Mixed Marriages

[drbruce]

I'm taking Roy up on his comment to Jimbo about starting a new thread about mixed marriages.

Just to get the ball rolling, I agree with Jimbo on this one, Roy. After 17 years of living in Asia (13 in Indonesia, 4 in Pakistan), I've seen far more mixed marriages fail than succeed - unfortunately. I've been doing some surfing looking for statistics (the math/social studies/computer teacher in me just has to come out), but haven't been able to find much. Thus, I can only go on personal experience, word of mouth. I'm not restricting myself to Indonesia on this, but including my experiences/contacts in other parts of SE Asia as well.

As for local experiences, I've run in to far too many situations where the Indonesian partner (male and female both) have either had a pacar before the marriage to an expat, or obtained one later on in the relationship. A lot of this, as seems obvious to me, revolves around money and age. A young girl/guy marries an older expat for one reason or another (I'm not discounting love as one of the factors) and then grows apart as you might find anywhere, or just wants to hang out with younger people, or there are fights about money (he/she is not getting what they consider their due from their expat partner which leads to bad words/ feelings, and things go downhill from there. Oh yes, family too. Those of us who have married into Asian families have seen the good and the bad of having a large (often needy, sometimes greedy) group of family members who see the bule as the golden goose.

Regarding Roy's characterization of Western women, well, I think that is fairly stereotypical for the male expat living over in Asia. Take a look at some of the expat forums about Thailand - you see that characterization far too often.

Now, all this being said, I'm coming up on my 16th anniversary with Suhanah in December so, yes, I think that it can work. We have a number of forum members who have long term mixed marriages. And yes, it can be incredibly interesting and wonderful. I love my wife more and more each day. But, we've been through periods over the past 16 years where one of us had the bags packed and ready to go usually because of a cross-cultural misunderstanding, but also because of interference from family or neighbors who were iri hati.

Ok, I have to teach right now, but I'd be interested in seeing the responses here.

 

[Ipanema]

Bruce

Can I ask waht a 'pacar' is.

 

[drbruce]

Tina,

A girlfriend/boyfriend.

 

[smusdar]

Those of us who have married into Asian families have seen the good and the bad of having a large (often needy, sometimes greedy) group of family members who see the bule as the golden goose.

too bad that happen on expat (here refer to expatriate or foreigner live/ stay in Indonesia) persons (men or women).

Hm, as an ASIAN woman, well, personally or not it disgrace my pride as person or as nation (I know it sound too dramatic, Nation? come on??)..what i can proud of as indonesian? we are poor person and not has good attitude, live in a corrup country ?

In another forum, expat man give his comment, a stereotype of Indo (hereinafter referred to "Indonesia") women, he said Indo women are cheap, unwelleducated (not all person can speak ENglish or other foreign language), a gold -digger type, only see expat as gold goose etc etc.. Or if you married to indo women be ready to dig up your pocket not only for her but also for the whole family..

Or just happen on my sister's friend who live in Balikpapan, a 50's-French male married to a girl he met in club, he has (i dont know it is true or not) vision to change that poor girl from a teen-prostitute girl to be a good woman..so he dare to marry that girl..
But after a couple hours she doesnt change to be a good person, even this guy has convert to her religion, and give opportunity to be a good person, give money to have own business, but the girl become totally greedy and ungrateful one. she forget where she come from?

My comment on that unfortunate expat men is "what's wrong with them or what wrong with their relationship" Does the relationship is an EQUAL relationship like normal people have ?
Does that relationship really BUILD ON A GENUINE love, a genuine understanding?

Of course I get mad..You can NOT make that generalization, cause Indo women has so many charesteristic..there are still a few good indo person, a person who has pride as honest person, and hold tight a good moral and value

Well, as mature person, I am sure, when you certainly make decision to involve in a relationship, whether it is with someone has same nation or not, you has take ALL the risk, all the consequence of it.

I know love is everything, and also chemistry or strong feeling, but when you decide to marry some one (a lifetime agreement), you should know the person well, he or she will be your lifetime partner liveing in below same roof..

 

[Jimbo]

I will add my experiences at a later stage when I have some more time. I would like to make things clear from the start that my experiences are not about Balinese women in particular nor even Indonesians but about the many countries I have lived and worked in.

I will state the problems that lead up to the break ups and also what IMO keeps people together.

Talk to you soon.

 

[Roy]

I would like to make things clear from the start that my experiences are not about Balinese women in particular nor even Indonesians but about the many countries I have lived and worked in

Who cares Jimbo? Last I checked, this forum was about Bali, and the Balinese. This same comment could easily be directed to Dr. Bruce.

For several hours since Dr. Bruce made his first post here, I went through the list of every expat foreigner I know and checked on their current marital status.

They are happy, happy, happy, and the mixes are Balinese, other Indonesians, and other Asians. The idea, or the proposition that mixed marriage are more likely to fail is total bullshit in my humble opinion.

 

[charlie]

The break downs in marriages that i have witnessed asian/western and western/western all had common denominators

- lack of understanding
- closed mindedness
- lack of respect
- unwillingness to understand where the other person is coming from
- breakdown in communication

I do appreciate that there are marriages that are based on the gold digger theory in asia but they do happen in western cultures aswell. The secretary marrying her much older millionaire CEO as one example.

Marriages need to be worked at no matter what culture you marry into.

 

[irma1812]

Charlie, you've made some good points there.

Having lived in UK for 20 yrs I have seen many relationship break-ups, all were not mixed. The difference between East & West could be that Eastern people tend to put more effort into their relationships. That is the ones who are genuine, not the "gold-digger" types, which of course exist in any cultures!

Not with intention to generalise too much, I do have to partly agree with Roy that Asian women tend to treat men as "men", they seem to be more understanding/sensitive towards men. There is also a lack of respect between men & women in the western society, unfortunately.

As some of you may already know, my English husband & I have been together for about 18 yrs. Been tough at times, but we got there in the end! Thank God!

 

[dandan]

Good points indeed charlie.
I think most people would have heard some sort of horror story about a mixed marriage breakup.However, are mixed marriages MORE LIKELY to end in divorce than same same marriages?
Well what are some statistics on this? Just off the top of my head I think that the Australian divorce rate is 50% or something like that .So how do we find out some statistics on mixed marriages in Bali, Indonesia and even worldwide?Its probably beyond our means to gather this info , although it would probably make an interesting topic for a documentary or short film...
So I guess what Im trying to say is that as we dont seem to have any data available , it comes down to the opinion of the individual .
Personally , almost all of my friends parents , and my own are divorced, and I used to think that ALL marriages were more likely to fail.
Having grown up a little and seen a few beautiful married couples with beautiful little children absorbing and radiating love I have to say that even though marriages often fail [mixed or otherwise], its great when they dont. And personally I think that even if most mm's do fail, then it's not unique to mm's anyway,perhaps more a sign of the times? [people wanting more and not settling for 2nd best, or perhaps taking the easy option, depending on your point of view.]
sorry if I went a little OT there.

 

[dandan]

that link on smusdars last post
http://cute-sari.blogs.friendster.com/cutesari/
discusses a book about mixed marriages. would be an interesting read.
I think its written in indonesian though...

 

[smusdar]

I agree with charlie

Mixed or not Mixed marriage, need effort from both party to make it works.

(hm, have never been in marriage before, but sometime give advice to my colleague..I know it it easier to give advice, but very hard when we face that real marriage problem)

Yes Dandan, we see many fail marriage, but after see my sisters' ones, then it change my self..
I have 3 (elder) sisters, 2 of them married to foreigners (they never stay or work in Indonesia) after having more than 2 years long distance relationship..so far, thanks God they marriage run smoothly.

My sister even voluntarily "sacrifice" her career as editor in Jakarta and move to live with her hubbie.

that link on smusdars last post
http://cute-sari.blogs.friendster.com/cutesari/
discusses a book about mixed marriages. would be an interesting read.
I think its written in indonesian though...

Hi dandan, You read my blog ? please give comment which one is your favorite ?

BTW about the book, i have posting in this forum, one in bahasa forum.
That book released on April 2006 in Indonesia written in Bahasa Indonesia (the marketing target is Indo women to make them prepare about mixed marriage), and one of the contributor is my elder sister, she also now member of this forum. In Melbourne as columnist of OZIP magazine (oops sorry guys.. too OOT-out of the topic)

 

[JAMIE]

I have to agree with DR Bruce on this one . Its bad enough being a couple when all things are equal , same creed , religion and age group . Toss in culture, age and race factors and the going must get tough during the down times in a relationship. To further my thought on the subject, now sprinkle in a monetary mindset difference and the fact that an expat is a stranger in a strange land ...seems common sense to me ...a little background on myself , Im with my wife for 20 years and we have had our ups and downs , like every one else . Charlie ...you guys seem like a nice young couple, take your own advice and you'll live together as best friends ...by the way you do have nice teeth ...

 

[Lee]

If we knew the statistics on mixed marriage break ups, it would be interesting to know what the the ratio of the breakups are between western men with Balinese /Indonesian women or western women with Balinese/Indonesian men.

I’m not saying if I think mixed marriages fail more than same culture marriages, cause I really don’t know. But I do think that there are extra hurdles to jump with mixed marriages especially when one partner is living in a foreign culture and the other partner has never experience their partners culture.

I have been married now for 9 years, and it has required a lot of communication, respect for the other culture from both parties, (but it is harder when the partner hasn’t experience a western culture) and Compromise.

Most of the issues we have are over the traditional role of a woman in the village after marriage with all of the ceremonies, and maybe more importantly the preparations (Gotong Royong) before hand. The women have the most work to do and it is endless, ceremony after ceremony. I think it is difficult for a western woman not bought up in this culture to take on this role completely, and any that do (to the extent that Balinese woman do) well done, because it is just too much for me.

I am lucky in that my husbands family are fairly understanding of this and my mother in law helps me out with this, if I was Balinese I would never be able to get away with what I do (or not do in this case).

The marriages I know of that have broken down are when the Balinese husband has taken on an extra wife :evil: (usually behind his first wife’s back). This is one big cultural issue that is hard to handle for the expat woman. Heaven help my husband should he ever do this.

 

[Jimbo]

Who cares Jimbo?

The idea, or the proposition that mixed marriage are more likely to fail is total bullshit.

Typical of you Roy and the part I dislike at about you the most. If your mouth was as closed as your mind it might be better. You do not even listen to what I was going to say before you attack.

I no longer care what you think, what your opinions are or anything else you have to say on any subject. You can have as many last words as you like on this subject because for me you have nothing more to offer

 

[matsaleh]

Jimbo, please ignore Roy's remarks. :evil:

I think it's fair to say that the rest of us would like to hear your opinion on why there are more difficulties in mixed marriages, so please elaborate.

 

[charlie]

yes jimbo, please elaborate ......

 

[Unique]

When for the first time I am posting to comment about my younger sister’s idea –about my mix marriages preference book launching –one of the Bali Expat members from British releases her statement that this issue is not a something new. Therefore, based from her opinion, why we still talking about that –mix marriages. However, on the other hand –as long as—people still as a human or a social person, there is a lot of problems will be happen surrounding us. So, based from this nature experiences, I hope we can learn and not easily give up when the difficult times through in our marriages lives. Life is too short to thing about this just kidding, pls cheer up guys... 8)

"Moral behavior is not irrational. The challenge is to define self-interest in a manner capacious enough to accommodate the real motives for people's choices.” (Robert H. Frank)

 

[dandan]

I wasnt going to say anything but maybe Roy just feels defensive about this topic [understandably] and reacted a little too harshly, I hope you continue to participate Jimbo .

 

[pooochie]

Hi Bapak Jimbo

I hate to see my two favourite Elders fighting.

I think Oom Roy was just a bit upset anyway when he wrote the post and unfortunately you were the victim. He had a tiff with Oom Bert and has had two threads removed from the forum. I do hope Oom Roy is not considering quitting over this as we have seen too many forum members quit over censorship.

Hi Oom Roy

I did read both your deleted threads and I think you are right and they should not be deleted, however as I have said in the past it is Oom Bert’s forum and his decision on what he wishes to do. So I ask you kindly to let this pass as I did with earlier censorship issues.

Hopefully we can get back to the subject matter now…..

Hi Dr Bruce

I've run in to far too many situations where the Indonesian partner (male and female both) have either had a pacar before the marriage to an expat, or obtained one later on in the relationship

I understand what you mean about people cheating after marriage, but this statement from you blew my mind. What is wrong with the young Indonesian partner having a pacar (girlfriend/boyfriend) before the marriage? I can only surmise you mean that the Bule expects the Indonesian to be squeaky clean and a virgin? Please explain as I must be reading this statement incorrectly.

Kind regards

Ni Luh

 

[dandan]

um poochie, i think dr bruce meant two pacars at the same time , one secret pacar and one bule pacar.