Are the Gods Color-blind?

[Sergio]

SG, your idea of religion being about love and peace is a very noble one, unfortunately that is not always the case. "Islam is peace" is a classic misconception made by even many Muslims themselves. Hinduism and Christianity are no different. The truth is that there is a time for everything and even in religion there is a time to kill. So you may not have as much tolerance for religious beliefs as you think.

We are talking about animal sacrifice for religious beliefs. Compared to eating meat and killing thousands more animals every second across the world for "needless" human consumption and products, I find the later a MUCH more serious of an offense to animals! I don't think I need to remind anyone here of how chickens (for example) are farmed here in the "educated" and "developed" world (I only say this because that's how I hear Indonesia as being referred to... uneducated and undeveloped). As far as education goes, we are always so eager to teach/preach/push our ways and values on others and yet so closed to the ways and values of others. Such as their religious beliefs and practices.

 

[milan]

Sergio writes:

SG, your idea of religion being about love and peace is a very noble one, unfortunately that is not always the case. "Islam is peace" is a classic misconception made by even many Muslims themselves. Hinduism and Christianity are no different. The truth is that there is a time for everything and even in religion there is a time to kill. So you may not have as much tolerance for religious beliefs as you think.

We are talking about animal sacrifice for religious beliefs. Compared to eating meat and killing thousands more animals every second across the world for "needless" human consumption and products, I find the later a MUCH more serious of an offense to animals! I don't think I need to remind anyone here of how chickens (for example) are farmed here in the "educated" and "developed" world (I only say this because that's how I hear Indonesia as being referred to... uneducated and undeveloped). As far as education goes, we are always so eager to teach/preach/push our ways and values on others and yet so closed to the ways and values of others. Such as their religious beliefs and practices.

Well put, Sergio!

We're back to dogs again... :roll: :lol:
Chilli, I'm going to get my head bitten off as you put it... :lol:

 

[SG]

SG, your idea of religion being about love and peace is a very noble one, unfortunately that is not always the case. "Islam is peace" is a classic misconception made by even many Muslims themselves. Hinduism and Christianity are no different. The truth is that there is a time for everything and even in religion there is a time to kill. So you may not have as much tolerance for religious beliefs as you think.

Sorry Sergio I don't accept this and I think you miss the point. Firstly you are misrepresenting what I said. At no time did I say religion was "about love and peace". I know that, and that is the issue at hand. Your argument seems to be that it is written therefore we must accept it. Thankfully the likes of William Wilbourforce, a religious man, didn't follow your philosophy, he found it as morally abhorrent as I'm afraid I do.

I'm gonna start a religion, with myself as a the prophet, and one of our core beliefs is child sacrifice...it's in our book which I'm writing. Ok with you? There is a 'time to kill' surely.

Much great evil has been done in the name of religion, I simply don't find it as easy to justify as you seemingly do, and to use the moral equivalence of meat eating to justify it doesn't work for me. I made it very clear earlier on in the thread that I wasn't making that judgement myself.

My issue is that of dogs being stolen, sold to, I guess, priests, for sacrifice. There are multiple layers of harm in that which you seem to be sidestepping by saying 'it's religion'.

 

[tintin]

My original point had NOTHING to do with either the question of eating animals or any other living thing or the result of a "Western based fallacy." Nor did it have anything to do with the (mis)treatment of animal. Sergio is the only one to have really picked up the jest of my original post (unwittingly, I believe), which I thought would have been made obvious by my attempt at some humour in my second post (and SG somehow brought it back on track). Sergio's statement hits the proverbial nail on the head

However, if they [the sacrifices] are in any way shape of form the will of God/s, who are you to change them? You would then in essence be playing God,

clearly demonstrating the irrationality of humanity (and that of Sergio's, it seems).

I guess I will have to spell it out a little:

- Which God(s)?

- What "will of God(s)"?

- Why would God(s) request the sacrifice of some of his(their) own creatures in the first place?

- How did the priest performing the useless sacrifices get the "recipe" of how many dogs of any given color? While we are at it, why not sacrifice the priest himself?

- Forgetting for a moment about the dogs, why drown buffalos, pigs, etc, in the waters of Lake Batur? Or why the huge hecatombs of all sorts of animals, large and small, that takes place periodically at Pura Besakih? Has there ever been any proof that any of these mambo-jumbos ever affected any course of events on Earth?

Etc, etc…

But rest assure, Bali lovers, that my posts here had nothing to with singling out the Balinese people, while proclaiming some Western superiority. After all, 70% of the supposed "enlightened" Americans believe in the Devil and in miracles. But I guess that you should have gotten my point by now … :roll:

 

[BaliLife]

I'm with you SG.

I think I've made my views on religion known on the forum.

I am in Thailand at the moment, and I must say, never have I seen such an amazing, peaceful, culturally rich yet harmonious integration of religion into daily life and society. I am sure there are problems as there are anywhere, but this is the first time I've observed a society where the detrimental effects of religion haven't slapped me in the face.

I maintain my view of religion, but as somebody told me last night, buddhism is a way of life - not a religion as they don't believe in a supernatural god.

Rest assured I'm not rushing off to become a monk, but I am 100% of the view that all other religions should be looking to buddhist leaders asking them for advice on how to remove the thorn they've stuck up the arsehole of the world.

Big salute to Thailand and a bigger solute to Buddhism.

Ct

 

[tintin]

Buddhism, starting as a way of life, soon deteriorated into a religion. It happened way back when some smart asses, later called "priests," decided that there was some power to be had, if only they could invent some dieties to scare people with. They did and the Mahayana form of Buddhism was born, with all its divinities. The closest to the original form of Buddhism, Theravada, is practiced in Burma, Thailand, Sri Lanka, among others.

 

[milan]

I'm a Christian yet I embrace Buddhism philosophy which is basically believing in the Law of Nature but in my case, God, as well.

 

[BaliLife]

Well that's where I am at the moment tin, in Thailand. I don't know what's original and what's not - all I know is I don't hate what I see, as I often do elsewhere. In fact I rather like what I see - a very good balance and integration of life and religion..

Ct

 

[Roy]

“Animal welfare is a problem here (in Indonesia) and needs to be addressed. And education and law go hand in hand on that.”

Back to your discussion Simon, (as discussing religion is pointless), I think it is worthwhile to point out that in recent years Indonesia has made some great progress with animal welfare, particularly along the lines of protecting endangered species. Indonesia is a member of CITES, which is the United Nations Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. Indonesia is the 48 member country out of 173 current member countries and has been since 1978, only three years after the UN started this convention. In fact, Indonesia became a member of CITES before the following countries did: Italy, Israel, Japan, Philippines, Austria, Thailand, Belgium, The Netherlands, New Zealand (which became a CITES member 11 years after Indonesia, in 1989), etc. etc.

Interestingly enough, in the same newsletter that was quoted in the starting post of this string, there is another article which is in stark contrast regarding the arrest of a Balinese maker of turtle satay:

http://www.balidiscovery.com/messages/message.asp?Id=4649

Indonesia’s efforts to protect such endangered species as the Orangutan, White Rhino and Tiger have been remarkable and positive results measured by increased populations have already been noted.

My only point here is that the initial post on this string obviously created a fury of emotions, which is understandable. Further progress in the public’s attitude about animals is certainly desirable and most worthy of continued efforts, but there have been improvements, and so I offer this as only another sign of movement in that direction.

As for the religious aspects of animal sacrifice within the Balinese culture/religion, any discussion of that is pointless IMHO, especially when those who want to discuss it have already proclaimed themselves as atheists here on this forum. Frankly, I’d much rather try to convince a die hard Republican to vote for Obama as the next US President! Cheers!

If the original poster who brought this religious issue up is serious about wanting to gain the knowledge, then perhaps on his next visit to Bali he will call on any one of the many high priests here in Bali, who love being visited by foreign guests, and raise the topic.

 

[tintin]

If the original poster who brought this religious issue up is serious about wanting to gain the knowledge, then perhaps on his next visit to Bali he will call on any one of the many high priests here in Bali, who love being visited by foreign guests, and raise the topic.

I am indeed eager still to increase my knowledge every day on all sorts of different topics, and I do. However, given that, by definition, high priests (in any religion) have irrational beliefs, I am afraid it would be a total waste of my time of which I do not have much to spare. Like we say in France, I might as well "pisser dans un violon." (piss in a violin).

 

[tintin]

Roy,

You write, obviously wearing your rose-colored glasses

Indonesia’s efforts to protect such endangered species as the Orangutan, White Rhino and Tiger have been remarkable and positive results measured by increased populations have already been noted.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for the orangutans, according to what I hear from the WWF.

Des Moines, Iowa – July 2, 2008 – Endangered wild orangutan (Pongo spp.) populations are declining more sharply in Sumatra and Borneo than previously estimated, according to new findings published this month by Great Ape Trust of Iowa scientist Dr. Serge Wich and other orangutan conservation experts in Oryx – The International Journal of Conservation.

I have been at Camp Leakey, in the Tanjung Puting National Park, Kalteng, many times, which is one of the several places in Indonesia where international organizations are desperately trying to protect the few remaining orangutans. But how can they be protected when the logging goes on unabated in a national park, which is supposed to be protected from exploitation. There is even a rail road which has been built to facilitate the transport of the illegally harvested logs, besides the already large amount coming down the Sekonyer River. How can someone build a whole railroad system in a protected area without the Government official knowing it? Would you believe corupsi? :evil: :evil:

As for the White Rhino (!?), well, I don't believe they are in any danger in Indonesia, for the good reason that there are no such animal in the country. :lol:

 

[Roy]

As for the White Rhino (!?), well, I don't believe they are in any danger in Indonesia, for the good reason that there are no such animal in the country.

Over here, the Sumatran Rhino is often generically called a white rhino. It has been over-hunted, in the past as trophies and more recently for its highly valued horn used by some cultures as an aphrodisiac.

Anyway, I'll take my "rose colored" glasses any day over the cynical viewpoint you often project.

“I am indeed eager still to increase my knowledge every day on all sorts of different topics, and I do. However, given that, by definition, high priests (in any religion) have irrational beliefs, I am afraid it would be a total waste of my time of which I do not have much to spare. Like we say in France, I might as well "pisser dans un violon." (piss in a violin).”

If that’s the case, then why even bring up a topic involving religious beliefs and faith in the first place? IMHO, your posts on this string are contradictory. On one hand you ask questions, and then you say, it’s pointless, or like "pisser dans un violon." If your time is so precious, then why waste it raising topics for discussion that you admit you have no real interest in either learning about, or pursuing? :roll:

 

[Sergio]

I agree with Roy,

To challenge one's belief is fine, its even good to challenge your own beliefs. But why ask questions, tintin, that you don't want to waste your time finding the answer for? It seems your questions are loaded only to ridicule, and not to understand.

My intentions were not to convince, rationalize, condone or support the belief of any religion. And obviously any belief is irrational to those who don't share that same belief.

As for religious tolerance, and to all who agreed with these comments:

I'd like to sacrafice a few of the ones rounding up and killing these dogs - I'd sacrafice them, and then wipe my arse with their corpses.

Is it really tolerance if you say you want to kill those who practice their beliefs? (even when not meant literally)

Religion aside, I come back to my first reply to this thread, which asks; why the out rage about a dog? I didn't here any of you express your disapproval of the Balinese sacrificing a pig. Of course I fully understand that dogs are very lovable animals, but what makes it's live worth more than the life of a pig? Don't the same principals about a dog also apply to a pig, and yes, all the animals we kill for food and other products? And if there is going to be any finger pointing, why are we not start with these millions of animals that are being killed for unnecessary human consumption and products?

Anyways, I've enjoyed this little exchange, I admit I like to play devils advocate at times. Definitely no hard feelings here.

Cheers!

Sergio

 

[chilli]

Hello Sergio,

Nice to meet you !

I just want to say that i agree with you about the pig versus the dog etc, that is why i have been a vegetarian for 32 years. Only this way can i take away one little piece of suffering from the animals. if only me, then one pig is saved per year, 50 chickens, 6 rabbits, etc etc.

anyway, thankyou for your thoughts about it .

p.s you have a beaaaaauuuutiful baby .

 

[Roy]

“It seems your questions are loaded only to ridicule, and not to understand.”

That’s exactly what was on my mind Sergio, but I was trying to maintain some decorum, and not go off on Tintin, as I have in the past...usually resulting in at least a yellow card, if not a red card from head referee, Bert.

The truth is well documented in the archives. That truth is that Tintin has often ridiculed Balinese temple and religious practices, and to the point that it has alienated at least one prior regular Balinese poster that I personally know.

But hey! I am not here to criticize. However, if one takes the time to review this past forum history, two elements are very clear:

One is that nobody has ever tried to convert him, and two, he is always the one to bring the topic of Balinese religion up in the most unfavorable light possible. Personally, I have no problem with you (Tintin) or BaliLife being self declared atheists, but where do you, or anyone else, get off thinking it is fine to ridicule and disparage those others with firm beliefs?

Yes Tintin, it is impolite to speak about you, as I am doing, while you are “in the room” and within ear shot. I apologize for that. But, what’s really up with this?

As I know the Balinese, and I know them very, very well, they are all more than happy and willing to openly discuss and present their points of view, their take on religion, and the role that Bali/Dharma has on their lives....BUT they have dignity and self respect and WILL NOT face religious ridicule, which is tantamount to religious persecution, at the hands of anyone.

It would seem to me that anyone who has spent any quality time here in Bali would immediately recognize and appreciate that very basic human right.

This is what you just recently wrote:

“I guess I will have to spell it out a little:

- Which God(s)?

- What "will of God(s)"?

- Why would God(s) request the sacrifice of some of his(their) own creatures in the first place?

- How did the priest performing the useless sacrifices get the "recipe" of how many dogs of any given color? While we are at it, why not sacrifice the priest himself?

- Forgetting for a moment about the dogs, why drown buffalos, pigs, etc, in the waters of Lake Batur? Or why the huge hecatombs of all sorts of animals, large and small, that takes place periodically at Pura Besakih? Has there ever been any proof that any of these mambo-jumbos ever affected any course of events on Earth? Etc, etc…”

In response, I suggested that you consult a high priest of Bali who would be in a far better position than anyone I know of on this forum to answer those questions. To that you responded,

“However, given that, by definition, high priests (in any religion) have irrational beliefs, I am afraid it would be a total waste of my time of which I do not have much to spare.”

IMHO, it is self-evident, and by your own words, that your intentions are to at least ridicule, if not outright disparage the Balinese religious beliefs and culture. But please, if I am wrong, show me how I am wrong, as I would rather be wrong about this than right.

 

[BaliLife]

Is it really tolerance if you say you want to kill those who practice their beliefs? (even when not meant literally)

Hi serg, I don't have 'religious tolerance' per se. I have to respect a law that says people have a right to believe, but not when it becomes worthless sacrafices of living creatures to appease a ficticious being. And I did mean it literally.

I'm not attacking you, or your posts, I'm just expressing my view.

Roy, I know Bali belongs to the Balinese, but if they're going to open their society to non-balinese as they've been doing for many decades, then they need to be prepared to face scrutinization. Let me ask how the following differs.

John's a Cowboyan - he belongs to the 'Alrathian Cowboy Congregation' of Atlanta, Georgia. His belief and that of his congregation is that he has the right to kill one person in Georgia every month, so long as he shoots them between the eyes with his revolver while he has them tied to a post with his lassoo. Is this wrong? It is his belief and that of his Congregation?

I know, you might say, well a law says that one can't kill a human being; but just because Indonesia (including Bali) is too primitive of a nation to have basic animal rights laws in place, does that make it ok?

Ct

 

[Roy]

You’re entirely missing the boat BaliLife and you are also comparing oranges to apples. You write,

“Roy, I know Bali belongs to the Balinese, but if they're going to open their society to non-balinese as they've been doing for many decades, then they need to be prepared to face scrutinization.”

I’m not sure what you mean by “scrutinization” but if that includes making changes because of Western morals, mores, sensitivities, etc. than I could not disagree with you more. Moreover, to the extent that “scrutinization” should also include or allow for ridicule of the Balinese culture, especially on a public forum called the Bali Expat Forum, then again, I could not disagree more.

Your comparison of Balinese religious practices, which does include animal sacrifice, to human sacrifice makes absolutely no sense...it is apples and oranges. It merits no comment.

You write, “Indonesia (including Bali) is too primitive of a nation to have basic animal rights laws in place” but you are 100% wrong as I have already proven by way of Indonesia’s willing (and early on) participation in CITES.

Forgive me for being “testy” about this, but when Tintin comes on here and publicly ridicules Balinese cultural practices, then he is ridiculing my wife, my sons and my entire family. I don’t take to that very well, because in the culture I was raised I was taught to be tolerant and respectful of other cultures. This all boils down to a simple matter of manners and common courtesy.

This topic of animal sacrifice in the Bali religion could have been handled in an open and objective manner, but it wasn’t. Moreover, the original poster made it perfectly clear that he had no interest in pursing this subject in any other manner than to ridicule it. That is painfully obvious, and it also stinks! That’s my view, plain and simple. Cheers, and no worries, as I’ll still buy you a drink at Nuri’s one of these days. You’re still young, so there is still hope for you. The "other guy" is simply hopeless!

 

[tintin]

Roy,

First, congratulations are in order for not getting even a yellow card from Bert in your rebuff of my postings. It would seem you are getting wiser in your old days.

Second, it would have been nice, just for once, if you had admitted that you were wrong and had apologized to the present audience for misleading them regarding the orangutans, "white" rhinos, and tiger populations being regenerated through the Indonesian Government efforts. The information I keep getting from the WWF (World Wildlife Federation) indicates the contrary. By the way, I assume you were referring to the Sumatran Tiger, given that the last Javan Tiger, in Ujung Kulon, disappeared in the 1980s, and his cousins in Bali were extinct in the 1940s or 1950s.

But I thank you for bringing up this particular problem of extinction of some species, as this is quite relevant to my present comments, since this is but another example, less controversial I must say, of the irrational behavior of most of humanity, in this case the humanity being mostly Chinese. Indeed, the rhinos are being hunted to extinction in Africa as well as in Sumatra for their horns which, when grounded supposedly possess sexual power. In the case of the tigers, it is their bones which are valued for their supposedly medicinal properties against, among others, arthritis and rheumatism. All this in spite of the fact that these asserted properties have been scientifically investigated and shown to be without any bearing. So, here is another totally irrational human behavior for which animals are being uselessly sacrificed.

Coming to the purpose of my first post, this forum is a Bali Forum and as such should discuss topics pertinent to Bali. My purpose in bringing the irrational practice of animal sacrifices in Bali was not exactly to convert you and everyone else to atheism, but to make you, against all hopes, and everybody else stop, think, and reflect on this totally useless and cruel practice, which result in unnecessary suffering and death of living creatures.

Contrary to Roy's claims, if one would want to waste his/her time and look in the Forum archives, one would find ONLY ONE long, winded, and heated string on the topic of Agama Bali, hardly the "always" or "often" that you claim. I guess Roy is just confused about the many arguments we have had in the past on many other subjects.

I have been involved with Indonesia and Bali in particular since 1984, first as a tourist, and since 1989 somewhat more deeply involved, so much so that I wanted to move in permanently in 1998. Circumstances beyond my control prevented me to do so: c'est la vie. It then should be obvious to anyone of goodwill to realize that this wouldn't exactly be one of the aspirations of someone who despises Bali and the Balinese.

Finally, as for my consulting high priests who supposedly could explain their belief system, give me at least this credit, which is that most likely I have already done that during my many years in Bali. No, I was not interested in being converted to yet another religion: on that point I made up my mind long time ago. I just wanted to know more about Bali and the Balinese, and one cannot know the Balinese if one does not know about the Agama Bali that regulate every minute of their days.

Sergio,

Regarding your point about "why dogs and not pigs," I agree with you completely: any living being has a right to life. Jacks Daniels' article had to do with dogs being sacrificed, so I took that as an example. But, as I mentioned in one of my posts, I was witness to the sacrifice of a cow (or was it an ox) and several pigs at Lake Batur. They were thrown overboard to drown and believe me, it was just sickening. I am sure life in Bali or on the Globe didn't change an iota after these useless sacrifices. :evil: :evil:

 

[chilli]

You’re still young, so there is still hope for you. The "other guy" is simply hopeless! [/quote]


Roy,
Ive noted in many of your posts you are full of IMHO, but you don’t allow much two-way for others to have their own “IMHO”.

You react (obviously you are sensitive to anything about Bali being challenged) but you react with insults. Are insults necessary to get your point across ? Is it your way or the highway type of attitude that you live by?

From what I read in Tin Tins original post I felt an honest question from him, a question which to me made logical sense.

In no way do I disrespect Bali, its people nor its culture. But the animal sacrifice does not make any sense.

I don’t care if the priests think that is fine, I don’t care if the pope apologises for his priests who comit pedophelia. I care that action is taken to stop pain and killing to any living creature.

The world tries to do something to help and make aware the fact that women are
circumsized in a certain country (if this is that countries culture) does this mean we must understand it ?

It has to do with our own consciousness, to have empathy with others, (animals and humans, the planet, all living things.)

How can we have empathy for the animals if we people just keep shooting sh#t and insults at each other on this forum , having no empathy for eachother ?

 

[BaliLife]

Evolution of everything, including religions is a reality of the world. Just as many churches have realized that projecting hatred towards and ousting homosexuals is about as jesus-like as pricking an infant with a needle for fun, I'm sure that one day this practice will end in Bali, and perhaps a symbollic substitute can be made. It would be nice if this happened sooner rather than later.

A colleague of mine in Bali had his Labrador stolen from his house in Canggu about 2-3 weeks ago. He's very torn up about it.

Roy, I have an uncle who took over my grandma's farm when I was a child. She moved to Geraldton, and my uncle, rather than looking for an alternative, woke up one morning and thought about my Grandma's beloved dog that she needed to leave behind - "I don't need Whippet any more", so he took Whippet, a dog that had played with all of the grandchildren including his own children for many years, out to a paddock without telling anyone and shot him with a 22-Hornet between the eyes. Within 2 years he was back in the same paddock shooting Rusty, a Kelpie (or is it Kelpy), a dog that he bought for his kids, with that same gun, right between the eyes. I despise him as much as I do any religious belief in sacraficial killings. So it's not about disrespecting Balinese - it's about stopping needless killings.

Ct