Pope Benedict and Muslim Reactions

[Mark Wales]

I read the words "basic human rights", "what's right or wrong" etc.
Who decides this? What could appear to be human rights violation for
some maybe a way of life for another. All this sounds so much like the
Conquistadors (hope my spelling is right) who devastated an entire culture "Aztecs" to bring "salvation to the natives". With salvation came many deseases that the natives never had! Just imagine if they were aboard the Mayflower. What fun. We would have seen the complete decimation of the native American Indians. Not the usual half hearted
reservations that exist now. It would have been a complete cleansing.
What a wonderful thought, don't you think?
Its good to talk about "human rights", salvery and all those wonderful
thoughts, keep it up folks. Maybe if anyone listening feels inclined they can come over to Bali and bring the "Natives" enlightenment.

 

[dawnofjedi]

In response to Mr. Mark Wales:

I think it is really easy for you to manipulate the discussion to try and prove your point, but its also really easy to see through that.

Are you actually trying to imply that the modern Western culture of tolerance has anything at all to do with that which conquered the "new world" 500 years ago? I think it is pathetic that you would lump together all the achievements that the West has made on modern human rights since the 1960s with the actions of various European monarchies of many centuries past. And if you want to play that game, then lets take one example of many on the other side, the Mughal conquering of India. Destruction of Buddhist temples that nearly eradicated the religion. I dont believe they succumbed to disease in this case, Mr. Wales, I believe it was the conquering sword of the Mughals, the worst being Aurangzeb, now a central figure in Pakistani nationalism. Hindu and Buddhist temples were destroyed, and there was something called the 'jizya' at that time, a 'head-tax' on non-Muslims. And this is history. In one place. At one time.

But my point is it is a complete manipulation to equate the semi-ancient past with the modern day situation. Talk about American human rights and talk about the pilgrims? I assure you, Mr. Wales, that if you walk down the streets of NYC today you will not see pilgrims oppressing Native Americans. Of course 400 years ago this may have been the case, but how relevant is that in our discussion of today's issues? So why dont we be more realistic here? Why dont we look at how society is now?

The right of self-determination is the fundamental basis of human rights. Freedom to believe what you want to believe without fear of violent suppression. Within a system of reasonable laws of course, we are not talking about anarchy here. So do we want to live in a society where we can form our own opinions? Where we can hear both sides of the story? I will assure you, Mr. Wales, that what I believe in is not imposed to me by my government, religious leaders, or CNN. I am living in a free society where I can look at the media from other nations not my own. I can draw together various sources from facts and opinions broadcast around the world, and then make my decisions. And I am pretty sure that not all people have those rights. In fact, I am positive they dont.

So when I hear about retribution for adultery in Pakistani tribal society being gang rape, I cringe. And when I hear about Taliban rockets destroying ancient Buddhist carvings in Bamayan, it makes me sick. Death penalty for conversion? A ban on music and women doing anything? Moderate professors purged in Iran? This is tolerance? A Palestinian government run by Hamas that won its claim to fame and local support on a legacy of suicide bombings and desire to impose harsh Sharia law (which is often abused at the whim of the judges in the name of the divine)? Shiite and Sunni sectarian death squads roaming the streets of Baghdad? This is enlightenment? And then to know that some of these are the same people that harbored Bin Laden, as a 'guest', while he and his buddies plotted and trained to murder 3000 civilians in my own home city, it actually makes me kind of angry. And in that anger, I think that I am going to stay away from the rioting, beheading, effigy burning, and suicide bombing. I value my life and the lives of others...I dont know where that comes from, maybe my upbringing?

All I can say is that, yeah, it must be great to have such a point of view like you, that us Westerners should not be judging other societies based on our own values. But what is it then, that makes values valuable? Good values. Universal values. Values of freedom and tolerance. But tolerance does not live everywhere. If tolerance is absent, mental slavery ensues. And in order to insure the perpetuation of an intolerant society, violence and suppression is often necessary. I for one am quite happy that I was born in Queens, NY in 1981 and not in 1400s Europe, or 1600s India, or 1930s Germany, or 1990s Afghanistan, or 2006 Pakistan. For anyone that values freedom and individuality, its just common sense.

(and again, I am not generalizing but in my criticisms only referring to fanatics and fanatic dominated societies)

OM MANI PADME HUM

 

[Norm]

Hi "Dawnofjedi",

I always feel uncomfortable addressing someone by a pseudonym, its as if you are not communicating with a real person; it acts like a barrier.

It seems clear that you are angry about the state of the world vis a vis terrorism and that's understandable, particularly for someone from New York. Obviously every New Yorker suffered great loss on 9/11 and I share that suffering with you.

For myself I would rather live in a free society than a fundamentalist society, of that I have no doubt.

Could I just ask you to consider what "Freedom" means particulary "based on our own values" (which you may have been using as a quote) and also what "Tolerance" means. Is it possible that they mean different things in different places?

Tolerance, to me, says we tolerate something; its not as good as us but we will put up with it. And that in part reflects "western" attitudes. I read often that the government of Indonesia gets frustrated and annoyed with Australia's so called "tolerant" attitude; and I understand that. It is really about not being judgemental.

If freedom means having the right to an open well-informed free choice about what you think and what you say then sadly I think it is a scarce commodity in most of the world, including western societies.

Please consider the suggestion that "Muslims are not terrorists" even though those who carried out such a barbaric act as 9/11 were Muslims. You know, the one question that haunts me more than the others is "Why would any young person choose to turn themself into a human bomb". I have not been able to settle on any of the glib answers. I guess I will never know because I am not one of them.

If western society wishes to maintain the high moral ground it needs to come to terms with the proposition that we may not always be right and with a second proposition that we just may need to understand were the other guy is coming from.

Remember I said, "I would rather live in a free society than a fundamentalist society" well sadly I am quite disturbed to feel that the first of those is disappearing faster than the other, by our own action. In the longer term I expect these things will pass and we will be Ok again for a while; but will we ever learn to understand one another.

Dawn, its tough but its possible and surely the first one to try and understand will be the "winner" in my book.

 

[Roy]

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, it seems the US has been struggling with its role within the world. Once the cold war was over, it was, “what do we do now?” Spreading freedom and democracy throughout the world seemed a reasonable idea, and thus was founded the “World Police.”

Whether we like it or not, there is a very strong perception in the world that the US promotes freedom and democracy more by force of arms than by world aid and assistance. Certainly, one accuracy within that larger perception is that the US promotes freedom and democracy on a very selective basis, and only where it serves the “interests of the US.” Those interests increasingly appear to be economic as opposed to a noble ideology of spreading freedom and democracy. Taking the moral high ground is not a commitment that allows for stepping off whenever it is convenient.

Another accurate perception is that the US seems more willing to engage in force than to fully exhaust diplomacy and dialogue. Moreover the reliability of its intelligence to accurately determine a clear and present danger is questionable, as was so painfully demonstrated in Iraq. The war in Iraq was a mistake and to answer that challenge with a retort that the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam was not sufficient justification for the US to take up arms against a sovereign nation.

My thoughts on freedom and democracy is that it cannot be forced fed into cultures that share little or no cultural similarity with the US or the West. Freedom and democracy is earned...it is not a right, but rather a privilege and it is achieved only through the struggles of an oppressed people who are willing to fight to be heard.

I feel very sorry for whoever is elected the next President of the United States. While anticipating that the next President will have a much wiser view of America’s role and responsibility to its world neighbors, that President will be strapped with an awesome job of restoring America’s image in the world. That President will also face the awesome job of rekindling pride and confidence of the American people to replace the fear that grips them today.

 

[Guest]

Re: RE: Pope Benedict and Muslim Reactions

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, it seems the US has been struggling with its role within the world. Once the cold war was over, it was, “what do we do now?” Spreading freedom and democracy throughout the world seemed a reasonable idea, and thus was founded the “World Police.”

Whether we like it or not, there is a very strong perception in the world that the US promotes freedom and democracy more by force of arms than by world aid and assistance. Certainly, one accuracy within that larger perception is that the US promotes freedom and democracy on a very selective basis, and only where it serves the “interests of the US.” Those interests increasingly appear to be economic as opposed to a noble ideology of spreading freedom and democracy. Taking the moral high ground is not a commitment that allows for stepping off whenever it is convenient.

Another accurate perception is that the US seems more willing to engage in force than to fully exhaust diplomacy and dialogue. Moreover the reliability of its intelligence to accurately determine a clear and present danger is questionable, as was so painfully demonstrated in Iraq. The war in Iraq was a mistake and to answer that challenge with a retort that the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam was not sufficient justification for the US to take up arms against a sovereign nation.

My thoughts on freedom and democracy is that it cannot be forced fed into cultures that share little or no cultural similarity with the US or the West. Freedom and democracy is earned...it is not a right, but rather a privilege and it is achieved only through the struggles of an oppressed people who are willing to fight to be heard.

I feel very sorry for whoever is elected the next President of the United States. While anticipating that the next President will have a much wiser view of America’s role and responsibility to its world neighbors, that President will be strapped with an awesome job of restoring America’s image in the world. That President will also face the awesome job of rekindling pride and confidence of the American people to replace the fear that grips them today.

Very interesting argument roy and dawnofjedi. Your thoughts are very well connected and put forward.
Roy,
Why does it seem like i have read what you just wrote in that post somewhere before? You didnt cut and paste it from somewhere did you?
I somewhat disagree with your view of the Iraq war as the only insight and intelligence you have access to is public intelligence and what you read in your newspaper. i see where you are coming from but your reasoning in calling the Iraq war a 'mistake' is a silly one to say the least. It is a fact that the world is a safer place and especially the middle east now that saddam hussein is no longer in power. The bloody aftermath and sectarian violence in Iraq since Hussein's regime fell is just the after effects of US forces occupying Iraq. You say that you moved to Bali to get away from the daily grind and all the mumbo jumbo in the big apple. i do think you have probably been living in Bali too long. But that is a good thing I assume. Iraq is at a turning point and sectarian violence will continue in the country for years to come especially while it is being occupied by foreign troops whether US or NATO forces. Remember that Iraq has a long history of invasions dating as far back as Alexander the Great. It is in the Iraqi's nature to fight an occupier and al qaueda's presence in Iraq is no help either. Instead of having such a negative and unpatriotic view of your motherland try to see the good in what are young brave service men and women are doing over in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are there to help stabilize these countries and help the majority of the people who live there that want to be free and live in a democratic society where women are not stoned to death and children are not killed by radical Jihadists. the people of Iraq have chosen in their votes and the majority of them came to the polls and voted and are happy that 'So Damn Insane' is no longer in power.
Have some patriotism for your country man and dont deny the facts of war and occupying forces in any 'sovreign country'. If you remember one thing remember that Iraq and the middle east were having serious problems way before the first CIA operatives entered Iraq in 2002. Do you still remember how to sing the star spangled banner and remember the words in it? Your fore fathers fought for freedom and liberty for all people in the greatest nation on earth, but yet you seem to have this 'willy nilly' attitude about a country that you should be grateful to have been born in. There is a lot you need to learn and be grateful for, son.
...."in the land of the free and the home of the brave." Amen!

 

[Roy]

Wow, it would seem I am being accused of plagiarism and of being unpatriotic all in the same post! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Rafeal I assure you 100% that those words are mine, written just this morning and honestly expressing my thoughts of the current administration of the US.

Yes, I am familiar with the poem “Defense of Fort McHenry,” written by Francis Scott Key in 1814 during the war of 1812, which was a war in defense of British aggression against the United States. I always found it an historical oddity that it wasn’t adopted as the national anthem under the title The Star-Spangled Banner until 1931, by an act of Congress.

Patriotism comes in many forms my friend, including just criticism of the path one’s homeland has taken in recent years. Questioning another person’s patriotism under the guise of being a patriot is defeatist to all the principles under which the United States was founded.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Rafael,
I think you are barking up the wrong tree with Roy...His views are different than yours and sometimes mine but they are honest views to be debated not cast aside as unpatriotic. I believe Roy to be very proud of the United States, simply not proud of our current president. My best friend hates this president but that doesn't make him a bad citizen.

Bert has been kind enough to allow us a bit of his forum to play on...not fight, even though sometimes it looks like it. The rules are pretty simple... Godwin rules apply. Solid debating with the intent to actually learn something gains extra points. Calling anyone names (unpatriotic without supporting documentation, killer, racist, Bush McCHIMP, homophobe, Islamophobe,nutwing, tinfoilhat brigader, plagarist, etc) loses points. If possible or appropriate, you supply links to the URL's that you are using. If something should not be said in public then you pm or e-mail the other person. Punctuation doesn't count and can't be used to put another person down. This is a multiple language forum where many posters don't speak English as their first language so we should encourage them not discourage them.....That just about covers it...

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Mark,
Thrice asked and thrice denied. *sigh*
I see that you are having difficulty knowing what is right or wrong and that perplexes me. One of the major considerations in finding a person criminally insane is if the person has the ability to decide right from wrong.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... sanity.htm
So is it that you can't tell the difference or you refuse to make a decision?

So are you in such a moral quicksand that you can't take a stand on anything? Not even to say that slavery is bad?

You seem to like poetry and your responses bring an old poem to mind, one of the first I learned as a boy:

"The Distracted Centipede

A centipede was happy quite,
Until a frog in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?"
This raised her mind to such a pitch,
She lay distracted in the ditch
Considering how to run."

Perhaps you should think on this and your ability to see what is right and wrong.

 

[Guest]

Roy,
You are absolutely correct that patriotism comes in many forms. i take back what I said about you being unpatriotic if that changes anything. Sometimes i reply to posts while doing three things at once and not fully looking over what someone else wrote and even what i wrote for that matter. I didnt mean to come across condescending either because I have had one to many drinks tonite, and well the dark liquor does that to me. I will try to be more responsible in the future when posting on this forum and not single out anyone because i simply wouldnt want someone to do it to me unless i deserved it. I feel that so many people in this country have lost their sense of patriotism though, and justly so with the foreign policy blunders that are being committed by the cabinet. It has been over two years and finally we are sending a special envoy to Darfur after half a million have died already. When will this president learn and stop trying to be some modern day Winston Churchill.

 

[Mark Wales]

Thanks for the brickbats. The enlightening conversation, the accusations flying thick and fast. The question and perceptions of slavery, patriotism and personal freedom. If some of you really feel so strongly about these
views and that the world really needs all the change , then go out and change it. Go to all countries you so animately talk about and work there to help the people to realise "your perceptions" of the world and how it ought to be. I shall be with you scuttling behind like my street dog-Laxmi!
Yes I agree with all of you. Everyone is right. Just a suggestion - read Ghosh's Diary of his short stay in Iraq. The latest TIME has readers comments. I couldn't but feel sick in the stomach. It reminded me of the time my father lost his business partner to a roving group of Naxals(communists uprising in Calcutta in the early 70s) he was hacked down in the street. Yes I agree with all your views. Everyone is right including the
President of Iran - read his interview - a dangerous mind TIME latest issue.

 

[Jimbo]

Go to all those countries and try to change them WOW what a statement. In many of those countries there is not even free speech for their own let alone a do gooder foreigner. It is neither practical nor will it achieve much. I have lived and worked in 41 countries and have changed only in a small way the thinking of people who I have met and in many cases not at all do to speaking out of turn could cost me my life.

Today I am in the Yemen where yesterday they had a

Far better to pressurise one's own government to use their power to change.

 

[Jimbo]

cont. election. What did I do to influence this.......nothing. I hid in my hotel room all day as they were killing people out side. The opposition were fighting abot corruption in the present government. I did nothing.....very wisely in my wifes opinion because she believes I should look after me and mine before going out crusading (no puns intended) for others.

 

[Jimbo]

Just as an aside slavery was finally abolished by the muslim kingdom of SA in the early seventies.....Just a thought as is the muslim domination of slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Lots of cartoons showing the pope as Hitler in local middle east papers. Care for a boycott or worldwide uproar.

Bah Humbug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Roy]

Thanks Jim for your support and thanks Rafael for your retraction. Jimbo, I hope you are out of Yemen soon.

 

[irma1812]

Re: RE: Pope Benedict and Muslim Reactions

You know, the one question that haunts me more than the others is "Why would any young person choose to turn themself into a human bomb". I have not been able to settle on any of the glib answers. I guess I will never know because I am not one of them.

This is the one question that haunts me the most too Norm! Maybe it's because of the way they've been "brainwashed" since they're born? Who knows. But there are more & more western countries "home-grown" extremists, WHY?!?! :?

 

[Guest]

Roy,
It was not a retraction of words but an apology for jumoing to conclusions and calling you unpatriotic. Once again sorry mate.

Mark Wales,
I am assuming you must be educated in something or other. Am I correct?
You still havent answered the simple question that Jim Thorpe asked you. Why? Are you embarrassed to admit that you are wrong and unwilling to see things from a different perspective or do you honestly feel that you are right? It is one thing to have your own opinion but whether your opinion is factual and representative of the truth is another issue all together. You have to support the things that you state with reasoning, precedent, and facts otherwise your opinion wont mean much. I cannot just into court and try to appeal for an expungement for a clients case without facts and precedent just like you cannot simply state how your opinion without some kind of backing, precedent, or simple facts.
So lets try one more time Mr. Mark:

Is a culture that values slavery better or worse than a culture that is against it? It shouldn't be that hard of question to answer.

 

[Tony]

"Have some patriotism for your country man and dont deny the facts of war and occupying forces in any 'sovreign country'. If you remember one thing remember that Iraq and the middle east were having serious problems way before the first CIA operatives entered Iraq in 2002. Do you still remember how to sing the star spangled banner and remember the words in it? Your fore fathers fought for freedom and liberty for all people in the greatest nation on earth, but yet you seem to have this 'willy nilly' attitude about a country that you should be grateful to have been born in. There is a lot you need to learn and be grateful for, son.
...."in the land of the free and the home of the brave." Amen![/quote]


"I didnt mean to come across condescending either..."

That last statement is quite hilarious, given the previous quote of your's above. Not only was it condescending...but equally offensive. You have obviously been coached in the finer points of public relations and human discourse by your self-proclaimed "good friend", Senator "Maccaca" Allen.

You've had a lot to say around here for the past couple of weeks. On virtualy all of it, I disagree and precious few facts seem to support. That said...no one here, including myself, has called your understanding of global politics into question in such a way as you have just called out other's and their patriotism. Blaming it on the drink is a cop out.

Now that I have most likely insulted you, allow me to take the opportunity to also thank you for your previous service to your country. Let me also remind you that patriotism, at least in the USA, first found form in the revolutionary attitudes and actions of those demanding accountability and representaion from their former leaders. That spirit remains strong today with many of us who question the direction of the USA and it policies, as someone else said previously, very selective policies, when it comes to spreading and attempting to enforce some semblance of democracy around the globe. The current leadership has made many extreme attempts to label disagreement or calls for transparency & accountability as unpatriotic. They are WRONG.

In many parts of this great big world, people have very little experience with personal freedom after generations of being told what to think, what to read,how to act, etc... As a result, they are ill prepared for the responsibilities that come with the freedom of living within a democratic state. I will point to Indonesia as a prime example of this theory, since we ARE on a forum that pertains to BALI. Attempts at bring/enforce democracy via military action, in these cases, are surely doomed in the short term. I can think of no examples in recent or distant history where the long term has proved successful either. Still, my mind remains open and I anxiously await the next opportunity for you to take glass in hand, press fingers to keyboard and save me from my igorance.

 

[Roy]

Maybe I can mediate here a little bit, and hopefully do so without appearing to be making excuses for Rafael or patronizing him.

Personally, I tend to cut Vietnam vets a whole lot of slack when it comes to discussions of politics and the past and present role of the US military. Many of those men and women never came home to the hero’s welcome and ticker tape parades that my dad and uncles did after WWII. Rather, many of the Vietnam vets came home to cries of “baby killer” and “murderer.” I can’t imagine how that must have felt, particularly for the non career military personnel who made up the vast majority of the forces during the Vietnam War. These were just everyday young men and women, most of the men having been drafted into service, and they did serve, only to come home and be criticized.

As I stated in another post, I have many friends who were veterans of that war. One in particular was a second lieutenant Marine at Khe Sanh in 1968, who lost his entire platoon. He was the only survivor of his platoon that he commanded. To this day, he constantly wrestles with guilt, depression and alcoholism. Every Memorial Day he visits the wall, and every year he writes to all the families of his platoon...seeking their forgiveness. I’ve read many of their replies, and of course they have all forgiven him, moreover, they pray for him just as they do their lost sons, brothers and husbands. The issue is, he can not forgive himself. Most Vietnam vets that I’m close to have that same inner struggle between what they know should be the satisfaction and pride that comes with service, and a nagging guilt for having done so. Many that I know have never been able to answer the question, “why?”

In many respects, it is the surviving vets, especially those who actively engaged in combat, that are the living casualties of the Vietnam War. They live with the demons from that war daily, and time has not healed many of them. For many, their only source of solace is with other Vietnam vets. Once again, I’m not making excuses for Rafael, but I can understand his point of view, and where he may be coming from.

Some of the most outspoken critics of the current war in Iraq in Congress are Vietnam vets. Then again, some of the strongest supporters are also Vietnam vets. That makes sense to me, as in the end, each man and woman who was there has to find their own way of resolving this inner conflict, or they remain like my friend, the Marine second lieutenant.

As for my friend, he is a staunch critic of current American foreign policy, especially as that policy seems to often put young men and women in harm’s way for nothing. As he would put it, he doesn’t wish his life on anyone, unless there are damn good reasons, clear objectives and complete support of the American people, as in the first Gulf War to free the people of Kuwait.

As for Rafael, I hope he would agree that opinions within his veteran comrades differ, likely, just as they do here in the opinions already expressed. That’s OK in my book. That’s just part of the human experience. Ideally, this expression of varied opinions makes us wiser...if we listen to them.

 

[Tony]

No mediation necessary, Roy. I've had my say and that's that. Now the sleeping dog shall lie...

Perhaps my ire was provoked beyond reason and perhaps not. The truth is, every time I turn on a television, a radio, pick up a newspaper, read an internet forum, etc., I am subjected to a whole gaggle of screeching waterheads proffering opinion & foaming at the mouth, on & on about how much safer the world is now thanks to you know who. By god...if that's the claim your gonna drill us with, show me the data...the factual data to back it up. Believe me, I've looked for any factual evidence from the news around the globe to support this claim and can find none, zero, zilch...

OK...fangs are now retracted, my venom gland drained...

Over & out... anybody want to discuss Bali? That is, afterall, what we come here for, isn't it? Most of us at least...?

 

[Roy]

OK...fangs are now retracted, my venom gland drained...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Better to keep your positive energy fixed on Bali....a PM to follow.