Language

[Jimbo]

Looking at some of the replies from another topic yesterday I find that many people in this forum are in a mixed marriage to Indonesians. This brought to mind me and my family sitting around the dinner table talking.

If your families are like mine, a stranger from either of the two cultures would have great difficulty understanding the language we speak. This is because we all speak Bahasa Campur. Conversations get started ( normally in English) and then rapididly deteriorate into this incomprehensible mixture.

What is worst my wife also speaks Bahasa Torajah which some of our first children speak and I do not. Its like the tower of Babel with many cries of "what". They then use this so they can talk about me. In shops it is great because we can discuss all about things with the salesman interfering or trying his sales technique.

Just wondered if the rest of you guys were like that

 

[Roy]

Great topic! Every day I “live” this topic. Understand though, that my experiences are just that…my experiences.

Not to be boring with facts or history, you surely already know that there are some 400 indigenous cultures that make up present day Indonesia. Each of these cultures has their own language, and by some miracle, after Indonesian independence, December 27, 1949, President Soekarno was basically left with this hodgepodge of a country, fractured into some 15,000 islands.

The Malay language had long been used within Indonesia, as it was a useful, and a mostly comprehensible language utilized by traders, be they Dutch, or Asian within Indonesia. It’s understandable that the national language of Indonesia is based on Bahasa Malay.

Reading this quote from you, I almost fell off my chair laughing:

What is worst my wife also speaks Bahasa Torajah which some of our first children speak and I do not. Its like the tower of Babel with many cries of "what". They then use this so they can talk about me.

My kids do the same thing. When it’s time to “talk about dad” it’s always Bahasa Balinese. Even though they know I’m not good at Bahasa Indonesian, they fully understand I am clueless when it comes to Bahasa Bali except for maybe a dozen words.

Yup…I’m definitely “in your boat” on this one. Excellent post Jimbo, and the irony of where it was made from is also humorous….all the way from Kazakhstan! I can only imagine the locals coming in and hearing Bahasa Toraja!

 

[FreoGirl]

Frustrating for me is that I am not picking up Bahasa Indonesian as quickly as I thought I would. After 6 months I can barely have a conversation. Why? Because all those around me in Lombok speak Sasak. My husband speaks English when talking to me, even though I try to get him to speak Indonesian.

An has anyone tried to learn Sasak? REALLY hard language :shock:

One positive?! is that I just have had to give up needing to know what is going on - I have no idea what is happening most of the time because I dont know what everyone is saying :roll:

Karen

 

[Richard Kalibukbuk]

Yes you hit it right on the head freo girl, Indonesian is quite hard to learn not like everyone says that it is easy, precisely because you don't hear it being spoken that much, so you don't get the chance to pick it up automatically.

But don't worry you will probably after a few years be able to understand Sasak although not be able to speak it and you will definitely be able to speak Indo if you put it the hours to study it.

 

[Iris]

About Bahasa Indonesia being difficult to learn probably depends very much on your own mother tongue. For Dutch people itsn't that difficult. More than 40% of the words in B.I. are related to Dutch. My mother is always very keen and whenever we find ourselves in an situation that Bahasa is used, we have to be aware that she very quickly pickes up the topic.

Nowadays I witness that our youngest one (18 months) start to speak two languages. He just picks the words that are most easy pronounced and a lot of words in Bahasa are more easy than in Dutch. The oldest one also for a while spoke more words in Bahasa than in Dutch, although the latter one is now the language she daily speaks.
We also speak a mixture of three languages. For I while I was worried that my kids would see this as the 'normal' language. But I notice that now my oldest is four years old she never uses 'home' language at school or with her Dutch friends.

 

[Cassienne]

Hey
I found Bahasa indonesia extrmely easy to learn, but I think I had a grat advantage to begin with. I speak Maori (the other official language of NZ) and the two languages are surprisingly simelar. I really don't know why there are! (although indonesian is easier.) but structures and vocabularly, manythings are the same. Just some examples:
Fish: Indo - ikan, Maori - ika
Flame: Indo - api, Maori - ahi
Numbers:
Indo - satu dua tiga empat lima enam
Maori -tahu rua toru wha rima ono (and the WHA is the same sound as the emPAT)

I find this fascinating, considering how far apart the two countries are. also, when I was in Flores, one of the languages I heard spoken there was incredibly simelar. I coudln't understand it of course, but they had heaps of the same words and sounds.

 

[FreoGirl]

Yes I agree that the language itself is pretty easy - I find the pronounciation particularly easy as it is so phonetic, even the grammar is not too bad even though I'm a native English speaker - but my problem is that I just don't hear anyone speaking the language, even though I live in Indonesia.
We don't have a TV (my choice) and apart from when I go into the big mall in Mataram, even in the shops and at the market they speak Sasak, not Indonesian.

Luckily I have a couple of good books, and as Richard says if I discipline myself to actually study them, I will eventually pick up the language.

FG

 

[Jimbo]

The Indonesia language is on three levels: Bahasa Pasar or Market language- This is the one most of us learn and is if you like the easy one spoken mainly by less educated people and can be picked up by listening.

The second type is Bahasa Tinggi-the high level language which when spoken correctly extends the easy root words to a stage where it is very difficult. You have learn this level formally including the grammar or you will not understand unless you are spoken down to.

The third is Bahasa Technical which is relatively easy as most of the words are english with a bit of Indonesia added on to the end.

Lastly one of the funny languages in Indonesia is Bahasa Jawa which has a high and low form. The funny bit is that all high born people speak the low form as they have to talk down to lower people and visa a versa with low borns speaking the high language.

 

[Tracey]

Jimbo,
I can speak sedikit Bahasa Indo...
So when in shops or place we will gossip in Indo to the extent hubby knows I know & daughter picks it up super quick whenh in Bali as she plays 24/7 with hubby's younger brothers & sisters & nieces & nephews.... BUt as soon as we are home I lose it again as does she, we speak English at home & a little Indo.
Often if saying something private guests will look at us dumbfounded but both my parents who came to OZ from Holland, my Father was 5 & Mother was 8, don't speak much Dutch at anymore, but will ask when Gede & I are talking outside (they live in a unit behind our house, same block) & don't want anyone to know, but they will pick up a few things we are saying & get the gist of the conversation!

I wish & hope I do learn more & become fluent enough to have full on conversations, problem is my village is in Tuban & so most of the inlaws speak great English & so we speak English in village!
I find it hard to learn to say the words (all the wrong way around & the verb, adjective...hoosh over my head!), but can follow most conversations, by the words used here & there!

 

[mimpimanis]

Well that will explain why, Made & I can have a conversation in Indonesian but if I look at anything written I dont have a clue we are obviously speaking bahasa pasar. But that's okay cause that is what everyone in the village speaks to me. The written Indonesian always seem to have much longer versions of the root words we use. I know maybe I am using the wrong grammer too but I am happy that I can make myself understood, when I need to.

 

[Jean Pascal Comte]

For Dutch people itsn't that difficult. More than 40% of the words in B.I. are related to Dutch.

Iris, I think that you must have press the 0 key by accident : more than 40% of the words in Bahasa Indonesia related to Dutch, my god ! I think that 4% would yet be a high score ! Bahasa Indonesia, as you surely know, come from Malay linguage, and more precisely from Sumatra, and was spoken and already well established as a language before the Dutch came. And Indonesians, Arabs and Chinese had already been using it as a linguae franca for a long time. It is true than the Dutch strongly contribute to its establishment in Indonesia and that the Bahasa used here is quite different to Bahasa Malay because many Dutch, but also Javanese and Sundanese words have been incorporated in it, but 40% of Dutch words is a very extravagant figure, believe me. Just take any kamus and check !
I do not agree either about BI being an easy language. Not only bahasa pasar is not bahasa tinggi, but even bahasa pasar is not that easy. Many tourists and expatriates think they can speak very well because the people in Indonesia are very tolerant and always polite when they see people trying to speak their language. Of course, if you compare with chinese or thai, then BI is easy, but to speak it properly require a lot of work.

 

[Irislahay]

Well, I and Olivier have been in this difficulty.. None of us speak our own language. My english is really not perfect, Olivier too. I didn't understand French before, Olivier can't understand english clearly (still)... One example story that make us laugh out loud 'till now...

I got chickenpox two years ago, so all of the homework was belong to him include cooking...

Olivier: Iris, what do you feel?
Me: I feel hungry
Olivier: :roll:

He left the room... a few hours later he cameback

Olivier: And now what do you feel??
Me: Of course I am still feeling hungry!!
Olivier: What??? But I left you to calm down and you still feel hungry??
Me: You're strange!!

Finally, I understand that he can't make the different between hungry and angry. Now we laughing about that. But two years ago, I was really stuffing and angry in the same time!!!

 

[spitfire]

When I met my wife some 10 years ago she would always argue in Bahasa with her mother. Other than that they had gotten used to speaking dutch amogst each other except when it came to delicate situations. That's why I attended a course of bahasa after work. I never really learned to speak, but I think I have picked up a few hundred words that I know.
Now at least I knew if they were talking about me or what they were quarraling about. That way I was able to stand my own opinion upon facts instead of the dutch recap my wife would give me in the car on the way home..... :roll:

 

[Jean Pascal Comte]

I admit I have been writing my precedent post a bit too fast and that I should have checked my informations first . Iris, I apologize for that And I realize, rereading my post, that it sounded a bit peremptory. I still maintain that "more than 40% words related to Dutch" is a far too high figure, but I have to admit it is also much more than the 4% I was talking about. According to the sources I have been browsing on the web, the number of entries in the Kamus Besar Indonesia is 78 000. Some sources mention the "staggering number" of 10 000 loanwords form Dutch, some other mention 7 000 or "several hundreds" ! I think it all depends if one includes all the western words that came to Indonesian via Dutch or if one only count the "pure" dutch words. It is commonly assumed that the overlap beetween Bahasa Melayu dan Bahasa Indonesia is 80%. Of all these data, I think we could fairly conclude that the percentage of Dutch words in BI must be between 10 and 20%. I must say that I had preconceived ideas on this subject May be somebody else can come with more accurate informations ?

 

[Roy]

Spitfire, welcome to the forum! Be sure to check out the Bali Expat Pictures site...link on upper right of this page...and feel free to add some of your own pictures for our mutual enjoyment.

 

[spitfire]

Thanks for the welcome Roy. I've been reading the forums for more than 2 weeks now before adding my first post. My wife and I have been wanting to go (back) to Asia for many years and it seems we will have a breakthrough even this year to Bali. I have many pictures of many holidays to Asia and at home in Holland ofcourse. Let's see if I will share my personal website or load some up at the picture gallery. For sure I enjoyed what I have seen there so far!

As far as this topic concerns: There are two children at home who will need to do extra home work.....Our daughter has to learn english and I will have to learn to speak BI.....

And with the knowledge of Bahasa I have, I would estimate a 10% or less of words that would be recognized by a Dutch person directly not knowing the language. In reading more than listening.

 

[mimpimanis]

Hi Iris

Made & I had that one often, it became a joke between us.

If he said he was hungry, I would ask him "why are you angry?"

If I said I was angry he would say "have somthing to eat then!"

Your post made me laugh.

 

[Jean Pascal Comte]

I should remember the old french adage : "Always turn your tongue seven times in your mouth before you speak". This first post of mine was written in a hurry (I was late to an appointment) and I realize that not only it sounded peremptory but also a bit rude and arrogant :wink:. So I eat my humble pie and hope Iris will accept my apologies.
Coming back on this subject, I wanted to add that it seems to me that the loanwords and neologisms form Dutch, like the English or Portuguese, generally produce less affixed forms than the words with nousantarian, sanskrit or malaisian roots. To be fair, these affixed forms should be taken into account, because they actually form new words. Anyway, I am not sure these considerations interest many people on the forum ! :roll:
Welcome to you, Spitfire. I hope your family and you will enjoy your trip to Bali. How long since your last trip to Indonesia ?
Iris (Lahay) and Mimpimanis : I have the same kind of stories to tell about my wife and I. This "hungry/angry" quiproquo often occurred during our first years together. Another funny one ? The words "poison" and "poisson" in French. The first one means poison, just like in English, and the latter means "fish". But English speaking persons encounter big difficulties with the word "poisson", they pronounce it just like "poison". And Patsy always had serious problems in the fish shop : "We don't sell poison here, my dear lady".
Iris and Olivier, are you still in the Nord ?

 

[Jean Pascal Comte]

By the way, Iris, we did not get the end ot your story, what we all want to know : did Olivier turn out to be a great cook ?

 

[Irislahay]

Hi Mimpimanis and Jean...

I can't imagine that both of you got that problems also, I thought that we're the only one... The end of our story is, I decide to cook by myself forever :cry: He is a great cooker, last year he cooked for our wedding anniversary in Bali, since 4 o'clock in the afternoon 'till 11 o'clock in the night. And all of the people that we invite, fell slept on the floor :cry: :cry:

Yeah, we're still in the Nord, we'll got some results here and we'll going to Bali at 27 this month... Hope to see ya...