changeing religion

[Guest]

I am moving to bali in 6 weeks and although I have been countless times am alittle freaked out about it. I am planning to get married next march but b4 doing this must convert to islam. To be honest I'm really scared about doing this as i no deep down i'm changeing for wrong reasons and it will change my life completely. I have talked to my parnter about this and he said in time you will learn about the religion and i'm sure i will but it doesnt change my feelings right now. Another issue is some friends and also some family dont like this idea of converting manily i guess because of the issues lately with musilms. I'm just tired of people with narrow minds can anyone out there share some of there expercience of changing religions

Cheers Niki

 

[Roy]

Wow! Niki, this is a really, really tough and personal issue you’ve raised! So you know, I converted to Hindu before I married my Balinese wife. For me, it was very easy as I find the Bali/Hindu approach to religion to be very much in line with my own philosophies about life. Our three sons are also of course, being raised as Bali/Hindu, and this only makes sense. In Bali, religion is at the core and fiber of Balinese culture. I like it because there is virtually no dogma…no “fire and brimstone” sermons, no mandatory confessions to any other man, etc. etc.

I know what you mean by what I call “Islamaphobia.” It ceases to amaze me how many people are so narrow minded. :evil:

If you don’t mind a few observations regarding your conversion to Islam, I’ll make a few. One, your husband will most certainly want any children you might have to be raised as Muslim. This you will need to discuss and come to an agreement. Another point is that Islam in Indonesia is considerably different than in most other parts of the Islamic world. This may be hard to fathom in the wake of the Australian Embassy bombing, but it is very true. The vast, vast majority of Indonesian Muslims are very moderate.

So, within this framework, I think you need to have very open and “all cards on the table” conversations with your fiancée on issues like, what is his expectations of your involvement in this religion, viz, will you be expected to go to mosque every day, just Fridays, or whenever, if ever you feel like it.

I’m sure this string will generate a whole lot of posts, all well intentioned and genuine. I wish you the best of luck….and leave you to follow your heart.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

I became a Hindu, and I know of some who became Muslim, all becuase of marriage..

Nothing wrong with being a Hindu, Muslim or whatever. I live in an area of Singaraja where the Muslim population easily equals the Hindu's.

We hang around. Eat, play volleybal, sing together. Go to eachothers marriages.

The muslims here are nice.

You cannot instantly become someone else. Many of us changlings are a KTP muslim or KTP Hindu.

 

[Guest]

thanks guys on your insight. Roy your right when you say he wants his children brought up as a muslim and I dont have any issues with this although I am finding it hard to come to terms with my children not growing up with santa and christmas as it was such a big thing in my life growing up. He has tried to meet me half way saying we can celebrate with my family although no xmas tree, santa etc.. So i guess thats just something I need to work through. When it comes to praying he doesnt pray the amount he is spose to do so I cant see why he would want me to do this. I guess as time goes by we will work through our differences and meet each other in the middle. I look at this as 1 more challenge which will help me grow and maybe i will find inna peace. :?:

 

[Guest]

Guest,
this is a very personal issue, on the other hand pls consider advise others can give. I have seen lately a recording that I failed yet to add to my collection, though I have seen it on screen years ago. I vowed to get the VHS for 2 $ in sale asap, it reminds me of your question. The film gives a very vivid description of what may possibly happen in a situation like this. Try amazon for it. 8)

NOT WITHOUT MY DAUGHTER

USA 1990. R: Brian Gilbert. B: Brian Gilbert, David W Rintels (after Betty Mahmoody). K: Peter Hannan. Sch: Terry Rawlings. M: Jerry Goldsmith. T Eli Yarkoni, Jim Hawkins. Ba: Anthony Pratt. A: Desmond Crowe. Ko: Nic Ede. Pg: Pathe Entertainment. P: Harry J. Ufland, Mary Jane Ufland. V.- Senator. L: 114 Min. St: 11.4.1991. D: Sally Field (Betty Mahmoody), Alfred Molina (Moody), Sheila Rosenthal (Mahtob), Roshan Seth (Houssein), Sarah Badel (Nicole), Mony Rey (Ameh Bozorg), Georges Corraface (Mohsen).

 

[Roy]

Dear Niki,

Compromise, or "meeting in the middle" is what all good marriages are about.

Your challenges, as likely viewed by your family, are at the least...something they did not expect, or consider.

You truly love this man, and you truly love your family. That's a whole lot of positive energy. Trust in that energy, and I'll bet all will be well in the end. God Bless, and continued good luck!

 

[Guest]

dont get me wrong i have learnt abit about the religion so i'm not goin in with my eyes closed although i think i remember reading that you are not allowed to change from islam to another religion. As for the other post about that movie not without my children of course i wouldnt put myself in that situation I wouldnt marry him if he was like that. I think knowing him for 6 years b4 getting into a realtion made it alittle easier and although he can be tough on some things in his religion he is in no way as tough as the stuff you would see in other counrtys or in that movie. I think roy mentioned that you will find the religion of islam in bali is alittle more low key than other places as i find its a mixture of both religion and bali tradition

 

[Tracey]

Nikki,
I also converted to Hindu before marrying my husband & our daughter also is Hindu.
In Australia, where we are currently living sometimes but very little Gede will pray in our back yard & Maddison often will join him.
He partakes in the Australian Christmas & also Easter when here, but mostly we just get together with family & eat & drink...?
When in Bali we go to all the ceremonies with his family as they are very strict with their religion, but they don't say we have to join them, we want to go.
As long as you can discuss things with your partner & can both understand this is something you have not grown up with in your life & you can explain that it is a BIG deal to you, but something you are doing because of your love for him, I think he will be happy & you will be able to ease yourself into it.
As he would certainly not expect you to change into something you have not grown up believing.
Good Luck, as Roy says with the love you have for each other & the love of both your & his family... You will do fine...
lay your cards on the table now & so no surprises later on!!!!

All the best to you both!!!!

 

[Guest]

thanks tracey

My cuz is also hindu and lives in australia with her husband there up in darwin and i find as much as he did pray in bali he laid off abit when in darwin. I can picture your husband and your daughter praying out the back i think that is so cute.

 

[drbruce]

Niki,

I converted to Islam five years ago. At that time I had been married to a Muslim woman for 9 years. When we married, she "converted" to Christianity (the conversion lasted through the ceremony) so that we could be married because I did not want to enter a religion soley on the basis of needing to so as to get married (not that there is anything wrong with that - it just wasn't what I wanted to do at the time). After our wedding, my wife went back to being a Muslim, and I continued on as I was before - without any formal religion, but with an academic interest in religion.

In 1999, I had to leave my family in Bali so that I could take a teaching job in Pakistan. I converted to Islam my first year in Pakistan, but the reason was...well, let's just say it had to do with my years of being a religious scholar as well as some decidely mystical events in my life. After I converted, I told my wife and children and they were thrilled.

Back to pre-Islam days. My wife wanted to raise the children as Muslims which I had no problem with. She wanted to jettison Christmas and Santa. We compromised and kept Santa - the religious aspects of Christmas weren't important to me anyway and there is something about Christmas trees in Bali that always seemed rather odd to me. The kids have learned something about Christianity from me - Islam's views on Christianity (that is the views in the Qu'ran, not from some ideological fanatic) are interesting, and Islamic relationships with Christianity are a fascinating topic for study; they learn about Hinduism at school and from their friends (as Bert says, relationships between Hindus and Muslims in the Singaraja area are quite friendly).

Being a Muslim in these times is not the easiest thing in the world - particularly if you are a frequent traveler and have an Islamic name. As Roy says, Islam in Indonesia is different in many aspects from Islam as practiced in Pakistan, Saudi, India, etc.

Well, I'm not sure what else to say. Have to get to teaching right now. Just discuss all this with you fiancee, and best of luck.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Guest]

Hi Niki,

I have been in exactly the same situation as you and this is just my personal opinion, you have asked for our input so here is mine.

My fiance was very moderate in his religion, or so I thought. He liked to dress fashionably and he even drank alcohol. I like you was very much in love and figured that we would find a way to work our differences out. Like you, I had a heap of little things bugging me that needed answers. Luckily for me, we had a life-changing conversation and he was totally honest with me and I discovered what he really expected of me once I converted to Islam and became his wife, it was a vast difference from what I expected. He didn't expect me to completely hide my body but he told me he preferred me to wear longer skirts or jeans, my mini skirts were out and also to wear less revealing tops. It was ok to go out to bars with my friends but only if he accompanied me. It was also ok to have a drink or two, but getting drunk was totally forbidden. He also had very strong views on my involvement with his religion and he expected me to be fully involved as a member of his religious community especially once I became a mother. I am not saying your guy is like this but I really think you have to ask the tough questions before you get married. It sounds like you are assuming a lot about what your fiance expects of you instead of just coming out and asking him, maybe you don't want to know the truth. What would happen if your marriage didn't work out, would he let you leave the country with your kids? These are big issues and if you can't meet in the middle, then what?
You say he has compromised by saying you can spend Xmas with your family but no Xmas tree or santa, so what is your family supposed to do? Do they have to pull down the tree etc when you arrive and what about friends you plan to visit? Is everyone going to go along with this? I think that its unlikely and this could cause a lot of friction between all of you
Can he accept that you are changing your religion only in order to marry him and you would prefer to stick to your own beliefs after the wedding or is that not an option? Is it possible to get married in your own country where you wouldn't have to convert?

My story ends with the fact that I have been happily married for 3 years to a gorgeous guy who loves and understands me for who I am and doesn't expect me to change a thing. I still visit my ex in Bali, he is married now also to an English girl and it breaks my heart to see how everything she says, wears, eats and does and who she does them with is subtly controlled by him.

There is nothing wrong with changing your religion to be with the one you love, but changing your life is something else entirely.

I urge you to talk this over with your fiance, do some serious soul searching and then, as Roy said, follow your heart.

Good luck

 

[Tracey]

This is extremely accurate..
I have not had to change who I am to marry Gede, I can, do & will continue to be Western & do things in a Western manner.
Thankfully my inlaws are around Westerners all the time & have other Western family ties, as Gede's Uncle married an Australian Lady & other cousin's have American, Japanese & British wives/husbands.
But I agree ask the questions before you make the decision...
If the answers are not what you want to hear then re think & re discuss your issues with them...
Good Luck!!!

 

[Guest]

thanks anon for your insight i will take that on board. I'll keep everyone updated

Thanks for everyones advice and support

 

[Sanurian]

There is a saying that "Religion is the opium of the people". There are even less gracious opinions that suggest most, if not all, religions are means of controlling people, or at the very least, a technique to make people "belong" to some group or other.

Having said that, there's another view that states "Race and Religion are the two most divisive things in the world". (Apart from issues of poverty and money, of course).

I "converted" to Islam a couple of years ago, not for religious reasons, just expediency. I consider that I was a Moslem for about 90 minutes before I saw the error of my ways and went racing back to being an "infidel" again.

Indonesia is trying to get to grips with the notion of "democracy", but the government here still orders us to belong to one of the "approved"/"sanctioned" religions. That makes little sense to me, but then, I come from a different world. Spiritual dogmas have never worked anywhere, and most likely, never will. And personally, I abhor notions that supreme beings tell a few mere mortals what they're supposed to do in life.

Mass killings of people, historically, in the name of one religion or another, seem utterly ridiculous to me. I used to know an "educated" western psychologist who was a Baptist and he really believed (probably still does), that black people don't go to "heaven".

The less that people have to do with organising, controlling and making money from "religion", the better. I refuse to be part of any contrived system of belief that has the audacity to tell me how to live the life that god gave me. Whether I can use a condom, play music or eat pork, for examples.

Certainly, we all have to live somewhere and pay due respect to the feelings (and beliefs) of the people around us. That doesn't mean we have to believe everything we're told (especially deep down in our hearts).

An ancient Arabian (?) poet\philospher once said:

"...with their teeth half-shown in causeless laughter
and their efforts at talking so sweetly uncertain...
when a child sits on his lap
a man is blessed
even by the dirt of their bodies..."

Sounds good enough for me.

I think the author was one Kali Dasa...

 

[BULBUL]

Dear Nikki,

I will give my opinion, if you don’t mind.
Please re think before you convert to Islam.
Convert to Islam means your life will change completely.

Do you know a lot about thoughts of Muslim people?
Do you know that they don’t believe equal relationship?
I agree with Anon. Your life will be controlled by husband. You have to do everything he wants.
First he will ask you wear the clothes which hide your body then someday he will ask you wear veil.

I don’t agree with Roy said “Indonesian Muslims are very moderate” and Bert said “The Muslims here are nice”. They are nice because they are minority in Bali.

I don’t believe you can celebrate X-mas with your family. Do you know that they don’t say “Merry X-mas” when we celebrate X-mas?

I hang around with them so I know how their life and thought.

Finally, I just can say hope you can make the right decision. And hope your partner is different with other Muslim people, very, very, very moderate and will let you continue to be Western and do things in a Western manner like Tracey’s husband

 

[Roy]

Well BulBul, that is certainly a different opinion. I noted that you are posting from Surabaya, and I understand that your view point might be largely framed by your experiences there.

True enough, in Bali, Muslims are a minority. They are in other islands of Indonesia as well, where Christianity is dominant. However, my opinion that most Muslims in Indonesia are moderate is not formed from living in Bali, but rather almost exclusively doing business with Muslims, as well as Christians from all over Indonesia. Many have become trusted friends, and we spend a lot of time talking culture, religion and social values. I have yet to meet a Muslim man here who thinks he dominates his wife. In fact, as for most of us, it is usually the other way around! :shock:

I also must admit that my opinion of Islam, formed over years of living on Bali has also been formed from watching Indonesian TV…particularly the cinetrons, (or soap operas) that my Balinese wife so enjoys, as well as the advertisements. Trust me, one would never see such programming, or commercials in state owned television stations anywhere else in the Arab world. There is plenty of "body showing" on state owned Indonesian TV coming out of Jakarta, that's for sure!

It is a “bit off the top” don’t you think to make such unequivocal statements as:

“Convert to Islam means your life will change completely.”

“Do you know that they don’t believe equal relationship?”

“Your life will be controlled by husband. You have to do everything he wants.”

“First he will ask you wear the clothes which hide your body then someday he will ask you wear veil.”

Mind you, I am not denying that there are very conservative Muslims in Indonesia who would almost certainly fit your description. With this in mind, I go back to my original reply to Niki, which was for her, and her “mate to be” to lay down all their cards on the table and have a full agreement of what is expected of her and him, in their marriage.

 

[drbruce]

Well Bulbul,

I can't say anything about your personal experience, but as a Muslim who has lived in Indonesia since 1989, I found your characterizations of Muslim far from fitting with my own personality/behavior as a Muslim male and from my interactions with other Muslim males in Bali, Java, Papua and Sumbawa. I actually had a good laugh thinking about either me or my friends trying to dominate their wives. Even if we wanted to, we wouldn't get very far. I've been living on a Muslim majority island for the past 16 months, and I have yet to see the behavior that you mention.

Further, I've had a considerable amount of experience dealing with spousal abuse when I lived in the States, and these folks were Christians. That doesn't mean that I think Christians are misogynistic brutes.

 

[Roy]

Off topic Dr. Bruce..."ma'af" but did you get the CV I sent for Wayan Rackman? Just curious...and feel free to e-mail reply. Best, Roy

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Had to look that up...

misogynistic = characterized by a hatred of women

 

[Tracey]

I have dealth with Spousal abuse also in Aust...
Almost all were Christians or atheists!!!

Niki, basically you need to discuss it with your future partner & then , only you are the one that can make that decision...

But best to make that decision once you have answers to ALL the questions that you have!!!

Best of luck & good Wishes!