When will liberation come?

[Bert Vierstra]

Hmmm integration....

I never tried to "integrate" or be Balinese. Of course I try to respect the "Bali ways", and I have become Hindu (to marry Dewi) and I join ceremonies now and then.

I also will not pretend to "be Balinese", I am just me living in Bali.

If "they" will reject me, for whatever reason, I wouldn't know, what would rejection mean ? Sending me home?

Do I feel "at home" ? Not always, but its not because of the Balinese. After the first years of being amazed its nice to be in a "normal" country like Australia

Forced integration? I think if you respect the "Bali ways" you can have a nice life in Bali, and people on both sides of the cultural fence live happily next to each other.

Sure when the poverty bomb strikes the world, we are all in trouble...

The people I meet are not so much into speculation however, they are mostly interested in a nice life away from the rat race.

I don't see much in a doomsday scenario like you paint it, something like "foreigners are good for their money, but when we need it, we just take it back"

I feel relaxed in Bali, I do not feel doom lurking around the corner. I am aware that I am a foreigner who has been "granted a life" in Bali as long as I am reasonable and don't do "funny" things.

 

[Dasha]

Gedday all

Sorry about the delay

Frankly I'm in a bit of a mess .. technologoically

I had a trial version of Office 2003 and I can't use "Word" to correct my F..ups so Im' gunna do this cold. Appologies to all. I need my product Key from my office to set things in motion and correct things here at the appartment The wife's gunna handle proof reading later (oops she's asleep) I spose to make things a bit more clearer. We got Flight 93 at what is it 11.39 Pm as I arrive home again from a long day 3.55 am start (with the 50 inch plasma 5.1 surround sound .. my fave to date - post Nichalson in Cuckoos Nest Nurse Rachit directed by Milos Forman and all) stereo on again for the 14th time since I arrived back from Indo to help me get a heads up on understanding how extreme Muslims and why they do such unbelievable things .. as they do.

Firstly .. riderintiawan ... I gotcha PM and I will reply as soon as I can get enough time to reply to your 64 questions / many topics in due course.

Jimbo.. one day mate when you come to my hometown we will take you to a very sacred site known as the MCG where many sacred things take place commonly understood in Aussie speak as "THE FOOTY" ( were' talking not capacity crowd on any given day of say 80 thousand punters)... as Robert Plant once said in a 1976 Album .... Physical Graffitti in a song called Kashmir ... All Will Be Revealed.

Pete Reiger is a bigger man than Bert on the scale of who has the most posters, If you meausure things by volume. But I trust Bert after hangin here for a while and I gotta tell ya ... I hope to meet Bert one day .. just to do the exchange. Believe me this site forum has all the credentials.. we all just need to keep Roy under control ,, cos belive it or not this guy has much to contribute ,, when he learns how to behave. Right?

Mats - you don't need to make excuses for me .. I am what I am.

Alexandre - you speak big good words but what are you on about. Not knockin you mate but honestly????

Bert .. why such a big reply when there are many other posts that you could make such a big contribution to? Man of few words normally.

Sorry all If I'm a bit wasted ...but you are all watching a big change taking place,

And I hope you can all help me when we need to all pull together as a team.

Ta Phil for support here .... I know you know the score here. Should be in Jakarta in 2 weeks for the big one and I promise to swing by Denpasar on the leg back to catch you and Reny,

mAKE SENSE?

Dasha

 

[Jimbo]

Dasha

I look forward to the day when I can take you the LCG but thanks for the invite.

 

[Guest]

Isn't it impossible to predict the future? It's a useful conversation starter if nothing else to speculate. Bad things can always happen. Many Chinese would have been sitting around discussing what the future might hold for them back in 1965. Could they have known that 100,000 innocent people would be slaughtered on the streets of Bali? And many by the normally smiling and spiritual ordinary Balinese.

It's tempting to say that Indonesia has moved on and that it couldn't happen today. But do people really change? Or do circumstances change?

I am thinking about buying a house in Bali but with the thought in the back of my mind that it could all go wrong and it could end up being a bad investment. For some reason even though I feel safe in Bali I just don't feel as secure as I do in Australia. There's always that underlying tension there.

Allan

 

[Sparky]

Jim check out the difference between Sanurian's posts and Roys and the way they are delivered. Yes they both give useful information and have both decided to make Bali their homes. But this is where the similarity ends.

Sanurians posts are informative and humorous and honest as honest goes even if it means having a pop at the Balinese way of life and some of their habits.

Roys are informative but quite often delivered in an agressive way and not honest at all as he will never mock anthing Balinese as because of his business interests(some dubious transaction) and other local intersts he needs to kind of suck up to the elders and those of high status to CREEP up the ladder. The worst trait is thinking that everyone in the world wants to live in Bali (which they dont and especially me) and that they cannot to which he takes a lot of pleasure.

If Roy is a real man he will admit he had been wrong and also more than a bit grumpy lately and apoligise to people past and present and come back on the forum without the expat snobbery and try and deliver posts like some of the other ex-pats do.

Sparky

 

[iainsomers]

Never go live somewhere where you dont feel save. Done that, feels bad.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Spark, I have edited your post a bit....

Anyway, Roy is not able anymore to reply (one month ban) so leave him alone.

Alan, (welcome back) many people feel the same as you do, still they make the plunge.

 

[tintin]

I think I must have missed something in Alexandre's original post, which started this string. I believe, that Alexandre is suggesting that under some economic duress due to an int'l monetary crisis, the Balinese would turn on the foreigners who are now living in Bali and for some who own properties, take them away. Is this correct? I believe it is, and this is why I cannot under Alexandre's premises.

Let us assume that such int'l economic crisis does occur and, as the consequences, every country faced with this crisis ends up in or near a state of emergency. What would happen in Bali? The same as in any other country in the world: misery, but mostly, as always, this would be the fate of the populace, not the "elite. We are not here talking about multinational companies that exploit the people with the tacit, or active complicity of some natives. We are talking about individual ownership. Unless Jakarta would whip up public opinion against foreign exploiters, in the Soekarno's style, what would the Balinese' interest be in kicking out the foreigners and repossessing their land? Why would the populace turned against the foreign investments and foreigners. Surely, the Balinese would not move into the luxurious villas abandoned by the foreigners. Few would for sure, for a while, but soon, these residences would deteriorate for lack of upkeep. Why? Because these abodes are also totally foreign to the Balinese and their way of life.

Second, when I say "foreign," I am not at all correct, for the good reason that most of the land on which these private foreign villas are built are actually Indonesian-owned. And I do not mean in title, but in fact, and it would go totally against these Indonesian owners'' economical interests. Again, what are they going to do with these empty villas? Eat them?

I have a very dear Balinese friend who stated a new company this past year. His company builds villas (and very successfully at that) in the Kerobokan – Canggu area. He wants to sell his villas, he does not want to keep them. He would be the first to be opposed to his clients being dispossessed of their real estate, for no other reason that it would be VERY bad publicity for potential future clients. And if we are talking about an economical crisis, where there are no new potential customers, he would like to keep the present owners of the already built villas happy so they continue to pay their mortgages.

The fact that Balinese are selling their good agricultural land for an immediate profit is a fact and a real problem for Bali (no, the land that is being sold is NOT mostly useless agricultural land, no matter what some people pretend) and many preeminent Balinese, concerned about the future of their island, have raised their voices in the media over the last twenty years. If the agricultural real estate, now occupied by fancy private villas, was to be abandoned, it would NEVER be returned to rice fields, and anybody who pretends otherwise is just dreaming and ignores the Balinese psyche. What would happen is that the villas would slowly disintegrate and rot away, but the land would never return to productive patties. Again, what would my friend do with his empty villas in Kerobokan or Canggu? Eat them?

I believe Alexandre, my friend, that if you were not trolling, with all do respect, you were raising an absolutely non-problem.

 

[froggy]

We have friends that have lived in java for 14 yrs, own , run a furniture factory, have saved tons of money.... they are building a house in Ubud and they are a bit worried. it will be around 1mill us$$,,, but what the heck, if all goes to hell, what would a bunch of numbers on a bank statement mean?? last time I checked Dollars, Dinar, or especially Rupee do not taste very good even with a few bintang,,, but as for the balinese takng over your house? No, that seems a little far fetched,, you have a better chance of the U.S govt taking your house.. and they DO It right as we speak.... they force you out for roads- infrastructure etc....they kick people out all the time- even if you pay alll the crapy taxes, but hell ,, they run out and build houses in other countries!!!! ya your sfer in bali i feel ... Thats my 2 cents.... Frog

 

[Ilu]

To Roy and everybody who thinks they understand everything about the Balinese. I have found out that the more I learn the more I dont understand. I have been studying social anthropology in Bali I have stayed in Bali half the year for some years and I have been married to a Balinese for 3 years. I live in the village when i am there. But I will say that I still have to learn a lot about their culture and their way of thinking. I love Bali and I hope I can live there all the time soon.

A wise Bali woman said to me many years ago when we were at a ceremony on the beach, a lot of tourists in their swimming wear came to take photos in between the praying people and i got angry and want to tell them to go away; she said, let them be, they are like children.

A lot of the fights on this forum is about different opinions, and of course Balinese have a different opinion to. There are also different ways to do things in different parts of Bali, so 1 person is not right all the time and all the others wrong. Its just different opinions.

Anne

 

[DCC]

Alex, you assume the island is occupied, that subsistance farming (and eating the rich) is the only real future for the Balinese, world wide panic (the sky is falling), and pending doom for the Bule's in Bali. Your deffinately not the glass is half full type, eh.

Thanks to Bali's perceived poor infrastructure and other associated investment risks it has not become another Hawaii, where many would argue the islands are under occupation and where one is not made welcome.

My neighbors welcome me and that alone feels good!

 

[matahari]

DCC, I agree but still there is alot that have happend in the last decade. New shoppingmalls, hotels, countryclubs, roads etc, some of them are good and some bad. And surely alot more would have developed if it wouldn`t have been for the bombings and other factors.
One example of what I think is a bad sign on where bali is heading tourismdevelopingwise (pretty sure that is an nonexisting word, but you get it ) is the new apartmentcomplex that have been built down legian beach in Seminyak?I have not seen it finished just when i was under construction. But it feels totaly misplaced and personally I don`t think it belong that close to the beach.

Bali is not yet Hawaii, but how will it look in another ten years.

 

[Dasha]

Trades & Technical college Topic.

Spark here is where you are right on the money.

It was actually at this point if you all remember that Roy really got himself into trouble. When you go up against Phil in a debate/ war of words ... you better be prepared for action.

Read the exchange carefully. Phil started with a simple course of reason that there is a very poor standard of education in Bali ( Not Indonesia) when it comes to trades. He was not looking for a fight - cos deep down if he wanted to get into one, he could be like David Caradine as Kway Chang Kain ( not sure of the spelling please forgive me).

For those of us old enough to remember this character in the 70s series .. he was just a quiet achiver who eventually at the end of each episode just beat the shit out of the bad guy and we all loved it. Perhaps not Phil's intentions but he can just do this without even trying.

Now Roy, after what I believe was a case of too many Matinis at the time just went the juggular on whatever he could lay his hands on in terms of how things are done in the compound etc etc and in the end could not stand the test of a retired Phycologist , who was not even trying,(still got no spell check folks) and pretty much made a complete dick of himself and had to appologise to everyone and tell us that his Balian/ inner soul / guru told him to head off into some area where he could become an "astronaught of inner space" Buzz Aldrin style and work things out.

In other words just retreating cos he knows deep down that he was beaten by a smarter person who just happens to be Australian after bagging many other Ausies in the process who probably have a lotta trouble posting again for this reason.

OK Sparky. So where you have to cut Roy a bitta slack is the fact that he can be aggresive. And that his nature at times. But I have seen him being a very helpfull poster who has many times helped me and others with his opinion on things and has a great deal of information to add to this forum on all sorts of topics. It's just that you have to realise that he is very good with words but when push comes to shove he is weak as piss. And he probably knows it.

I reckon Bert oughta let him back on .. sooner rather than later to see if he now knows how to behave and get along with everyone to be that kind of guy that can help us to know the stuff he knows well. Which is everything about Bali.

Lets face it... the man has verbal dihoreah and is willing to talk about anything. 3000 plus posts demonstrates that very clearly. I wanna see him back giving all the new comers expert advice on anything thats needs to be answered. Even if he is wrong and we will know it, but this time everyone can remind him very quickly if he's getting a bit nasty and say Roy.. time for a rest now buddy .. your'e gunna have a nasty turn if you don't take a Nanna nap , He will be just fine.

If he does not accept the advice then Phil will just have to do a bitta Kung Fu.

Sorry for the ramblings again .. I had another long day at 1.14am local time.

 

[Jimbo]

Dasha

Roy has been aggressive, apologised, been aggressive and apologised time and time again. In addition he has been rude and a bully to the extent of swearing at folks.

He has been asked politely on many occasions to change and has not done so. He has caused many a newcomer to leave with his style of attacking people, and he has been thrown out of other forums for exactly this. But I personally have never seen him as bad as the last few weeks and he has to understand and learn that in a forum such as this there are rules to be obeyed.

I hope he does because 90% of his stuff is good and helpful and shows a lot of patience and I am sure he will come back and contribute good stuff again.............until the next time :-(

That accounts for maybe 10% of his postings

 

[DCC]

Yea Matahari, there is another aprtment building planned for Seminyak which I too look down on but what are you going to do. The Gov is begging developers to stop adding hotel rooms as there is much excess. Adding to that the nature of constant building of box stores down south has me planning to move up north within the year. For me more rural Bali is where it's at.

 

[Dasha]

This is true Jim and I agree entirely with your 90% 10 % theory.

When I first joined BEF, Roy was one of the few on this forum who actually took the time to welcome me. And I have never forgotten this.

And I know the damage he can cause to other posters not as strong as myself who just simply don't post again cos of the intimidation he expells toward people he does not agree with. In some cases it's ferocious. Various people on Lombok Lovers are telling me that they don't come here anymore becouse of him.

But there is also something that i learned as a little boy and bearing in mind I am not equiped with the comand of the English lingo as he has and that is...

"Not by works, so that no man may take glory to himself. not on the principle of works, that no one might boast. Not of works, lest any man should boast"


OK

When he fully understands this statement and other people less stronger than he realise the armour that one can be protected by this statement then all people will be able to understand this kind of behaviour including Roy himself.

Who knows maybe Roy is realising that he is not as smart as he makes out .. not only to us but to himself as well.

And I do agree that it is a shame that people get hurt by him along the way. But it's people like me that put Roy back in his box. And I,m just a nobody.

 

[Thorsten]

Dasha,

one thing I have learned as a young boy is, stop bashing when somebody is on the floor, or cannot defend himself anymore!

So do us a favour and give it a rest now with Roy!

Sparky,

Don’t know what Bert has edited at your original post, but unjustified speculations toward people you don’t know personally is unnecessary.


Best regards
Thorsten

 

[Thorsten]

Sparky,

the grammatically mistakes in my last post are a result of an edit by forum mods.
What is missing in this posting was, that I called your speculations also shameless and I also advised you, when you are clueless better to shut up !!!

Best regards
Thorsten

 

[drbruce]

Amen to that, Thorsten.

 

[Dasha]

Thorsten and Dr Bruce

So kind of you both to weigh in at this stage of the game.

From here on in I will sit on the side lines and observe the carnage and allow you guys to take care of the little guys.

Best Regards

Dasha