To be sure! Water buffalo slaughters at a Torajan funeral involve many, many beasts, and the whole affair is quite brutal. But, I guess the fact that water buffalo are not wonderful fluffy furry things to cuddle up with at night makes all the difference as to why this string isn’t about what goes on in Tanatoraja, eh? :wink:
Are the Gods Color-blind?
- Thread starter tintin
- Start date
To be sure! Water buffalo slaughters at a Torajan funeral involve many, many beasts, and the whole affair is quite brutal. But, I guess the fact that water buffalo are not wonderful fluffy furry things to cuddle up with at night makes all the difference as to why this string isn’t about what goes on in Tanatoraja, eh? :wink:
I think tintin is getting a slightly hard battering on this. There's little in his postings that I disagree with; his way of expressing himself Roy is probably traceable more to an ongoing rivalry with you on the forum - I.e. You two bring out the worst in each other. I actually find the exchanges between yourself and tin quite enjoyable to read - though it would of course be nice if things could remain at least slightly civil.
Additionally, I don't particularly see why tin owes kadek an apology - sacraficing animals is being questioned, and in this instance it is occuring as a part of the Balinese culture. If a Balinese such as kadek is offended for having their culture scrutinized, it's understandable, but that doesn't mean an apology is waranted or that it's not a valid discussion to have or that the other party was necessarily out-of-line in their postings.
Although I agree with tin in his views on the matter, I also acknowledge that yourself and kadek have posted a very strong case, not justifying the acts but instead suggesting other ways one might look at the matter.
It's been a good thread in my view. Let's not start playing the "you've offended so-and-so" or the "I'm offended" cards. That's as bad as making a personal attack on someone in my view. This is a public forum and if you want to read it / participate in it, then thicken up your skin.
Finally, I'll say this - I don't live in Burma and I've never lived in Burma, but I'd like to cremate the government there alive for what they've done. You don't need to be physically present in a place to scrutinize what's happening.
Ct
PS: I just like most other observers I'm sure, find the slaughtering of cows jimbo referenced (for religious ceremony) just as henous, primitive and rediculous as the subject killings being discussed - but this thread was about dogs.
Additionally, I don't particularly see why tin owes kadek an apology - sacraficing animals is being questioned, and in this instance it is occuring as a part of the Balinese culture. If a Balinese such as kadek is offended for having their culture scrutinized, it's understandable, but that doesn't mean an apology is waranted or that it's not a valid discussion to have or that the other party was necessarily out-of-line in their postings.
Although I agree with tin in his views on the matter, I also acknowledge that yourself and kadek have posted a very strong case, not justifying the acts but instead suggesting other ways one might look at the matter.
It's been a good thread in my view. Let's not start playing the "you've offended so-and-so" or the "I'm offended" cards. That's as bad as making a personal attack on someone in my view. This is a public forum and if you want to read it / participate in it, then thicken up your skin.
Finally, I'll say this - I don't live in Burma and I've never lived in Burma, but I'd like to cremate the government there alive for what they've done. You don't need to be physically present in a place to scrutinize what's happening.
Ct
PS: I just like most other observers I'm sure, find the slaughtering of cows jimbo referenced (for religious ceremony) just as henous, primitive and rediculous as the subject killings being discussed - but this thread was about dogs.
Yes I know that my estimation of the number of living creatures used for medical and other scientific research is way more than what I said, I only illustrated the magnitude and for sure it is more disturbing.
Maybe it is not comparable or even fair to compare these ‘useful modern practices’ with ‘for non Balinese’ the useless animal sacrifice for offering.
My point is that it is easy for many people to criticise old native practices (such as animal sacrifice in Bali) and to label these practices as barbaric, inhuman and to label the people practising them as lagging behind in modern society, irrational and uneducated! But on the other hand, the practices of modern, educated society is far less glamorous and sometime even more barbaric in comparison. So how can some educated people point a finger of blame and disgust to these old practices whilst knowing that there are far worst offences committed to animals (and humanity)? What is with embryonic cells research? Isn’t a human life already formed soon after conception?
In my own family, I have never witnessed a Mecaru (sacrificial ceremony) involving the sacrifice of a certain coloured dog (usually called Cicing Blagbungkum), nor is there any desire to conduct one. I know there are people who feel the need to do this, perhaps out of guilt, etc. My family compared to other families very rarely conduct Mecaru ceremonies, the one time I remembered and witnessed was a small one involving a multi-coloured chicken. I don’t know what the readers of this forum will understand when I write yes the chicken was ‘sacrificed’ so I will describe a little bit.
In this ceremony, the chicken will be given a prayer and the person will ask for forgiveness for he/she is about to take its life and wish for it to be re-born as a higher being. The skin/feather is removed for the Mecaru offering where it is displayed and the chicken meat is used to make Sate and Lawar, some for the offering and some for consumption (of course more than one chickens is usually necessary). For sure, when I see the skin and feather of this chicken in the offering, I feel a bit uneasy. But can you tell me how this practice is any crueller than me purchasing my chicken meat from the Supermarket selves? P:S I don’t know if the dog meat is eaten or not.
I don't mind people questioning religious practices such as that of Balinese. I often question the values and reasons of why certain ceremonies are conducted etc and to my advantage I have a father who can give me information on this. If we are to question the cruelty of anything, we should question the cruelty of human in general and how we conduct oursleves every day. There are too many cruelties being perpetrated to other human beings, to animals and to mother earth everyday. There is not a day goes by where we are not presented with such cruelties as our dinner time 'entertainment' on TV, Newpapers, Radio, and Internet.
Regards
Kadek
Maybe it is not comparable or even fair to compare these ‘useful modern practices’ with ‘for non Balinese’ the useless animal sacrifice for offering.
My point is that it is easy for many people to criticise old native practices (such as animal sacrifice in Bali) and to label these practices as barbaric, inhuman and to label the people practising them as lagging behind in modern society, irrational and uneducated! But on the other hand, the practices of modern, educated society is far less glamorous and sometime even more barbaric in comparison. So how can some educated people point a finger of blame and disgust to these old practices whilst knowing that there are far worst offences committed to animals (and humanity)? What is with embryonic cells research? Isn’t a human life already formed soon after conception?
In my own family, I have never witnessed a Mecaru (sacrificial ceremony) involving the sacrifice of a certain coloured dog (usually called Cicing Blagbungkum), nor is there any desire to conduct one. I know there are people who feel the need to do this, perhaps out of guilt, etc. My family compared to other families very rarely conduct Mecaru ceremonies, the one time I remembered and witnessed was a small one involving a multi-coloured chicken. I don’t know what the readers of this forum will understand when I write yes the chicken was ‘sacrificed’ so I will describe a little bit.
In this ceremony, the chicken will be given a prayer and the person will ask for forgiveness for he/she is about to take its life and wish for it to be re-born as a higher being. The skin/feather is removed for the Mecaru offering where it is displayed and the chicken meat is used to make Sate and Lawar, some for the offering and some for consumption (of course more than one chickens is usually necessary). For sure, when I see the skin and feather of this chicken in the offering, I feel a bit uneasy. But can you tell me how this practice is any crueller than me purchasing my chicken meat from the Supermarket selves? P:S I don’t know if the dog meat is eaten or not.
I don't mind people questioning religious practices such as that of Balinese. I often question the values and reasons of why certain ceremonies are conducted etc and to my advantage I have a father who can give me information on this. If we are to question the cruelty of anything, we should question the cruelty of human in general and how we conduct oursleves every day. There are too many cruelties being perpetrated to other human beings, to animals and to mother earth everyday. There is not a day goes by where we are not presented with such cruelties as our dinner time 'entertainment' on TV, Newpapers, Radio, and Internet.
Regards
Kadek
Those people have a bad sense of history.
We have become what we are now, and I mean ALL OF US, because we killed animals. For food, for "pleasure" or otherwise.
Jimbo,
I am not aware that I uttered any insults, but who knows how people read and interpret? You'd better learn the difference between "insults" and "sarcasms," of which our exchanges, Roy's and mine, are peppered with. :evil: Why, even Roy calling me a "pompous ass," which I took with a grain of salt, given that "pompous" I am not, did not even got him a yellow card from the referee. :lol:
I am not aware that I uttered any insults, but who knows how people read and interpret? You'd better learn the difference between "insults" and "sarcasms," of which our exchanges, Roy's and mine, are peppered with. :evil: Why, even Roy calling me a "pompous ass," which I took with a grain of salt, given that "pompous" I am not, did not even got him a yellow card from the referee. :lol:
In the village of Nyuh Kuning, near Ubud, where I had a residence for twelve years, one of my friends leaving there recently complained that many dogs are disappearing from the village. She writes that in Nyuh Kuning "…all the children are frantic because their dogs are disappearing." And later on, "… Little Uki, whose beloved dog Kapu was recently stolen is frantic that her dog Pudgie will be next." Hey, Mimpimanis, you think too much: the Gods accept any "donation." :lol: :lol:[/quote]
Is this fact or assumption that all the dogs stolen are used or being sold for dog sacrifice? I don't even think many of the pet dogs would be suitable for ceremonies or that such ceremonies requiring dog sacrifice are done on a daily or even weekly bases to warant the conclusion that pet dogs are missing and stolen on a regular basis for such purpose.
It has been the rumour in my village that many dogs especially those nice fat pet dogs got stolen and are then killed and used for Kambing (goat) meat substitute. I said in another string awhile back that many people may have unknowingly consumed dog meat by way of consuming Sate Kambing. This has been known and rumoured amongs the people for years!!!
But I cannot provide proof to this rumour but maybe people need to watch out, it may not be the gods that have been served the dog meat!
Kadek
For me to say any more than I already have would be to evoke the sounds of broken 78 rpm record repeating itself. For those who don’t know, that sound is exceptionally annoying and far worse than the sound of finger nails being drawn across a black board.
Kadek, hati hati, but, at the same time, selamat. You have great courage.
Kadek, hati hati, but, at the same time, selamat. You have great courage.
Kadek,
Fair enough. It is only an assumption that the mecaru ceremonies are the cause of the dog disappearances, but it would also be a coincidence that there is a sudden large increase in the demand for dog meat in the area (sate "gambing" or no sate "gambing").
I trust my friend's opinion on the causes of this problem. She has been living in Nyuh Kuning since 1990, is very active and well integrated in this village's social life, and also well connected with the power-that-be, including the kepala desa who is a personal friend of ours. As such she is rather well informed, but again it is only the prevalent assumption of the community
As a sidebar to another string, "Adat and Banjar Fees, What is Expected?", my friend's contribution to her village has not in the form rice, but she has given on many occasions money for specific projects of the village, organized since way back a young children dance group (buying the costumes, paying for lessons, transportation to performances, etc), and teaches English to the same. She also helps with Ibu Robin's women's clinic, but that is not a village's activity per se . Five years ago, she purchased a small farm land up Mt. Batur, in Puakan, near Taro, where the people have hardly a "pot to piss in." There also, the created a dance group for the children, with the dance teacher coming from Singapadu biweekly, and as always she is most generous with the support of this small, poor community. Her children dance group has already won a dance prize two years ago, which is an amazing achievement for children who, up until recently, had never seen a lived dance performance in their "village."
Fair enough. It is only an assumption that the mecaru ceremonies are the cause of the dog disappearances, but it would also be a coincidence that there is a sudden large increase in the demand for dog meat in the area (sate "gambing" or no sate "gambing").
I trust my friend's opinion on the causes of this problem. She has been living in Nyuh Kuning since 1990, is very active and well integrated in this village's social life, and also well connected with the power-that-be, including the kepala desa who is a personal friend of ours. As such she is rather well informed, but again it is only the prevalent assumption of the community
As a sidebar to another string, "Adat and Banjar Fees, What is Expected?", my friend's contribution to her village has not in the form rice, but she has given on many occasions money for specific projects of the village, organized since way back a young children dance group (buying the costumes, paying for lessons, transportation to performances, etc), and teaches English to the same. She also helps with Ibu Robin's women's clinic, but that is not a village's activity per se . Five years ago, she purchased a small farm land up Mt. Batur, in Puakan, near Taro, where the people have hardly a "pot to piss in." There also, the created a dance group for the children, with the dance teacher coming from Singapadu biweekly, and as always she is most generous with the support of this small, poor community. Her children dance group has already won a dance prize two years ago, which is an amazing achievement for children who, up until recently, had never seen a lived dance performance in their "village."
Well, this seems to become another endless thread drifting from here to there.
Lots of different points, from different posters and more or less all of them are valid, so I’m a bit lost, it might lead into a philosophical discussion and from my experience with philosophical discussions, at the end there will be no result, only more questions.
It is no secret that (pet) dogs do disappear in Bali, it is also no secret that dogs are eaten on Bali, the sacrifice of animals in religious ceremonies is also known to the most people in any kind related to Bali.
When Kadek pointed out that sometimes goat meat is replaced with dog, then it’s not only a rumour, it is fact and every Balinese will know this, then there are also people from Sulawesi often blamed to steal and cook dogs.
Balinese ceremonies very often appear strange to Westerners and for many aspects it’s almost impossible to develop a kind of comprehension, for me personally I already gave up to understand some of these things, but what I do is to respect them, I do not question or challenge this practise, that’s a different culture and who I am to criticise or judge this culture.
In my point of view this Western attitude to get disgusted and angry about handling animals in different cultures is not only inconsequent, it is also hypocritical, these kind of people which getting furious about a cock fight and at home they run into KFC, statements like, I would never eat dog, but tender veal is quite nice to them.
Meat is something abstract to most of Western people, who has ever seen where the meat comes from, who was ever in a slaughterhouse, who ever personally witnessed the slaughtering of an animal?
So what is our definition of food – a degenerated liver of a goose, produced under terrible pain for the animal is ok, horse meat is ok, veal is ok, lamb is ok, eggs from a chicken concentration camps are accepted, what else?
I also see the sacrifice of animals for religious ceremonies as an useless and senseless act, just like I see living animal transports half around the world as useless and senseless, the question is, what is more barbaric?
Yes, we are great in complaining about the destroying of wild life in countries far away from us, we complain about the lost of forest there, but we buy the wood, we use the palm oil grown there for bio fuel and we also demonstrate for wild animals, while at home all wild life has already gone.
Best regards
Thorsten
PS: Feel some appetite for a Saltimbocca now :wink:
Lots of different points, from different posters and more or less all of them are valid, so I’m a bit lost, it might lead into a philosophical discussion and from my experience with philosophical discussions, at the end there will be no result, only more questions.
It is no secret that (pet) dogs do disappear in Bali, it is also no secret that dogs are eaten on Bali, the sacrifice of animals in religious ceremonies is also known to the most people in any kind related to Bali.
When Kadek pointed out that sometimes goat meat is replaced with dog, then it’s not only a rumour, it is fact and every Balinese will know this, then there are also people from Sulawesi often blamed to steal and cook dogs.
Balinese ceremonies very often appear strange to Westerners and for many aspects it’s almost impossible to develop a kind of comprehension, for me personally I already gave up to understand some of these things, but what I do is to respect them, I do not question or challenge this practise, that’s a different culture and who I am to criticise or judge this culture.
In my point of view this Western attitude to get disgusted and angry about handling animals in different cultures is not only inconsequent, it is also hypocritical, these kind of people which getting furious about a cock fight and at home they run into KFC, statements like, I would never eat dog, but tender veal is quite nice to them.
Meat is something abstract to most of Western people, who has ever seen where the meat comes from, who was ever in a slaughterhouse, who ever personally witnessed the slaughtering of an animal?
So what is our definition of food – a degenerated liver of a goose, produced under terrible pain for the animal is ok, horse meat is ok, veal is ok, lamb is ok, eggs from a chicken concentration camps are accepted, what else?
I also see the sacrifice of animals for religious ceremonies as an useless and senseless act, just like I see living animal transports half around the world as useless and senseless, the question is, what is more barbaric?
Yes, we are great in complaining about the destroying of wild life in countries far away from us, we complain about the lost of forest there, but we buy the wood, we use the palm oil grown there for bio fuel and we also demonstrate for wild animals, while at home all wild life has already gone.
Best regards
Thorsten
PS: Feel some appetite for a Saltimbocca now :wink:
Just to give you all a break from this highly interesting thread and exchanges; great posts, Kadek and very well put by Thorsten.
Yep, Saltimbocca alla Romana. It's a special dish in Rome as we don't have it here in Milan and it is of veal ladies and gentlemen.
Yep, Saltimbocca alla Romana. It's a special dish in Rome as we don't have it here in Milan and it is of veal ladies and gentlemen.
Kadek
I do not know it to be fact but it is more than my assumption. Lets say rumour. Some dogs that are stolen may be used for sate some for sacrifice but my point was that if the dogs were being bred & raised for sacrifice, in the same way that chickens, goats or cows are than I personally might feel different about the practise.. as I do not have a problem with the sacrifice of these animals.
Although in Lombok not Bali, we have a black dog, his fur is black, his claws, his eyes and he has black spots on his tongue. There, even our vet warned us the first time he saw him to be careful of people trying to steal him. Not for animal sacrifice though but for the use of his tongue in black magic. Panther (Made named him not me!) is believed by the village & by Made to have magical abilities or rather to be immune to magic. In that should a thief try to do magic to put him to sleep so he can rob Mimpi Manis - it will not work, nor will it work if a theif gives poison or obat to put him to sleep.
Again do I beleive this? No, but I am happy that other people do and that Mimpi Manis has remained the safest (in terms of theft) accomodation in Kuta, Lombok.
I do not know it to be fact but it is more than my assumption. Lets say rumour. Some dogs that are stolen may be used for sate some for sacrifice but my point was that if the dogs were being bred & raised for sacrifice, in the same way that chickens, goats or cows are than I personally might feel different about the practise.. as I do not have a problem with the sacrifice of these animals.
Although in Lombok not Bali, we have a black dog, his fur is black, his claws, his eyes and he has black spots on his tongue. There, even our vet warned us the first time he saw him to be careful of people trying to steal him. Not for animal sacrifice though but for the use of his tongue in black magic. Panther (Made named him not me!) is believed by the village & by Made to have magical abilities or rather to be immune to magic. In that should a thief try to do magic to put him to sleep so he can rob Mimpi Manis - it will not work, nor will it work if a theif gives poison or obat to put him to sleep.
Again do I beleive this? No, but I am happy that other people do and that Mimpi Manis has remained the safest (in terms of theft) accomodation in Kuta, Lombok.
Was sitting in KFC in Jakarta airport about 1 hour ago. A little kid was chasing a cat throwing riverstones at it - on two occassions the stones (at least 2" in diameter) hit the reinforced glass of the terminal building. His parents and grandma sat at the table watching him and chuckling. The cat was needless to say, scared shitless.
In Surabaya, an educated person would find their own standards lessened when they'd say in observation, "Ndeso.. Orang Jancuk"..
What this country faces as its largest challenge is the fact that your average person is kampungan - and I'm not talking about their pockets, I'm talking about the heads. For those who think the change is happening from the top and that will flow down, I can only suggest otherwise. There are cultural problems in this country that pretty much guarantee that it will lag the rest of the world in the forseeable future. The kampungan mentality is intertwined with the culture and there's nothing positive about the negatives of the kampungan line of thought.
Shortly before that, I deleted a new thread I'd posted on Indonesia being a third world country rather than a developing country after reflecting on the last eight days I've spent in Thailand on business.
Bert, might you be able to re-post that if it's sitting in a deleted archive somewhere? I suddenly feel it's appropriate, yet again.
Ct
In Surabaya, an educated person would find their own standards lessened when they'd say in observation, "Ndeso.. Orang Jancuk"..
What this country faces as its largest challenge is the fact that your average person is kampungan - and I'm not talking about their pockets, I'm talking about the heads. For those who think the change is happening from the top and that will flow down, I can only suggest otherwise. There are cultural problems in this country that pretty much guarantee that it will lag the rest of the world in the forseeable future. The kampungan mentality is intertwined with the culture and there's nothing positive about the negatives of the kampungan line of thought.
Shortly before that, I deleted a new thread I'd posted on Indonesia being a third world country rather than a developing country after reflecting on the last eight days I've spent in Thailand on business.
Bert, might you be able to re-post that if it's sitting in a deleted archive somewhere? I suddenly feel it's appropriate, yet again.
Ct
I was once sitting at lunch in a Restaurant in Thailand, only a few guests on the terrace and soon some cats came to beg for food.
There was this skinny kitten screaming loudly, suddenly a waiter kicked the cat from the terrace just like a football right in front of me, the cat has flown three or four metres and when I complained with a loud HEY, the guy simply smiled, obviously he was satisfied with his kick.
There was this skinny kitten screaming loudly, suddenly a waiter kicked the cat from the terrace just like a football right in front of me, the cat has flown three or four metres and when I complained with a loud HEY, the guy simply smiled, obviously he was satisfied with his kick.
Happy to hear that your response was at lease "Hey". Sacrificing or consuming dogs seems to me to be more humane than giving a puppy or kitten to small children to torture for the first few years. Not all, but many are subject to great abuse... of course we're more civilized in our own countries.
Talking about Dogs...
Dewi SMS'd me today, our Dog has died. Dewi thinks he was poisoned, since he bled from his mouth and then died.
She blames the "neighborhood".
:cry:
Dewi SMS'd me today, our Dog has died. Dewi thinks he was poisoned, since he bled from his mouth and then died.
She blames the "neighborhood".
:cry:
Sorry to hear that, very sad to know that someone would "at random" poison a dog for whever reason.
My, my, my,
Obviously, many of the expat's in this forum have suddenly forgotten that they are guests in a sovereign nation. Basic rules of etiquette would dictate that when in Rome, do as the Roman's do otherwise, grit your teeth and look the other way.
It's called respect.
Sumatra :lol:
Obviously, many of the expat's in this forum have suddenly forgotten that they are guests in a sovereign nation. Basic rules of etiquette would dictate that when in Rome, do as the Roman's do otherwise, grit your teeth and look the other way.
It's called respect.
Sumatra :lol:
Sumatra,
What kind of reasoning is this? It makes as much sense as tits on a bull. Expat or no expat, one cannot tolerate crime, or "look the other way," as you say. Why don't you send a condolence card to Bert, telling him how you sympathize with his lost, but he should remember not to be afflicted too much by the lose of his dog, since he is only an expat, and, according to you, locals have jurisdiction over his family, his property, over his life? :evil:
For example, here you, Sumatra, are in Bali, and you get mug. So, according to you, it would be OK, because you are not a native, but only visiting. When I got robbed in Nyuh Kuning some years back, maybe I should have shut up, iso going to meet with the Kepala Desa to see how to resolve the problem, which, by the way, afflicted the whole community at the time?
My dear Sumatra, you have shown this attitude in the past, and now you are doing it once more: you are just flaming.
PS. You are even talking nonsense when you write
Although this worn out saying sounds good, but what does it means in the present context? That Balinese don't complain? That Balinese are poisoners? Tell us. :roll:
What kind of reasoning is this? It makes as much sense as tits on a bull. Expat or no expat, one cannot tolerate crime, or "look the other way," as you say. Why don't you send a condolence card to Bert, telling him how you sympathize with his lost, but he should remember not to be afflicted too much by the lose of his dog, since he is only an expat, and, according to you, locals have jurisdiction over his family, his property, over his life? :evil:
For example, here you, Sumatra, are in Bali, and you get mug. So, according to you, it would be OK, because you are not a native, but only visiting. When I got robbed in Nyuh Kuning some years back, maybe I should have shut up, iso going to meet with the Kepala Desa to see how to resolve the problem, which, by the way, afflicted the whole community at the time?
My dear Sumatra, you have shown this attitude in the past, and now you are doing it once more: you are just flaming.
PS. You are even talking nonsense when you write
Although this worn out saying sounds good, but what does it means in the present context? That Balinese don't complain? That Balinese are poisoners? Tell us. :roll:
tintin said:
I think that Sumatra's post was more in regards to the ways of custom and culture (sacrifices, etc) and not in relation to the idea of dogs being poisoned or whether someone gets mugged or not. Crimes like this should be dealt with obviously, but trying to change a culture's view of religion or custom, etc., is something that shouldn't be done by outsiders, period. Sure, we can bitch and gripe about it all we want but I would never expect other cultures to change their way of life in order to please others who are not part of that same culture. It just doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't want others coming to me and trying to "convert" my way of thinking. Would you?