changeing religion

[Guest]

Niki

I have only recently found this forum and your story is interesting to say the least. People have offered good advice to you and from your recent posts it seems as if you are handling your situation well.

Could I ask you how it was that you first made the inquiry on this forum?
Was it at the suggestion of your partner, in order for you to gain insights from expats who may have been in a similar situation to you?

If it was then I think he genuinely understands the difficulty and possible fears that may have been going on inside your head, and understandably so given the controversial times we live in with regard to muslim extremists etc. Dont get me wrong I am not putting him in that category, but if he encouraged you to particpate in this forum then I believe he truly has your interests at heart.

Could you get him to also post and give his perspective.

I hope that you will both be happy together and your union will be one of the success stories we can read about. I look forward to hearing more from you as your journey continues. Kind regards, Jeni

 

[Roy]

Well "said" Jeni. I think most all of us share your kind thoughts and wishes for Niki.

For me, my only regret in marrying my Balinese wife Eri, and moving to Bali some six years ago...is that I didn't do it sooner. Then again, it's likely that I was incapable of making this transition any sooner in my life.

In the end, I guess it matters more the “doing it” than when it is done.

 

[mimpimanis]

Hi Bulbul

I am afraid I have to disagree with you.

You say the muslims in Bali are moderate & nice because they are in the minority.

Well I live in Lombok which is 90% muslim & my husband & I are the only non muslims living in our village & I can tell you that even the most religious person in our village, I would still say is moderate! And most are very nice! Like any village it has its good & bad but differenes are nothing to do with religion.

Not one woman in our village wears a veil.

Nor do any of the many western women I know here that are married to muslims.

Mimpi

 

[Roy]

Hear hear Mimpi, and good for you. I do business every day with Muslims from all over the Indonesian archipelago. Many of my closest expat friends here in Ubud are married to Muslim women, or men.

I hate, and despise this current trend of what I call Islamaphobia. Every day I find that I have far more in common with my Islamic friends than differences.

When my “brother” Matt died here in Bali almost three years ago, fifteen Muslim friends from Sulawesi and Sumatra attended his cremation ceremony. They traveled all that way, just to show up, and pay their respects.

Racism or prejudice, on any level is a scourge of humanity. The path towards enlightenment has no room for such ignorance.

 

[Guest]

Could not have agree with you more on the last sentence or have said it better either Roy.

Regs Sparky

 

[Guest]

Well I have converted and I was so scared as I didnt no what to expect or what to do but it all turned out to be fine I said 2 sentences and signed a bit of paper. My mother and father in law were witnesses which was great. Thank you angie for what you wrote above meant alot to me and wahyu. Hey Tracey it turns out that wahyu knows dede he was gonna meet up when wahyu was in bali but didnt have enough time small world hey. Congrats about the new one on the way

 

[Guest]

I have found this site recently, it is nice to know that expat and foreigner who married balinnes care about bali. sorry its out of topic,but I have imformation about hinduism that maybe help to understan more about hinduism.

http://www.free-definition.com/hinduism.html
http://www.atributetohinduism.com

 

[Roy]

Nice web sites, English Made, but it is essential to understand that Hindu dari Bali is not the same as in India.

Aside from Fred Eiseman's monumental work, BALI, SEKALA & NISKALA, or Bali, seen and unseen, I do not know of any attempt, or success at defining the nuances that can help us understand Bali/Hindu as well as he did.

Truly a monumental work, even Fred would admit that within Bali itself, among the various regencies and villages, variations on what he writes can easily be found.

 

[Guest]

you are right roy, hindu in bali is deferent than hindu in india but to understand hindu in bali we have to understand hinduism in a biger picture, without it , I think almost imposible to have deep understanding about hindu di bali

 

[Roy]

you are right roy, hindu in bali is deferent than hindu in india but to understand hindu in bali we have to understand hinduism in a biger picture, without it , I think almost imposible to have deep understanding about hindu di bali

Maybe yes, and maybe no. For certain, most all Balinese are totally unaware of Hindu dari India. For that matter, most all Balinese are unaware of their own history in any regard.

The "historical record" as we westerners define it, is without meaning to the Balinese.

Most Balinese will attribute their background to the Majapahit era of central and eastern Java, 13th to 15th century. The influx of Islam during this period eventually led the Majapahit to flee to Bali. At that time and before, as the great "empires" of Java flourished, the Kediri, Singosari, and Majapahit, Buddhism was as equal in the "religious" equation.

The five major temples of Bali still have special areas devoted to Buddha. The largest Buddhist temple on earth is just outside of Jogyakarta.

I understand your premise, but I disagree with it. Hindu/Bali is unique. It is a mix of India Hindu, Buddhism, and still to this day, animism. I should add a fourth ingredient into this mixture, and it would be Islam.

 

[Guest]

as a balinese I am aware the problem we have regarding our understanding of our religion,history and step we take to safe our culture for the future. Hindu has shaped bali in every aspek infact created bali as we know today( selain kuta).
The rishi came to bali before majapahit era with couple thousend follower sattled in bali spread hinduism and build great tample call pura besakih and weda was the based for everyday life. Hindu religion call sanatana dharma in weda its mean the eternal way or the road to moksa (union atman and brahman), there are many way, one off them is bhakti yoga (devotion).as you know in sekala niskala has made hindu di bali deferent than hindu di india on the base of place and time etc. so mebhakti or sembahhyang that we do in everyday life,evey upacara ,odalan is bhakti yoga in balinese way, realisation of individual soul (atman)and the soul of the univers (brahman)and to unite them using bhakti /devotion way is the purpuse of upacara and odalan di pura, if we lose this spirit I am afried Nyepi,galungan ,kuningan and every odalan di pura will become like chrismas in western world the day for shoping and national economi forecas.
the uniquenes of bali rooted in hinduism,budhism and animism, I dont see islam in it .

 

[made marko]

~~~)}OM AWIGNAMASTU{(~~~

 

[Roy]

I dont see islam in it .

Made di Bali,

That was a great post. Relating further to my comments of Islam and Hindu/Bali, I should have been more specific, as what I really mean is that some similarities can be found.

As a little background, I recently purchased a very extensive library of Javanese manuscripts, most from Java Timor and all dating from the 17th to mid 19th century. I’ve had several Islamic scholars over to study and help translate a number of these manuscripts. This is a daunting task as a variety of languages, viz, Malay, Javanese and Arabic, as well as scripts, including Ancient Javanese, Jawi and Arabic are used throughout these manuscripts, sometimes mixed within the same book.

Some of these books concern ancient Islamic rites, rituals and ceremonies, as they developed in Java. Some of these rites, rituals and ceremonies are about exact to some still used in Bali by Bali/Hindu today. For example, the various oton ceremonies for three, six and twelve month old babies is very similar, including the slaughter of two pigs for boys, and one for girls…(but goats are used in lieu of pigs). Also similar is that the baby’s feet not touch the ground prior to the three month oton…and there are more.

Another almost identical ceremony is the placenta ceremony for the newborn performed by the father. Reading the description for this ceremony, the washing of the placenta, the burial in a secret location within the compound/house grounds, even the inclusion of “items of amusement” for the “brother or sister” is remarkably the same as read in this ancient Islamic text as the very ceremony I myself performed (under my father in law’s watchful eye) three times for my boys.

Of course, this begs a huge question…viz, which comes first? In other words, did these ceremonies work their way into Islam as Islam became more and more of an influence in Java? Or, were these worked into Bali/Hindu through Islam? A difficult question to answer with certainty, but given the unquestionable evolution of Bali/Hindu, it seems highly improbable, in fact highly unlikely, that some amount of cross-culturalization did not occur.

 

[Margriet]

I'm sorry if my post doesn't really make sense after the last posts, but that's because I didn't read all four pages yet, but I really want to ask something here.

My boyfriend is muslim and I'm a Christian...we're both not really strong believers and to become married I would change my religion immediately if that's required...but not to muslim. Nothing against muslims, but I don't feel so comfortable with that thought. To change to Hindu wouldn't be any problem for me. but for my boyfriend it is. For him it's not so easy to change religion, because then his family and friends won't come to his wedding. I can understand that too.....so, now we have thought of the next construction.
What we would like to do is to get married by the two of us in Singapore and after we come back we want to approve it for both the Indonesian as the Dutch law. When that all is arranged we want to "marry" for the other people by giving a really nice ceremony.
Did anybody do it like this? Do you think it's possible, or does anybody have information about it?

 

[Angie]

Hi Margriet,

Maybe I can answer your questions regarding the legalities. I am a little unsure what religion you plan to change to so you can be married. Do you mean your boyfriend will convert to Christianity? Or do you intend to both stay as you are and be married in Singapore? For your marriage to be legally recognised in Bali then you must be of the same religion. What sort of ceremony were you planning to have for your guests, a Muslim one? I may be wrong but I don't think that will be possible if you are both not Muslim even if you are just having a "fake" wedding. A lot of Muslim weddings are quiet affairs held at home and then guests are invited to the reception so you could do it that way. Really your major problem is having the wedding legalised in Indonesia if you or your boyfriend aren't both of the same religion. To be legally married in Bali you must be either Hindu, Muslim, Christian Protestant, Christian Catholic or Buddhist. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Guest]

I think someone mixed up here.
Islam like other abrahamic religion was created from event that happen in particular time, its historic base religon, the rule/law of islam are fixed in that particular time, if you strict moslem,you are going back to muhamad time.

there are two kind of islam in indonesia that I know
muhamadiah and nahdlatul ulama (NU)
muhamadiah is islam that follow everything from quran and islamic law (strict islam).
NU is we call it islam traditional, moslem that still using their hindu ancester ritual and culture, so everything that you have mantioned were originated from hindu, Islam came to indonesia without this kind of ritual and its forbiden under islamic law.

in hindu we have yadnya
Dewa yadnya : upacara/ceremony for god, like odalan di pura.
Pitra yadnya : upacara for ancester,dead one, ngaben
manusia yadnya: upacara for peoples/the living one, this upacara is upacara that you mantion, from before baby born(pregnancy), tiga bulanan (three month ceremony)naming baby, otonan (six month ceremony) until adulthood (potong gigi),get marrige and die all this stage have upacara/ceremony.
bhuta yadnya :upacara for bhuta kala (under world),any offering that you put on the ground is for bhuta kala.

 

[Margriet]

Hi Angie,

thanks for your quick reply...but are you sure? I just read your answer to my boyfriend and he says he already asked the KCS and they said it's possible without having same religion, if you are already legally married in another country (which would be singapore for us) but because I want to be 100% sure before we do this I'm looking for people who have experience with this situation.
About the ceremony (fake wedding) we're planning it's a kind of ceremony foreigners also can have when they want to get married in Bali or something. many people from holland want to get married there, but they don't need to get legally married because they already do that in holland. I read at least on an internet site it's possible to have just a nice ceremony which looks like a wedding ceremony but that it's just not legal. I think his family can accept that, because the main part is that he doesn't have to change his religion.

 

[Guest]

margriet
Angie is right you must be the same religion in indo to be 100% legal that is why i have just converted to muslim. I would really double check with KCS as yeah they say things are possible and then they change their mind. Margriet can i ask why you are not comfortable with that thought to convert to muslim? Is it because of what has happened around the world? I didnt want to convert either maybe deep down for that reason because as you said you would change to hindu with no problem. If your boyfriend and you arnt strong believer then it really wouldnt be a huge thing if you had to convert just for the family sake and to make things easier for you wedding. Its really not that bad anyway double check with KCS
niki

 

[Angie]

Hi Margriet,

Sorry I have been away from the forums due to Xmas. I think it is best if I give you the name of my contact at the KCS. She speaks enough English for you to be able to explain your situation. She is very thorough and will give you the correct advice. Maybe it is a good idea for you and your fiance to make an appointment to see her together. I will send her details to you via a private message.

When you wish to organise the "wedding" ceremony for family in Bali, please contact me and if you wish, I can help you put together a ceremony to suit your needs.

Regards

Angie

 

[Ziggy]

Reading all these comments its amazes me with the amount of worries and "politics" involved with changing religion!
I am not religious at all and think to myself after reading all the comments here that I have it very easy! I just live life and try to get on with everyone, wether they be muslim, christian, black, blue , yellow etc..etc As I have said ...for me life with out religion is very uncomplicated!

I dont mean to offend anyone because as i have said everyone should be allowed to do whatever they like as long as it doesnt affect anyone else in a negative way!