SO, WHAT REALLY IS GOING ON IN ENGLAND?
- Thread starter Roy
- Start date
Roy and Chad,
An "unidentified source" says they had a dust-up regarding the timing. No one else is saying that....
At least so far. But again I think that if they wanted to help their "friend" Joe Lieberman, then I think they would have done it BEFORE the election.
An "unidentified source" says they had a dust-up regarding the timing. No one else is saying that....
At least so far. But again I think that if they wanted to help their "friend" Joe Lieberman, then I think they would have done it BEFORE the election.Jim, I thought that going into the primary election Lieberman was expected to win and his loss came as a surprise to the Bush Admin. After all, he's been a senator for about as long as I could vote...over thirty years or so?
So maybe the timing is "damage control?"
So maybe the timing is "damage control?"
Re: RE: SO, WHAT REALLY IS GOING ON IN ENGLAND?
Good Point Roy! Was that a joke? With the way things are going in the world today some 'damage control' would be nice. Over here we now call Joe "Loserman."
I dont know If many people know this or not but for the democrats to take control they need to pick up at least 6 or 7 new seats to take control while the republicans only need to keep there seats and even if they lost 4 or 5 they would still have control. Just a thought for the masses.
Roy said:
Good Point Roy! Was that a joke? With the way things are going in the world today some 'damage control' would be nice. Over here we now call Joe "Loserman."
I dont know If many people know this or not but for the democrats to take control they need to pick up at least 6 or 7 new seats to take control while the republicans only need to keep there seats and even if they lost 4 or 5 they would still have control. Just a thought for the masses.
Well...I write this knowing that it may make me unpopular on this 'Bali' forum, which also seems to be posing as a clandestine 'Vent your misplaced anger at America' forum...but being liked really doesnt matter much in the scheme of things, as the attitude of the clearly educated people on this forum is frightening to me.
But the fact of the matter is, how many suicide bombings is it going to take before you guys will give up this pathetic whining about 'fear politics' and 'privacy invasions'? Honestly, do we need the Empire State Building to go down next? How about instead of trains in Mumbai and Spain, they kill 200 people on a train in Chicago or Athens? How many more videotaped beheadings do we need to see before you realize that this is not some lame conspiracy theory, but actual people that are brainwashed into believing they are doing God's work and going to get their virgins in Paradise based on how many infidels they murder?
Its even more shocking that this is the talk on the 'Bali' forum, a beautiful place that has been devastated by not one but two of these vile acts of terror. Or would you say that Bush and Blair made those up also? It was really the CIA that did it, right? Not that I am accusing anyone here of saying that, but the diminishing of the reality of extremism and the deflection of that anger towards America would seem to play right into that kind of talk. That sounds like the same rhetoric we heard from that lovable Abu Bakar Bashir, what a big teddy bear that guy is, no?
If people are bitching and moaning about not being able to take their bottle of Vitamin Water on the airplane, or having to take one extra hour out of their selfish lives in order to insure thorough inspections on their airplane, I think there needs to be some self examination.
Security is of the utmost importance in a world populated by such radical people and ideologies. Obviously I dont know the full details about this Airplane Plot, but I assure you that if this had gone down there would be plenty of people out there applauding it as a 'great act of God'. Maybe not your 20% like we heard on that study, but there would be plenty, and that is the scary thing about the world today.
And by the way, who cares exactly when this was supposed to happen? Does it really need to be in execution stage before the authorities can act? Or maybe we should have waited for it to actually happen and then turned around and said 'i told you so!', and only then could we take any action about it.
It just seems like from these comments that you guys just get rattled over the most ridiculous aspects of this, like what day it happened, and who lost the election right before that, and all those kind of things...when the heart of the matter is that these attacks have happened numerous times, do happen in the world almost every day, and most likely will happen again...and that means the horrific loss of innocent life in the most gruesome ways imaginable...and all to satisfy this extremist agenda that reviles the basic principles of coexistence of cultures and peoples.
So lets just sort out where the real evils here are, and whats really more important to be preoccupied with, the chastising of political agendas in a democratic society, or security against the sickening bloodlust of this new generation of 'holy warriors' that have had just a few too many 'victorious martyrdom operations' carried out over the last few years, including those in our beloved 'Bali'.
Just my thoughts.
But the fact of the matter is, how many suicide bombings is it going to take before you guys will give up this pathetic whining about 'fear politics' and 'privacy invasions'? Honestly, do we need the Empire State Building to go down next? How about instead of trains in Mumbai and Spain, they kill 200 people on a train in Chicago or Athens? How many more videotaped beheadings do we need to see before you realize that this is not some lame conspiracy theory, but actual people that are brainwashed into believing they are doing God's work and going to get their virgins in Paradise based on how many infidels they murder?
Its even more shocking that this is the talk on the 'Bali' forum, a beautiful place that has been devastated by not one but two of these vile acts of terror. Or would you say that Bush and Blair made those up also? It was really the CIA that did it, right? Not that I am accusing anyone here of saying that, but the diminishing of the reality of extremism and the deflection of that anger towards America would seem to play right into that kind of talk. That sounds like the same rhetoric we heard from that lovable Abu Bakar Bashir, what a big teddy bear that guy is, no?
If people are bitching and moaning about not being able to take their bottle of Vitamin Water on the airplane, or having to take one extra hour out of their selfish lives in order to insure thorough inspections on their airplane, I think there needs to be some self examination.
Security is of the utmost importance in a world populated by such radical people and ideologies. Obviously I dont know the full details about this Airplane Plot, but I assure you that if this had gone down there would be plenty of people out there applauding it as a 'great act of God'. Maybe not your 20% like we heard on that study, but there would be plenty, and that is the scary thing about the world today.
And by the way, who cares exactly when this was supposed to happen? Does it really need to be in execution stage before the authorities can act? Or maybe we should have waited for it to actually happen and then turned around and said 'i told you so!', and only then could we take any action about it.
It just seems like from these comments that you guys just get rattled over the most ridiculous aspects of this, like what day it happened, and who lost the election right before that, and all those kind of things...when the heart of the matter is that these attacks have happened numerous times, do happen in the world almost every day, and most likely will happen again...and that means the horrific loss of innocent life in the most gruesome ways imaginable...and all to satisfy this extremist agenda that reviles the basic principles of coexistence of cultures and peoples.
So lets just sort out where the real evils here are, and whats really more important to be preoccupied with, the chastising of political agendas in a democratic society, or security against the sickening bloodlust of this new generation of 'holy warriors' that have had just a few too many 'victorious martyrdom operations' carried out over the last few years, including those in our beloved 'Bali'.
Just my thoughts.
Re: RE: SO, WHAT REALLY IS GOING ON IN ENGLAND?
Interesting perspective. Were you in NY or Wash DC on Sept. 11th or in Kuta on Oct. 12th? And by the way you are entitled to your own opionion just like everyone is, but let me be the first to tell you that you ARE wrong. As in your own words, "try not to get rattled over the most rediculous aspects" of this and every litttle detail someone writes on this forum.
Peace in Bali and everywhere in between
dawnofjedi said:
Interesting perspective. Were you in NY or Wash DC on Sept. 11th or in Kuta on Oct. 12th? And by the way you are entitled to your own opionion just like everyone is, but let me be the first to tell you that you ARE wrong. As in your own words, "try not to get rattled over the most rediculous aspects" of this and every litttle detail someone writes on this forum.
Peace in Bali and everywhere in between
Please people, lets not discuss the politics of the US or GB.
If the public has been fooled (or not) by 9-11 and has been fooled again by the "fluid bombs" to create "situations" that would allow certain people to get what they want from the world maybe looks relevant to life on Bali, but I rather keep it out of this forum.
Thanks.
(There is still an unused forum : http://www.baligeek.net/ if people want to have this opened for discussing the above or other stuff I usually don't want in the expat forum send me a PM)
If the public has been fooled (or not) by 9-11 and has been fooled again by the "fluid bombs" to create "situations" that would allow certain people to get what they want from the world maybe looks relevant to life on Bali, but I rather keep it out of this forum.
Thanks.
(There is still an unused forum : http://www.baligeek.net/ if people want to have this opened for discussing the above or other stuff I usually don't want in the expat forum send me a PM)
I love when people debate currant affair , though for the last 5 years Im starting to feel the movIe "WAG THE DOG" is closer to the truth then we know .
'The UK Terror plot: what's really going on?' by Craig Murray.
Craig Murray served as the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan from August 2002 to October 2004.
I have been reading very carefully through all the Sunday newspapers to try and analyse the truth from all the scores of pages claiming to detail the so-called bomb plot. Unlike the great herd of so-called security experts doing the media analysis, I have the advantage of having had the very highest security clearances myself, having done a huge amount of professional intelligence analysis, and having been inside the spin machine.
So this, I believe, is the true story.
None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb. None had bought a plane ticket. Many did not even have passports, which given the efficiency of the UK Passport Agency would mean they couldn't be a plane bomber for quite some time.
In the absence of bombs and airline tickets, and in many cases passports, it could be pretty difficult to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt that individuals intended to go through with suicide bombings, whatever rash stuff they may have bragged in internet chat rooms.
What is more, many of those arrested had been under surveillance for over a year - like thousands of other British Muslims. And not just Muslims. Like me. Nothing from that surveillance had indicated the need for early arrests.
Then an interrogation in Pakistan revealed the details of this amazing plot to blow up multiple planes - which, rather extraordinarily, had not turned up in a year of surveillance. Of course, the interrogators of the Pakistani dictator have their ways of making people sing like canaries. As I witnessed in Uzbekistan, you can get the most extraordinary information this way. Trouble is it always tends to give the interrogators all they might want, and more, in a desperate effort to stop or avert torture. What it doesn't give is the truth.
The gentleman being "interrogated" had fled the UK after being wanted for questioning over the murder of his uncle some years ago. That might be felt to cast some doubt on his reliability. It might also be felt that factors other than political ones might be at play within these relationships. Much is also being made of large transfers of money outside the formal economy. Not in fact too unusual in the British Muslim community, but if this activity is criminal, there are many possibilities that have nothing to do with terrorism.
We then have the extraordinary question of Bush and Blair discussing the possible arrests over the weekend. Why? I think the answer to that is plain. Both in desperate domestic political trouble, they longed for "Another 9/11". The intelligence from Pakistan, however dodgy, gave them a new 9/11 they could sell to the media. The media has bought, wholesale, all the rubbish they have been shovelled.
We then have the appalling political propaganda of John Reid, Home Secretary, making a speech warning us all of the dreadful evil threatening us and complaining that "Some people don't get" the need to abandon all our traditional liberties. He then went on, according to his own propaganda machine, to stay up all night and minutely direct the arrests. There could be no clearer evidence that our Police are now just a political tool. Like all the best nasty regimes, the knock on the door came in the middle of the night, at 2.30am. Those arrested included a mother with a six week old baby.
For those who don't know, it is worth introducing Reid. A hardened Stalinist with a long term reputation for personal violence, at Stirling Univeristy he was the Communist Party's "Enforcer", (in days when the Communist Party ran Stirling University Students' Union, which it should not be forgotten was a business with a very substantial cash turnover). Reid was sent to beat up those who deviated from the Party line.
We will now never know if any of those arrested would have gone on to make a bomb or buy a plane ticket. Most of them do not fit the "Loner" profile you would expect - a tiny percentage of suicide bombers have happy marriages and young children. As they were all under surveillance, and certainly would have been on airport watch lists, there could have been little danger in letting them proceed closer to maturity - that is certainly what we would have done with the IRA.
In all of this, the one thing of which I am certain is that the timing is deeply political. This is more propaganda than plot. Of the over one thousand British Muslims arrested under anti-terrorist legislation, only twelve per cent are ever charged with anything. That is simply harrassment of Muslims on an appalling scale. Of those charged, 80% are acquitted. Most of the very few - just over two per cent of arrests - who are convicted, are not convicted of anything to do terrorism, but of some minor offence the Police happened upon while trawling through the wreck of the lives they had shattered.
Be sceptical. Be very, very sceptical.
Craig Murray served as the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan from August 2002 to October 2004.
I have been reading very carefully through all the Sunday newspapers to try and analyse the truth from all the scores of pages claiming to detail the so-called bomb plot. Unlike the great herd of so-called security experts doing the media analysis, I have the advantage of having had the very highest security clearances myself, having done a huge amount of professional intelligence analysis, and having been inside the spin machine.
So this, I believe, is the true story.
None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb. None had bought a plane ticket. Many did not even have passports, which given the efficiency of the UK Passport Agency would mean they couldn't be a plane bomber for quite some time.
In the absence of bombs and airline tickets, and in many cases passports, it could be pretty difficult to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt that individuals intended to go through with suicide bombings, whatever rash stuff they may have bragged in internet chat rooms.
What is more, many of those arrested had been under surveillance for over a year - like thousands of other British Muslims. And not just Muslims. Like me. Nothing from that surveillance had indicated the need for early arrests.
Then an interrogation in Pakistan revealed the details of this amazing plot to blow up multiple planes - which, rather extraordinarily, had not turned up in a year of surveillance. Of course, the interrogators of the Pakistani dictator have their ways of making people sing like canaries. As I witnessed in Uzbekistan, you can get the most extraordinary information this way. Trouble is it always tends to give the interrogators all they might want, and more, in a desperate effort to stop or avert torture. What it doesn't give is the truth.
The gentleman being "interrogated" had fled the UK after being wanted for questioning over the murder of his uncle some years ago. That might be felt to cast some doubt on his reliability. It might also be felt that factors other than political ones might be at play within these relationships. Much is also being made of large transfers of money outside the formal economy. Not in fact too unusual in the British Muslim community, but if this activity is criminal, there are many possibilities that have nothing to do with terrorism.
We then have the extraordinary question of Bush and Blair discussing the possible arrests over the weekend. Why? I think the answer to that is plain. Both in desperate domestic political trouble, they longed for "Another 9/11". The intelligence from Pakistan, however dodgy, gave them a new 9/11 they could sell to the media. The media has bought, wholesale, all the rubbish they have been shovelled.
We then have the appalling political propaganda of John Reid, Home Secretary, making a speech warning us all of the dreadful evil threatening us and complaining that "Some people don't get" the need to abandon all our traditional liberties. He then went on, according to his own propaganda machine, to stay up all night and minutely direct the arrests. There could be no clearer evidence that our Police are now just a political tool. Like all the best nasty regimes, the knock on the door came in the middle of the night, at 2.30am. Those arrested included a mother with a six week old baby.
For those who don't know, it is worth introducing Reid. A hardened Stalinist with a long term reputation for personal violence, at Stirling Univeristy he was the Communist Party's "Enforcer", (in days when the Communist Party ran Stirling University Students' Union, which it should not be forgotten was a business with a very substantial cash turnover). Reid was sent to beat up those who deviated from the Party line.
We will now never know if any of those arrested would have gone on to make a bomb or buy a plane ticket. Most of them do not fit the "Loner" profile you would expect - a tiny percentage of suicide bombers have happy marriages and young children. As they were all under surveillance, and certainly would have been on airport watch lists, there could have been little danger in letting them proceed closer to maturity - that is certainly what we would have done with the IRA.
In all of this, the one thing of which I am certain is that the timing is deeply political. This is more propaganda than plot. Of the over one thousand British Muslims arrested under anti-terrorist legislation, only twelve per cent are ever charged with anything. That is simply harrassment of Muslims on an appalling scale. Of those charged, 80% are acquitted. Most of the very few - just over two per cent of arrests - who are convicted, are not convicted of anything to do terrorism, but of some minor offence the Police happened upon while trawling through the wreck of the lives they had shattered.
Be sceptical. Be very, very sceptical.
Strange thing about this type of post is that there is no way to question the author of the article and no reference to how or where the artcle was obtained.
I find it strange that an ex ambassodor should denigrate his collegues in this way as it is tantamount to political suicide. There is not an ounce of provable fact in this article and so to me it has no more relevance that what it is trying to denigrate.
Wind up merchant comes to mind although of course I have no proof.
I find it strange that an ex ambassodor should denigrate his collegues in this way as it is tantamount to political suicide. There is not an ounce of provable fact in this article and so to me it has no more relevance that what it is trying to denigrate.
Wind up merchant comes to mind although of course I have no proof.
Jimbo, whatever you may find strange is up to you.
Make sure you do not replicate what you fear by committing the same mistakes. If doubtful, then check for yourself.
Craig Murray is for real. You can google his name and you will find his website with the books he wrote.
I suggest you do your own homework so you do not have to insinuate without proof.
Make sure you do not replicate what you fear by committing the same mistakes. If doubtful, then check for yourself.
Craig Murray is for real. You can google his name and you will find his website with the books he wrote.
I suggest you do your own homework so you do not have to insinuate without proof.
Gentlemen,
please keep the heated political stuff of the forum...
I am still busy with my new pc, but after things get organised again you can use another forum for this soon ...
please keep the heated political stuff of the forum...
I am still busy with my new pc, but after things get organised again you can use another forum for this soon ...
Great idea Bert. May I suggest the name, "warung kopi"...a place to discuss political events as they relate to Bali and Indonesia, or to vent, or to stab one another with kris if needed.
Alexandre
The onus is on you to provide the proof not for me to look around to prove your case. You could have provided the links you talk about and I would have looked at them. If you look at any of the discussions on this web site this is how it is done and even before when we debating in Uni this is how it is done.
I was not trying to insinuate anything merly pointing out to you that it is perfectly possible for you to have written this rather than who you said it was. Believe me it would not have been the first time.
It is unfair of you to therefore tell me I should look things up to prove what you wrote. Thats your job. Lighten up my friend its only a forum not a matter of life and death.
The onus is on you to provide the proof not for me to look around to prove your case. You could have provided the links you talk about and I would have looked at them. If you look at any of the discussions on this web site this is how it is done and even before when we debating in Uni this is how it is done.
I was not trying to insinuate anything merly pointing out to you that it is perfectly possible for you to have written this rather than who you said it was. Believe me it would not have been the first time.
It is unfair of you to therefore tell me I should look things up to prove what you wrote. Thats your job. Lighten up my friend its only a forum not a matter of life and death.
Here Jimbo. Instead of talking about it for hours uselessly, it just took me few seconds on Google to understand who this Graig Murray is (I am not British) and where he comes from. For example, have a look at:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
To me, it's simple. If I am not interested on a topic, I move on. If interested enough, I look around, not only where the person posting selectively directs me, but also in my own direction.
For example, have a look at:http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
To me, it's simple. If I am not interested on a topic, I move on. If interested enough, I look around, not only where the person posting selectively directs me, but also in my own direction.
Latest update for those who care
The Crown Prosecution Service
by Craig Murray, http://www.craigmurray.org.uk, ex-UK ambassador to Uzbekistan
Eventually we will find out something of the truth behind the alleged terror plot. The law prohibits me from commenting on the evidence: but as the police have already done so, I might say that so far nothing they said has contradicted my contention that no-one had purchased a ticket and nobody had assembled a bomb. It is also worth noting that the mother, Cossor Ali, has not been charged with conspiracy to murder, so the lurid story about her planning to blow up a plane and her baby with a bomb in a feeding bottle appears to be a fantasy.
The charges laid are extremely serious. We will wait to see what the trial brings - unfortunately, the BBC are saying that the prisoners could wait in jail for three years before a substantive trial. As with the "ricin plotters", that is long enough that in the event of a not guilty verdict the public will have forgotten all about it and the media will be able to report it on page 22 in a single paragraph. Who doubts that if the ricin plotters had been found guilty, it would have been page 1 all over again?
Incidentally, my own straw poll indicates that most people don't realise the ricin plot didn't exist and the "plotters" were found not guilty. Hardly surprising when the disgraceful BBC News was today talking about the "Ricin plot" - without mentioning the not guilty verdicts - in a ridiculous scaremongering feature about "Agroterrorism", claiming that terrorists could kill 250,000 people by introducing botulism into a milk tanker. Worth noting that the Head of News and Current Affairs at the BBC is Helen Boaden, whose brother was a New Labour candidate at the last election.
Of course, our still shiny independent Crown Prosecution Service will have impartially assessed the evidence and decided it was sufficient to go to trial - which effectively gave the CPS the power to lock these people up for three years before the evidence is tested by the defence. The CPS mission statement describes itself proudly as "an independent prosecution service".
So, consider the statement by the Crown Prosecution Service at the police conference where the charges were announced on 21 August. I heard this on TV and sat up suddenly. I couldn't believe my ears. I have just tracked down the quote to confirm I heard aright:
Susan Hemmings, Crown Prosecution Service:
"I was briefed in relation to these allegations before the arrest and asked to advise on some preliminary legal issues both before and just after arrest. Together with another senior CPS lawyer, I have been working with the police full time at New Scotland Yard for the last eight days."
Source: http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/149_06.html
What? The CPS unit that took the decision was actually "embedded" with the police investigation in Scotland Yard? Was a party to the turmoil, excitement and indeed hype that has characterised this investigation?
That strikes me as very strange for the body that is meant impartially to assess the weight of police evidence and decide if there is a case for prosecution. Does anyone know if the CPS has ever physically moved itself to Scotland Yard before in any previous case?
The Crown Prosecution Service
by Craig Murray, http://www.craigmurray.org.uk, ex-UK ambassador to Uzbekistan
Eventually we will find out something of the truth behind the alleged terror plot. The law prohibits me from commenting on the evidence: but as the police have already done so, I might say that so far nothing they said has contradicted my contention that no-one had purchased a ticket and nobody had assembled a bomb. It is also worth noting that the mother, Cossor Ali, has not been charged with conspiracy to murder, so the lurid story about her planning to blow up a plane and her baby with a bomb in a feeding bottle appears to be a fantasy.
The charges laid are extremely serious. We will wait to see what the trial brings - unfortunately, the BBC are saying that the prisoners could wait in jail for three years before a substantive trial. As with the "ricin plotters", that is long enough that in the event of a not guilty verdict the public will have forgotten all about it and the media will be able to report it on page 22 in a single paragraph. Who doubts that if the ricin plotters had been found guilty, it would have been page 1 all over again?
Incidentally, my own straw poll indicates that most people don't realise the ricin plot didn't exist and the "plotters" were found not guilty. Hardly surprising when the disgraceful BBC News was today talking about the "Ricin plot" - without mentioning the not guilty verdicts - in a ridiculous scaremongering feature about "Agroterrorism", claiming that terrorists could kill 250,000 people by introducing botulism into a milk tanker. Worth noting that the Head of News and Current Affairs at the BBC is Helen Boaden, whose brother was a New Labour candidate at the last election.
Of course, our still shiny independent Crown Prosecution Service will have impartially assessed the evidence and decided it was sufficient to go to trial - which effectively gave the CPS the power to lock these people up for three years before the evidence is tested by the defence. The CPS mission statement describes itself proudly as "an independent prosecution service".
So, consider the statement by the Crown Prosecution Service at the police conference where the charges were announced on 21 August. I heard this on TV and sat up suddenly. I couldn't believe my ears. I have just tracked down the quote to confirm I heard aright:
Susan Hemmings, Crown Prosecution Service:
"I was briefed in relation to these allegations before the arrest and asked to advise on some preliminary legal issues both before and just after arrest. Together with another senior CPS lawyer, I have been working with the police full time at New Scotland Yard for the last eight days."
Source: http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/149_06.html
What? The CPS unit that took the decision was actually "embedded" with the police investigation in Scotland Yard? Was a party to the turmoil, excitement and indeed hype that has characterised this investigation?
That strikes me as very strange for the body that is meant impartially to assess the weight of police evidence and decide if there is a case for prosecution. Does anyone know if the CPS has ever physically moved itself to Scotland Yard before in any previous case?
Alexandre,
The main thrust of this is :
"That strikes me as very strange for the body that is meant impartially to assess the weight of police evidence and decide if there is a case for prosecution."
Mr. Murray was very publicly fired and humiliated by the current British administration. While what he says may be true, I question HIS impartiality when it comes to criticizing this administration. He has more than enough reason to want to screw them. I think the bottom line is that we will see in a few months and no amount of speculation will change that.
The main thrust of this is :
"That strikes me as very strange for the body that is meant impartially to assess the weight of police evidence and decide if there is a case for prosecution."
Mr. Murray was very publicly fired and humiliated by the current British administration. While what he says may be true, I question HIS impartiality when it comes to criticizing this administration. He has more than enough reason to want to screw them. I think the bottom line is that we will see in a few months and no amount of speculation will change that.