My husband and close balinese friends and family are neither highly educated or worldly, most never finished high school but if you were to ask them about world politics they could clearly and coherently give you and opinion and with a lot of expletives thrown in and none of it would be aimed at the muslims.
Hello everyone!
Regarding my "dark-skinned" comments, as you can see some people believe that the U.S. cares only about the oil and it may be true. I was referring to some U.S. liberals. When Bill Clinton was in office, they were all for going into an illegal war in Bosnia, without U.N. approval. But if it is Rwanda, or Iraq, then maybe these people don't need freedom from the tyrants or massacres in their country. Just a coincidence that they aren't caucasian. If Georgie does it = BAD, If a democrat does it = GOOD. AGAIN, for some lurkers, I think that Bill Clinton and George Bush both have done some good things and some bad things but actually they weren't that much different than each other. So that was the jibe regarding dark skinned people.
Regarding saying what they want me to hear....I agree that they could have been saying it just to please the tourist but as Charlie says ( and I agree) the people I was talking with knew a great deal about what was going on and were happy to give me negative opinions regarding the U.S. also, so I was taking them at face value. But the group I was talking to DID voice an opinion regarding Muslims in regards to Jakarta. It was also at the time of the porno law discussions so emotions were pretty high. They were very vocal about it and expressed support for Bush as an after thought to there concern that the Muslims in Jakarta were going to destroy the Balinese way of life. And it was aimed at Muslims.
I am very careful about talking politics in a foreign country so I am quite sure that many of them didn't even know if I supported Bush. I think I left my "I love George" t-shirt at home .
( NO, I don't really have one)
Perhaps we are all victims of the Pauline Kael syndrome where she couldn't figure out how Richard Nixon was elected since she didn't know ONE person that had voted for him....We stay in our own echo chambers until it is hard to believe anything else.... Who knows...
I hope that explains some of my "reasoning".
I am off on vacation the next couple of days but I will try to get to the computer to see if I have riled any body too much...
Regarding my "dark-skinned" comments, as you can see some people believe that the U.S. cares only about the oil and it may be true. I was referring to some U.S. liberals. When Bill Clinton was in office, they were all for going into an illegal war in Bosnia, without U.N. approval. But if it is Rwanda, or Iraq, then maybe these people don't need freedom from the tyrants or massacres in their country. Just a coincidence that they aren't caucasian. If Georgie does it = BAD, If a democrat does it = GOOD. AGAIN, for some lurkers, I think that Bill Clinton and George Bush both have done some good things and some bad things but actually they weren't that much different than each other. So that was the jibe regarding dark skinned people.
Regarding saying what they want me to hear....I agree that they could have been saying it just to please the tourist but as Charlie says ( and I agree) the people I was talking with knew a great deal about what was going on and were happy to give me negative opinions regarding the U.S. also, so I was taking them at face value. But the group I was talking to DID voice an opinion regarding Muslims in regards to Jakarta. It was also at the time of the porno law discussions so emotions were pretty high. They were very vocal about it and expressed support for Bush as an after thought to there concern that the Muslims in Jakarta were going to destroy the Balinese way of life. And it was aimed at Muslims.
I am very careful about talking politics in a foreign country so I am quite sure that many of them didn't even know if I supported Bush. I think I left my "I love George" t-shirt at home .
( NO, I don't really have one)Perhaps we are all victims of the Pauline Kael syndrome where she couldn't figure out how Richard Nixon was elected since she didn't know ONE person that had voted for him....We stay in our own echo chambers until it is hard to believe anything else.... Who knows...
I hope that explains some of my "reasoning".
I am off on vacation the next couple of days but I will try to get to the computer to see if I have riled any body too much...
Jim, first order of business, have a great vacation! Watching all the floods in the Northeast is disconcerting, to say the least. In the midwest, I hope you are being spared of all that. I guess when Iowa floods, you may finally capitulate that GW igonored, during his entire term of office, the global warming warnings.
As for home, or my home anyway, you write:
Seriously Jim, no Balinese are concerned that Mulsims are going to destroy the Balinese way of life. With all due respect, I think you misunderstood what you heard here on your last visit.
The Balinese provincial heads, as well as all the regency DPRs, have made it very clear that the proposed anti-pornograhy law, as being discussed and in its current draft, in the MPR, in Jakarta, will be rejected, and not in anyway be enforced if it were ever to become law. Moreover, it has been made clear that Bali will not accept any form of Sharia based laws...period!
One of the common aspects I love the most about most all Balinese is their constraint. They do not impose on others their religious or cultural views.
The Balinese have no interest in forcing their way of life, or their ideaologies upon any people anywhere in the world.
That is in stark contrast to the US, as being led by the current administation, and you can't convince me one bit that in past administrations, the idea of forcing democracy, however you define democracy, was the "manifest destiny" of the United States.
I love America and what it was founded to stand for. BUT, in all seriousness, I no longer recognize the country as it once was because like it or not, the US is always, and has always been, defined by its leadership, which currently is Captain Ahab.
I doubt the great men who signed the three great documents of US democracy would recognize it today either. To emphasise my doubt, read the writings of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin.
Jim, I’m sorry to so vehemently disagree with you, but today’s USA is not the USA you or I grew up in. Back then, in the 50’s and 60’s we were a nation pretty ignorant about the rest of the world, but perhaps with an excuse....the Soviet Union. Sadly, we still are very ignorant, and there is no longer, an excuse.
If there was ever a time for the United States to shed the light of its accumulated wisdom, by EXAMPLE, and not force, it was during the last ten years, and now, I pray, into the future.
As for home, or my home anyway, you write:
Seriously Jim, no Balinese are concerned that Mulsims are going to destroy the Balinese way of life. With all due respect, I think you misunderstood what you heard here on your last visit.
The Balinese provincial heads, as well as all the regency DPRs, have made it very clear that the proposed anti-pornograhy law, as being discussed and in its current draft, in the MPR, in Jakarta, will be rejected, and not in anyway be enforced if it were ever to become law. Moreover, it has been made clear that Bali will not accept any form of Sharia based laws...period!
One of the common aspects I love the most about most all Balinese is their constraint. They do not impose on others their religious or cultural views.
The Balinese have no interest in forcing their way of life, or their ideaologies upon any people anywhere in the world.
That is in stark contrast to the US, as being led by the current administation, and you can't convince me one bit that in past administrations, the idea of forcing democracy, however you define democracy, was the "manifest destiny" of the United States.
I love America and what it was founded to stand for. BUT, in all seriousness, I no longer recognize the country as it once was because like it or not, the US is always, and has always been, defined by its leadership, which currently is Captain Ahab.
I doubt the great men who signed the three great documents of US democracy would recognize it today either. To emphasise my doubt, read the writings of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin.
Jim, I’m sorry to so vehemently disagree with you, but today’s USA is not the USA you or I grew up in. Back then, in the 50’s and 60’s we were a nation pretty ignorant about the rest of the world, but perhaps with an excuse....the Soviet Union. Sadly, we still are very ignorant, and there is no longer, an excuse.
If there was ever a time for the United States to shed the light of its accumulated wisdom, by EXAMPLE, and not force, it was during the last ten years, and now, I pray, into the future.
Hi Roy
Brilliant post.
You know I love America too.
I still get a massive buzz arriving at JFK even after dozens of visits there.
I find it difficult to sleep in New York because I just KNOW I’m missing something. I used to drag my wife out of bed at 3am and we would go to bars, jazz clubs and all night diners and meet the most wonderful friendly and generous people.
I first went to NYC in 1976 .. and man was it dodgy as we say in London!
I once got mugged 3 times in one day! The third time I told the guy the last two muggings had cleared me out and he laughed so much I started laughing too!
I told the Irish doorman at the hotel about the serial muggings and he took me for dinner at his family’s apartment in queens. Drinking Irish whiskey ‘till the early hours.
I worked in Alabama for a while and was overwhelmed by the generosity and hospitality of the people I was working with and complete strangers. No one really talked of politics or foreign policy, I used to tease a waitress at the Waffle House that she didn’t know where England was.. She really didn’t!
I used to love sitting at the counter watching the short order cooks do their thing, back chatting to the customers, frying eggs and hash browns.
The enormous black woman who was the manager used to shout at me “speak English goddamit” every time I made an order. The locals used to say things like “ hey, say banana “ and I would put on my very best phoney posh accent and perform. They made me feel like I had lived there all my life.
You knew that these peoples’ knowledge of the rest of the world was sketchy at best. They were totally insulated and didn’t see anything strange about that.
Three years ago I was working in Kansas with regular trips to Fort Worth and Dallas. This was post 9/11 and the atmosphere was totally different.
People were truly scared and when you watched the news you could see why.
A daily barrage of alerts, security threats and that inane colour coding of the Homeland Security Advisory System that serves no purpose whatsoever other than scaring people shitless.
And everyone had a view on foreign policy… with a few exceptions it was bomb them .. nuke them .. do whatever it takes to get these people back in line.
I went to a restaurant in Kansas and a guy at the next table heard that I was English.. he came over and thanked me.. thanked me for being English and helping the US on the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.. (I wont repeat what he said about the French! ) Everyone in the restaurant started clapping and cheering.. Jesus! I just kinda said Ohh you’re welcome and sat down again!
Yes the US has changed; it seems to have lost its core spirit, its pure idealism.
I blame Captain Ahab too of course but the media has a lot to answer for as well, especially that bastard Murdock and Fox News.
Benjamin Franklin said “Educate your children to self-control, to the habit of holding passion and prejudice and evil tendencies subject to an upright and reasoning will, and you have done much to abolish misery from their future and crimes from society.“
That’s pretty much what I feel about America right now.
It’s like a talented but wayward child who needs to be got back on track with a bit of tough love. Subject it to an upright and reasoning will.
Hopefully then it will grow up to be an adult that you can be proud of.
God Bless America
Brilliant post.
You know I love America too.
I still get a massive buzz arriving at JFK even after dozens of visits there.
I find it difficult to sleep in New York because I just KNOW I’m missing something. I used to drag my wife out of bed at 3am and we would go to bars, jazz clubs and all night diners and meet the most wonderful friendly and generous people.
I first went to NYC in 1976 .. and man was it dodgy as we say in London!
I once got mugged 3 times in one day! The third time I told the guy the last two muggings had cleared me out and he laughed so much I started laughing too!
I told the Irish doorman at the hotel about the serial muggings and he took me for dinner at his family’s apartment in queens. Drinking Irish whiskey ‘till the early hours.
I worked in Alabama for a while and was overwhelmed by the generosity and hospitality of the people I was working with and complete strangers. No one really talked of politics or foreign policy, I used to tease a waitress at the Waffle House that she didn’t know where England was.. She really didn’t!
I used to love sitting at the counter watching the short order cooks do their thing, back chatting to the customers, frying eggs and hash browns.
The enormous black woman who was the manager used to shout at me “speak English goddamit” every time I made an order. The locals used to say things like “ hey, say banana “ and I would put on my very best phoney posh accent and perform. They made me feel like I had lived there all my life.
You knew that these peoples’ knowledge of the rest of the world was sketchy at best. They were totally insulated and didn’t see anything strange about that.
Three years ago I was working in Kansas with regular trips to Fort Worth and Dallas. This was post 9/11 and the atmosphere was totally different.
People were truly scared and when you watched the news you could see why.
A daily barrage of alerts, security threats and that inane colour coding of the Homeland Security Advisory System that serves no purpose whatsoever other than scaring people shitless.
And everyone had a view on foreign policy… with a few exceptions it was bomb them .. nuke them .. do whatever it takes to get these people back in line.
I went to a restaurant in Kansas and a guy at the next table heard that I was English.. he came over and thanked me.. thanked me for being English and helping the US on the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.. (I wont repeat what he said about the French! ) Everyone in the restaurant started clapping and cheering.. Jesus! I just kinda said Ohh you’re welcome and sat down again!
Yes the US has changed; it seems to have lost its core spirit, its pure idealism.
I blame Captain Ahab too of course but the media has a lot to answer for as well, especially that bastard Murdock and Fox News.
Benjamin Franklin said “Educate your children to self-control, to the habit of holding passion and prejudice and evil tendencies subject to an upright and reasoning will, and you have done much to abolish misery from their future and crimes from society.“
That’s pretty much what I feel about America right now.
It’s like a talented but wayward child who needs to be got back on track with a bit of tough love. Subject it to an upright and reasoning will.
Hopefully then it will grow up to be an adult that you can be proud of.
God Bless America
"leap" thanks for the reminder of what its like to live in the NYC area , you've made me feel warm all over. (and that Roy hasnt had a bacon and on a roll in a decade ) I sat and though bout what you said , yes things have changed since 911 , yes we've become alittle less helpfull to strangers , and its sad ...I wounder if its the same else where , your county has gone threw alot since 911 and Im sure London is a bit chilly too ? btw...your posts read great , look foward to the future ...jamie
The original question was about is it safe in Bali? I had another thought today and came to the conclusion that this question is unanswerable unless you are a member of of all the terrorist groups who have an axe to grind in Bali.
How does anyone know in todays world if anywhere is safe. Just think if I rang a collegue in the world trade center on 9/11 and said is it safe to come over today or in the Balinese night club. What would they have answered?
You have not to live in fear but apply common sense where you can and just live life.
How does anyone know in todays world if anywhere is safe. Just think if I rang a collegue in the world trade center on 9/11 and said is it safe to come over today or in the Balinese night club. What would they have answered?
You have not to live in fear but apply common sense where you can and just live life.
And what annoys me even more is when i recently went home i actually got told not to go coz it wasn't safe :shock: !!!! Bloody idiots - the people who said it don't realise that they're just as unsafe living in Sydney - in my opinion more :evil: !!! or any other place on earth in todays reality :roll: !!!
Charlie, these are my thoughts EXACTLY. This is why I'm not afraid to go to Bali. I think it's far more dangerous to go to the MLC Centre (for example), because the American Embassy is there. And I did have 2nd thoughts at the Opera House recently.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: RE: Is it safe?
- Some of them have a clue about US foreign policy.
- Some of them like Bush.
That is, some of them like Bush, and thus have no clue about foreign policy, and some of them have a clue about US foreign policy, and thus don't like Bush. For most, a bush is just a bush.
Anyway, I find that Americans are popular travellers most places in the world, and in Indonesia too. Of course the rest of the world knows something the Americans don't:
The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
Often go awry,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain
For promis'd joy.
Jim Thorpe said:
- Some of them have a clue about US foreign policy.
- Some of them like Bush.
That is, some of them like Bush, and thus have no clue about foreign policy, and some of them have a clue about US foreign policy, and thus don't like Bush. For most, a bush is just a bush.
Anyway, I find that Americans are popular travellers most places in the world, and in Indonesia too. Of course the rest of the world knows something the Americans don't:
The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
Often go awry,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain
For promis'd joy.
As an American who has visited Bali several times, I'm often asked that by friends here -- "Bali... oh yes, I remember hearing about a bombing there. Aren't you afraid? Isn't it dangerous there?" Most people in the western world have at least HEARD of Bali; that's one big reason it was chosen as a target. Bombing a small village somewhere in North Sulawesi just wouldn't have been as dramatic. But my answer is always the same... I ask them if they'd think twice about visiting New York City, or London, and of course, they say, "Why, no..." Well, NYC has been the target of two fully realized terrorist plots (both on the World Trade Center) and a number of foiled plots as well. London had a major attack last year, and of course was the scene of innumerable terrorist attacks during the IRA campaigns. I think people just fear the unknown, even when it utterly flies in the face of logic. I've never felt unsafe in any of my trips to Bali.
Hello all,
Back from a wonderful vacation and see that no one got too riled up about my posting!
Roy, weather here is GREAT! The Northeast did get hammered and my flights thru Newark were delayed...and delayed...and delayed...You know that story. Thanks for the inquiry. Regarding your post, I will refer back to what I was saying about Pauline Kael. Perhaps the people that spoke to me were more open to americans and so spoke to me about their feelings. Others that don't like americans perhaps avoided me so I wasn't able to have similar conversations.
A Leap of Faiths post is a great example. The talked to him and liked him because he was British but would they have talked to him if he was French? Maybe not.... But in the end I did have Balinese talk about the future of Bali and discuss what they thought would be a clash with Muslims. Not Jakarta but Muslims. Why they mentioned it to me I don't know. I certainly don't go to foreign countries and discuss politics with people that all carry very sharp knives!
Leap of Faith - glad you like the U.S. but I don't think that Fox news is THAT bad. It has it's biases, just like CNN, but you have to sift thru it as you would any media. I have to agee that we have lost some of our idealism. As a libertarian, I am vexed that many of our liberal leaders have abandoned their principles while chasing votes and our conservative leaders have sold out their ideas for money....But I say to you, as the people in the restaurant...God Bless the U.K.
Guest- I politely disagree with your sentiments.
Overall though, I find it funny that many posters look at the U.S. as immature, from LOF's view that we are like a child to Guest's view that we don't understand the simplest of Robert Burn's admonitions but everyone else other than an american does. While I KNOW that I don't have the grasp of the culture of Indonesia, or the U.K. , nor even parts of the large U.S. culture( New York, New Orleans, raves, San Fransisco, etc. which have sub-cultures all of their own) Many people feel that they KNOW the U.S. because of a 2 week trip or by watching Seinfeld or even worse, CNN or FOX.
Otherwise to get this discussion back on track, Bali is a safe enought that I took my wife and children there just a few months ago. I even took the risk of bringing friends and their families. I was so crazy one night, I even took my 14 year old daughter to Naughty Nuri's to meet some wild-eyed expatriate and his wife and drink a bottle of Jack Daniels and eat some of the best ribs ever.
Peace,
Back from a wonderful vacation and see that no one got too riled up about my posting!
Roy, weather here is GREAT! The Northeast did get hammered and my flights thru Newark were delayed...and delayed...and delayed...You know that story. Thanks for the inquiry. Regarding your post, I will refer back to what I was saying about Pauline Kael. Perhaps the people that spoke to me were more open to americans and so spoke to me about their feelings. Others that don't like americans perhaps avoided me so I wasn't able to have similar conversations.
A Leap of Faiths post is a great example. The talked to him and liked him because he was British but would they have talked to him if he was French? Maybe not.... But in the end I did have Balinese talk about the future of Bali and discuss what they thought would be a clash with Muslims. Not Jakarta but Muslims. Why they mentioned it to me I don't know. I certainly don't go to foreign countries and discuss politics with people that all carry very sharp knives!
Leap of Faith - glad you like the U.S. but I don't think that Fox news is THAT bad. It has it's biases, just like CNN, but you have to sift thru it as you would any media. I have to agee that we have lost some of our idealism. As a libertarian, I am vexed that many of our liberal leaders have abandoned their principles while chasing votes and our conservative leaders have sold out their ideas for money....But I say to you, as the people in the restaurant...God Bless the U.K.
Guest- I politely disagree with your sentiments.
Overall though, I find it funny that many posters look at the U.S. as immature, from LOF's view that we are like a child to Guest's view that we don't understand the simplest of Robert Burn's admonitions but everyone else other than an american does. While I KNOW that I don't have the grasp of the culture of Indonesia, or the U.K. , nor even parts of the large U.S. culture( New York, New Orleans, raves, San Fransisco, etc. which have sub-cultures all of their own) Many people feel that they KNOW the U.S. because of a 2 week trip or by watching Seinfeld or even worse, CNN or FOX.
Otherwise to get this discussion back on track, Bali is a safe enought that I took my wife and children there just a few months ago. I even took the risk of bringing friends and their families. I was so crazy one night, I even took my 14 year old daughter to Naughty Nuri's to meet some wild-eyed expatriate and his wife and drink a bottle of Jack Daniels and eat some of the best ribs ever.
Peace,
And my daughter still says that was her best memory of Bali!!!!
Best to your family! Hope to bring mine back soon....
Daniel, "Jim" lives in the "bible belt"....Iowa to be specific. I love this guy, specifics not to be mentioned, and he is a super dad.
While I can "drive him nuts" he can do the same to me.
In all seriousness, Jim is, and I hate to say this, even though it is so true, "salt of the earth."
For me he represents the core of American life and thinking. In many respects, he is a modern day Ben Franklin. Personally, I resond to those roots that made America what it once was. Those roots were both noble and deep.
In my mind, I can envision a Thursday night at Nuri's Warung where the three of us engage in wonderous and delightful conversation. If pressed, we could likely come up with a solution for peace in the Middle East.
If really pressed, we might even find a nice retirement home for Bush Junior!
While I can "drive him nuts" he can do the same to me.
In all seriousness, Jim is, and I hate to say this, even though it is so true, "salt of the earth."
For me he represents the core of American life and thinking. In many respects, he is a modern day Ben Franklin. Personally, I resond to those roots that made America what it once was. Those roots were both noble and deep.
In my mind, I can envision a Thursday night at Nuri's Warung where the three of us engage in wonderous and delightful conversation. If pressed, we could likely come up with a solution for peace in the Middle East.
If really pressed, we might even find a nice retirement home for Bush Junior!
Tintin,
Roy has spilled the beans! I live in Iowa, USA. I have lived in other places but this is where I have been for the last 5 years.
Roy, please stop it.... You are making me blush
I think we could come up with some very interesting solutions to the problems facing the world but alas, we are not the kings of the world so we will have to just keep those solutions secret in a bottle of booze.
Roy has spilled the beans! I live in Iowa, USA. I have lived in other places but this is where I have been for the last 5 years.
Roy, please stop it....
You are making me blush I think we could come up with some very interesting solutions to the problems facing the world but alas, we are not the kings of the world so we will have to just keep those solutions secret in a bottle of booze.