Pope Benedict and Muslim Reactions

[tintin]

Oom Bert,

What happened to my post, the one following Jim Thorpe's at the bottom of Page 1? It went away when you changed the title of this sting to the present title.

 

[Roy]

Dawn, that was a great post, or as Jim put it, a superb example of “wordsmithing.” Well done...selamat!

In your post, you wrote:

So I'll just say in conclusion, the Pope should be allowed to speak without having to apologize. He is entitled to his rights and opinion as a human being.

That is not correct. The pope is considered by Catholics as the direct successor of Saint Peter, who was the apostle directed by Christ to continue his work on earth. The office of the pontiff is held to be a direct link to the word of God, and as such, the responsibilities of that office transcends the human element. The pope is NOT entitled to “his rights and opinion as a human being.” In fact, he abdicated those rights when he became pope.

I agree 100% that he should not have to apologize for words he simply quoted. He has apologized for the reaction to those words, and the misunderstanding of those words, and that was appropriate.

 

[Mark Wales]

Honey am home! The errant sheep from Wales has come to graze in this paradise!

I have read the entries in this Log and feel as an outstanding christian (one who stands outside the church when mass is on) that the Pontiff should be more concerned about selling all the church's gold to feed the world's poor and to bringing faiths together not by voicing what the history
has told us but by making history with the preachings of christ of love, peace and forgiveness. Violence doesn't come from nowhere. It stems from a clash of cultures.

On a lighter note - picture a beatiful bikin clad woman walking down a beach in Hawaii and then picture her walking on a beach in some countries where the dress code is black (head to toe).

The truth is that we are all guilty of imposing our ideals on cultures because we assume it is "better than" others. The resultant resentment acts as a trigger. The rest we know.

Incidentally the bombings in my home city - Bombay- was the work of a Ganglord who fell out of favour with our Indian politicians and left the country only to hit back in the most horrible way (using excuses to disguise the criminal murder of innocent people including my friends).
Didn't Osama Bin Laden do business with the Bushes prior to becoming what he is? I am not suggesting anything more than what has happened
and is happening.

I understand the feelings of resentment but by poisoning ourselves we are inadvertently poisioning future generations.

I expect some replies to this post to be vehement and "gung-ho".
That's natural from people still trying to understand the "new world order"
that is emerging.

On a lighter note - love the traffic from oberoi's to Bintang - so much like a small town in Gujarat ( where the autorikshaw drivers use their outstretched legs to indicate which side they are turning the vehicle!)

Namaste

 

[Sanurian]

Hey Jim

Thanks for your fairytale analogy. I agree with you that it wasn't perfect. And the pope drives around in an airconditioned bullet-proof Mercedes Benz, doesn't he? Or is he slumming it these days? I'd love to see the day when he rides a donkey. Could be good for public relations rather than mindless pontificating from the Vatican machine.

What's this:?

...I think you may have set the bar too high for the muslim community...

I thought most Moslems pretend they don't drink so where is this "bar" you refer to? And how do you think a cartoon depicting the pope being crucified would go down? Maybe the pope and Mel Gibson could have a great time getting stuck into the altar wine.

You suggest that:

...The pope didn't say anything wrong...

It's your prerogative to defend the pope but from what coverage I've seen, I think he was both wrong and insensitive. He should have known better. The pope is not a deity - he's a person, like the rest of us. I'm not convinced that he's "holier" than anybody else. I get the feeling that you think he's incapable of doing or saying anything wrong. I disagree.

"God is on my side, too."

:evil:

 

[Roy]

Phil, I think that ever since the assassination attempt on Pope Paul in 1981 the Swiss Guard, who is obligated to protect the pope, has insisted on better personal protection for the pontiff.

I don’t see that as cause for ridicule, as you seem to embrace, but rather common sense.

If you recall your history accurately, you will recall that the pontiff forgave his would be Turkish assassin and embraced him even after being shot by him.

What a shame that those great moments in our recent history are already forgotten

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Hey Phil,
I thought my Ford analogy was pretty funny though but as we both agree not perfect. But if competing religions, or theologians can't discuss aspects of other religions then what the have is just bavardage, or idle chatter accomplishing nothing. My ex-professor would call it mental masturbation! You are very mistaken in how I view the pope and I have my own complaints about the vatican so don't paint me with that brush.
But how would a picture of the pope crucified go over? Considering how here in the states they have sold out artistic displays of the crucifix in urine, the virgin mary made out of cow dung and other equally nasty things, without a single killing in response, I would think that a pope snuff film would go over ok and make quite a bit of money for somebody.
Obviously you have a beef with the Catholic church that you are trying to take out on others. Your expectation that the pope apologize for a quote taken out of context to a group of people that regularly call for the deaths of infidels, who thry consider unclean and are apes and pigs I find funny.

While I was raised in a religious household, I consider myself a C&E christian (christmas and Easter). You're feelings are wrong regarding how I think of the pope.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Mark,
Perhaps if you didn't have posts that are so filled with hubris that others wouldn't post the "gung-ho" replies.

Let me ask you a simple polite question. Everything else being equal, is a culture that values slavery better or worse than a culture that works to defeat slavery?

Thanks!

 

[JAMIE]

The bottom line for me is that the pope said nothing really wrong , he owes no apology for what he said . If the muslim world is really concerned with what others are saying bout thier creed , then its time for " the god loving muslims" to purge the ranks and help find the "bad guys" who hide as muslims . MY TWO CENTS ...

 

[JAMIE]

Furthermore I wouldnt piss the Catholics off , they are over due for a crusade ..look what they did last time !!! Roy can I get an amen on that?

 

[Roy]

Furthermore I wouldnt piss the Catholics off , they are over due for a crusade ..look what they did last time !!! Roy can I get an amen on that?

An amen? I don't know. Did three centuries of nine crusades really accomplish all that much?

 

[tintin]

I have read with interest this whole string (and even contributed (?) once to it). I find the debate typical, and a blatant example of why things on earth are the way they are. And to think that these present exchanges are taking place inside what I would consider an enlighten group...

When most people think of “crusades,” they think of the military expeditions, of which there were only seven principle ones, to Palestine. What most people forget is that the “crusades” from the 11th to the 16th century number in the hundred! Many were not sanctioned by the pope, but most of them were, against all sorts of “evil” people, as far as Scandinavia and the Caucasus. All were a joke, an excuse to slaughter, pillage, and rape. Look, for example, at the massacres of European Jews by the crusaders, as they passed through Europe: they were practicing, I guess. Or the “Children Crusade,” when the children who made the crossing and survived were sold as slaves to the locals in Palestine. One of the most famous crusades is the Spanish inquisition.

The whole story of humanity is a story of religious wars in the name of God. Which God? My God who is the REAL one. Etc, etc.

If Karl Marx ever said something of value for all ages, he wrote it in his Contribution to Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right: "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" (“Religion is the opium of the people"). And that goes fro ALL the religions, bar none.

Amen.

 

[Tim]

That's it in a nutshell Daniel.....

 

[Norm]

To me the whole group of issues regarding terrorists, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, imperialism, religion; the Pope, Bush and bin Laden is a highly complex, emotive and subjective issue. There is no solution! It's about people; it's about respect; it's about comprehension amongst many other things.

People are very strange ceatures; have you not noticed? When we try to paint them all the same or even put them into various boxes it just does not work. What makes one young man from Birmingham UK feel so strongly about something that he decides to become a human bomb? What makes one young man, who is stationed in a foriegn country, take part in a gang rape of an innocent young girl then kill her to hide the evidence. Why do some people "see beyond the horizon" whilst others cannot "see the wood for the trees".

Respect is partly about accepting that you or I may not be perfect or even right in our views and that perhaps the other guy, as stupid as it seems, may just have some valid points. No-one; no religion; no leader can be right all the time. This leads me to question the basis of fundamentalism. How can fundamentalist views be reasonable? And that surely applies to any religion or philosohy. Facts are facts by definition but what the fundamentalists do is often, too often, confuse dogma with facts. It seems to me that most religions fail in this regard. I am not irreligious or anti-religious but to me, sadly perhaps, none of them make much sense.

Comprehension is simply about accepting that all that we know is just that "all that we know". We know what we see and hear and we know what we are told. That forms the knowledge upon which we base decisions, opinions and upon which we take actions. Sadly an increasing amount of "what we know" is feed to us by those with vested interests of various kinds. In Australia the printed media is appalling and electronic media in some areas is even worse. We have leaders who outright lie - for political gain they tell us that refugees threw their own children into the sea, knowing it to be untrue. After retirement they acknowledge the untruth of the story. The same with Iraq and WMDs or links between Hussein and bin Laden. To paraphrase "truth is the first casualty of politics".

Democracy is no longer about government of the people; for the people; by the people - it is about maintaining power at all costs. Power comes from controlling peoples comprehension; make them believe you irrespective of the truth or justice.

I do not blame Ali in the streets of Teheran for believing what he does; he only knows what he knows. I do not blame Fred in Iowa for believing what he does. I do blame those who knowingly manipulate what I am made to think and what others are made to think.

To end this ramble on a positive note I am an optimist; all things will pass, but if only we would learn from them.

 

[Mark Wales]

Let me ask you a simple polite question. Everything else being equal, is a culture that values slavery better or worse than a culture that works to defeat slavery?

Oh East is East and West is West and nere the twain shall meet
Till earth and sky stand presently at God's great judgement seat
But there is neither East nor West, border nor breed nor birth
Till two strong men stand face to face
though they come from the ends of the earth.

Ballad of the East and West - Rudyard kipling

Namaste.[/quote]

 

[dandan]

An amen? I don't know. Did three centuries of nine crusades really accomplish all that much?
Ummm, Those olden times crusades sort of of helped set things up as they are today didnt they?

To this pope I am indifferent,
Beware the polarising influence of the media: the Australian TV news sort of made it sound like [muslim] people were rioting in Indonesia in response to old Ben's speech. Which has the effect of fanning the flames of fear [of Muslims] for the people who watch the news in Australia.

It is just So easy to just believe what one sees on the television. The problem is, the media seems to thrive on BAD news , and will go to great lengths to present a story in a way that has maximum emotional impact on the viewers. Without regards for the truth it often seems. Balanced reporting[ presenting the whole story from all concerned points of view] just doesnt sell papers, or win TV ratings.

It is my belief that the fanatical, bloodthirsty muslim is most likely in the minority.
And before anyone says something like " O yeah? then what about 9/11 ?" There are a hell of a lot of unhappy citizens on planet earth at the moment -why?, it seems to me that some countries might be living at the expense of others and not playing fair.


[/quote]

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Mark,
Again, I politely ask; Everything else being equal, is a culture that values slavery better or worse than a culture that works to defeat slavery?

 

[JAMIE]

ROY / dan dan is was cracking wise with my amen comment . And I agree with you (dandan) that the last crusade has set the religous stage that we currantly have . In my paper today , the headline reads " AL-QAIDA in Iraq vows Islam will take over the world " ..AL-QAIDA is calling out for the death of the pope .. I worry that if this climite continues the "pc' mentallity will cease and the real blood shed will begine . This is what I ment by my crusade crack .

 

[Jim Thorpe]

The question not mentioned in these threads is: Why was there a crusade? Muslim extremists and Mark Wave have brought it out as a reason for the anymosity toward the west but how did lslam spread to Italy? Southern Spain?Turkey? France? Was it through the effective use of Islamic missionaries? Good will gestures that prompted mass conversion to the religion of peace?
Both sides have history of good and bad behaviour but to say that one side had a monopoly on violence is incorrect. It is not by chance that many mosques are built over the ruins of churches.
I suggest the pope apologize in the Blue Mosque in Istanbul during the sermon portion of a Catholic mass, since it was actually built as a church.

 

[Norm]

Hi Jim,

If I could have a go at your slavery comment. I do not believe that there can be a "True" answer. Even accepting the fact that all things are never equal.

My personal view of slavery is that surely it must be totally abhorent; how can one human own another? I have never and could never employ a servant in the traditional sense because I would value that person too much as an individual and it would probably make for a difficult relationship. But I do not expect anyone to think the way that I think, they are not me and I cannot be them.

My mother said she was a slave of the mill owner from whom she felt there could be no escape. How could she survive without the mill; there was no other way she could feed her kids. My grandfather was only a wee lad when his parents effectively sold him to the mine-owners and he had to stay for many years.

In other parts of the world people do not have my views, because they are not me. I would hate to be a slave of any sort but I don't even know any slaves so I cannot try to presume how one would feel. But just for arguments sake what if the slave felt himself to be more fortunate than some because he has the opportunity to live and to be valued; that being a slave is normal to him; that this is his lot in life and he knows of no other; possibly he may feel it is the only way that he can survive. Would you free him to his death?

The equivalent of my mum's mill and granddad's mine still exist but today we call it globalisation. In some ways this is every bit as insidious as what you would call slavery. Sadly in some ways this goes against Mark Wales quote of Kipling because the two strong men are not equal; they are grossly unequal.

I agree wholeheartedly that we should be "defeating slavery" but let's defeat a few other demons on the way.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Norm,
I appreciate your response. There is a reason I ask the question and am waiting for a response from Mark Wave. He says :
"The truth is that we are all guilty of imposing our ideals on cultures because we assume it is "better than" others."

Earlier in our discussion of Islam, I state that I do not believe all cultures are equal. I still stand by that statement. I am not talking about a comparison to slavery as you suggest in the mill scenario but true slavery. The basic tenets of modern western thought is based on individual freedom. If you don't believe in it then you will allow that current slave to stay a slave. If you believe in freedom and liberty then you will make a system to allow this person to survive in a free status, understanding that his children will presumably be better off. I appreciate the predicament that the thankful slave is under but I suggest that this may not be the case for the majority of slaves. You will not find me arguing on the side of pro-slavery. We can think up scenarios all we want but I think if we held a poll, no one on this forum would want to be a slave. I don't think you have to be a slave nor know one to believe these basic human right principles.
So to put it back in the question: Is a culture that values slavery better or worse than a culture that is against it? It shouldn't be that hard of question to answer.
So in the end, this question is not about slavery nor the need for us to go out today and defeat it. It is about the ability to see what is right and what is wrong. If we can't agree that slavery is wrong and that a culture that values slavery is a lesser culture, then that certainly changes the tone of the debate, wouldn't you think so? If someone doesn't agree with the basic principles of modern human rights, then I think the discussion will be limited.
There are many wonderful cultures and lands out there but there are some that aren't. If we are not willing to recognize this then what have we become as a people?