the years , by asking and observing is my way of learning their ways , good or bad .) ,

......................................, The reply from the tukung is always the same - ie " thats the way we always do it " , in other words ...., they dont know any better or dont care ..., its always one or the other or both. Begitu is not the right answer unless you accept that it is , or you oblivious to know any different .

Also there is no excuse for not screeding and trowling the finished slab to a smooth finish, even to a broom finish if tiling over later . The topping they do afterwards is a complete joke , unless you like the look of cracked mortar .

Ps , I know what im talking about , as does Populaire ...,
Im a registered builder from homes to medium rise construction , with 29 years onsite experience , with the last 6 involved with civil and specialised formwork.

Hi all,

Hope this is of assistance to someone out there at some point in time.

We write this knowing that all too often, concrete quality is overlooked in Bali, and unfortunately often such is exploited by those selling you the product.

Concrete as you probably know is a combination of cement, water and aggregates (sometimes an admixture is added and sometimes flyash is added - but not often in Indonesia). The aggregates are comprised of fine aggregates (sand) and coarse aggregates (batu koral, batu cor, I.e. A bitumen or gravel equivalents). The quality of the "mud" itself ("beton") is one of the most important factors in the integrity of your structure - and when combined with steel reinforcement, you have a monolithic compound (reinforced concrete), which is absolutely, without doubt, the single most important component of your structure. Bricks in Indonesia are mere wall fill, and though they have a certain amount of compressive strength (rather little), such is unreliable and inconsistent and in no circumstances should be counted as anything other than dead weight within the context of your engineer's structural calculations.

Concrete in Indonesia is available in many mix designs and qualities. The most common characterization of these designs is by the compressive strength they are supposed to yield. In Indonesia, the colloquial classification in represented as K###, where ### is equal to the amount of load in kilograms that a single centimeter (by surface area) should be able to be loaded to by a compressive force before failing. That means that a 10cm x 10cm concrete column, poured with K300 should be able to withstand a compressive force of 30 tons (10 x 10 x 300kg) without failing. To achieve these varying grades of mixes (K250, K300, K350, K400, etc) the concrete (or "beton") supplier will adjust their mix design, and their price per cubic meter. Generally speaking, higher grades of concrete have higher volumes of cement, which is the most expensive component of the mud in conventional concrete. Other factors will also affect the volume of cement required - such as aggregate size. The smaller the coarse aggregate for example, the more cement required, as the surface areas requiring bonding increase.

There are many factors that are considered in a mix design, enough to fill several semesters at a tertiary institution, but those details are not the intention of this post.

There are certain applications of concrete whereby K250 may suffice, there are many applications whereby K400 will be required. Most applications should be at least K300. In any case, what's fair is that you are receiving the product you paid for.

Always ensure you collect samples from the pour, on site - enough to test compressive strength at 3 days, 7 days, 14 days, 21 days (optional) and 28 days (essential). Any university with a Civil Engineering Department, including Univeritas Udayana can conduct these tests for you, and you would be surprised just how cheap they are.

Important tips
- Randomly collect these samples. Drivers talk to dispatch and if they see you're regimentally collecting samples on every second truck, you may have your mixes "selectively" dispatched
- Ensure your supplier knows that they'll incur heavy penalties for test results below ordered grade
- It's not a bad practice in Indonesia to "order one grade up" - a penalty for the supplier is nice, but at the end of the day, if the concrete has been poured, you probably have to live with it. Still, apply a penalty based on the ordered grade, not the minimum grade you need
- Always remember, if they think they can cheat you, they probably will

Other tips
- Workability on site is extremely important. A good test result means little if the correct application wasn't achievable. Always perform "slump tests", and be clear with your supplier of your slump requirements. Reject loads that don't fall within range
- Have ample vibration equipment on site - ramming bamboo or steel rebar up and down in the mud is a poor substitute, and on suspended pours, a piece of 22mm rebar rammed too far can take out a chunk of formwork (messy)
- Curing is as important as the application itself. A poorly cured pour will only strengthen to a fraction of its potential. Your lab tests may be fine, but if it wasn't cured properly on site, you have compromised the integrity of your structure. Ponding works well and 28 days is a good duration for suspended slabs
- Try to leave formwork on suspended slabs in place for as long as possible. 21 days is the minimum and 28 days is safe in most applications


There are many other very important aspects of ensuring a quality end product, but hopefully the few tips above may help.

All the best & happy pouring..

Populaire..
 
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