Hi young Jedi knight ;-)
Call me arrogant or whatever you like, I don’t care!
I have comprehension for your point of view, considering your age and also considering the attacks in New York (and nothing can deliver any kind of excuse for this), but never less your position is wrong.
Gulf war I (dessert storm) was carried by an UN decision, I supported this and the media report at this time was indeed something new and also impressing, later I found out the truth and it was depressing, but I still think it was right to do this.
Jedi, I could spend my live to prove you where and how these so-called “American interests”, this policy was responsible directly or in-directly for the death of millions of people around the world after WW II, but I want to suggest you sit down on your butt and do your homework.
Your comments due US aid for the entire world are not worth a response.
Back to the Iraq war, your Government has started this war against every advice, it’s not a question to win or lose this war (USA won the war, but what’s now?), mission accomplished?
The show on the aircraft carrier was the summit of arrogance !
It’s not the question to drag your troops out there, now you are caught in this and there is no way to retire, now you have a responsibility for the chaos you have caused in the Iraq!
Faked evidences, personal revenge, the illusion to install democracy there – this all doesn’t matter anymore, now the question is simply how to minimize the damage.
Jim,
I was teasing you since I know and appreciate your humour (had really to laugh about the “German socialist” thingy), well we will hardly find an agreement on political issues, but since I’m probably still an optimist, I will waste some more time to debate with you on political things.
The last and only good invention of US foreign (military) policy was to invade Germany!
That was a great job, well planned, with a real concept and also unquestionable in morality, the handling of this after German capitulation was a milestone for the policy of the 20th century and I still regret that George C. Marshall never became US president!
This man had a vision, he was able to look into the future and the concept for US policy in Europe was brilliant!
The Iraq war is a disaster in all points, the military planning was shit, no concept at all for the aftermath of this war, absolutely no knowledge at all how to install or preserve any kind of administration, the “democratic” elections were a joke – now there is no accepted Government, no existing judicial system, no working police, no administration, in fact there is simply anarchy!
What might have thought this embarrassing US government – they are marching into Iraq as a liberation army, the people will stand on the street waving American flags and a democracy will be installed – just like Germany after WW II?
That’s the American dilemma over decades, they simply act without considering the consequences – democracy in the Iraq will never work, no chance for this, it would simply mean another Iran.
What could be a solution – the separation of Iraq in three parts?
You mentioned the Kurds – hey they have oil there in the North and at the day, American troops will leave the Iraq they will declare an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will never accept this and I would bet my ass, they will invade the North of Iraq – can you imagine the consequences?
For a nation, build up as a conglomerate of so many different cultures, this lethargy toward US foreign policy is amazing, they simply don’t care, the concern is for the cadaver bags, for the coffins of US soldiers dying for nothing abroad, but certainly not for the destiny of the population where these wars are carried out.
Many Americans seem to have the understanding, that war is just another political instrument, easy to support a war so far away from the own door –yes?
Daniel
First of all, I’m glad that you decided not to participate in the Algerian war neither that you helped to develop nuclear weapons – and yes, you should be proud of this!
I’m grateful that you picked up my mentioning of the US support for Ho Chi Minh!
I don’t have any doubts that you will know the facts and I also don’t have any doubt that you understood the political processes, which lead to the Vietnam war – the American trauma.
Vietnam is the best example IMO, how a completely wrong estimation of political reality, totally lack of diplomatic perspicacity (and I don’t blame only the USA for this), criminal activities of intelligence services, stubbornness and fear can cause a disaster with millions and millions of victims.
I don’t want to illuminate the Vietnam war, the fact shield of this war is well known, but the political and military development which lead into this war is probably not known by everybody, this could be a good tutorial about the consequences of a completely failed foreign policy by several involved states and I see a lot of parallels with the current situation in the Iraq,
Indochina (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia) were French colonies, the request of Ho Chi Minh to attend the Treaty of Versailles after WWI to work out a plan for the possibility to obtain independence from France for these colonies was simply rejected.
During WWII, the collaborating French Vichy regime was in fact under control of Hitler’s allied Japan , so Indochina was de facto under Japanese occupation, Ho formed a resistance group and fought the Japanese in the North, the Viet Minh, they were assisted by the US American “Office of Strategic Services” (later the CIA).
Teddy Roosevelt opposed European colonialism, his position was independence and liberty for all colonies.
1944 the Japanese changed their policy due the ongoing retreat of German army, now French officials were humiliated in front of the Vietnamese population, the Japanese encouraged the nationalists to gain independence from France and even granted this!
The declaration of independence on 2nd Sep 1945 was the result of the Japanese surrender, but in the meantime the victors of WWII were negotiating about the rest of the world at the Potsdam Conference.
France and Great Britain did not want to give up their colonies, the hardest counterpart on the conference was Josef Stalin. USA had some different visions about a new Europe, so Indochina was not a significant point of the negotiations, they made a deal for the benefit of France and the British and as a little bonus toward the Soviet Union they even involved China now!
By ignoring all existing political facts, Vietnam was set under control of China and the British, the separation between 16th parallel.
During this time, it was already obvious that a renew of the Chinese civil war will happen, Mao Zedong was supported by Stalin and there was no need for a crystal bowl to predict the result of this movement in China.
The British occupation had not much interest in South Vietnam, so the French prevailed upon the British to turn control of the region back over to them.
The French started negotiations with China now, they made the deal to give back the Shanghai concession (there was almost no chance to hold it anymore) to get back into the North of Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh allowed French forces to land outside Hanoi for the expectance of an independent Vietnam within the French Union.
In December 1946 the negotiations with Ho collapsed, the French bombarded Haiphong and entered Hanoi.
The next three years the Viet Minh led guerrilla strokes against the French, Ho Chi Minh was betrayed by Truman, de Gaulle and Churchill, but the situation changed with Mao Zedong’s victory in the Chinese civil war!
Since 1949 Ho received massive support of weapons from China and also from the Soviet Union now, the Viet Minh were converted into a regular army.
Ho was a communist at a time were this was not a crime yet, what can anybody expect, which options he would choose due his fight for independence?
Not that the USA had given a shit on Vietnam, but 1950 changed everything, the cold war and the paranoia due the threat of communism has already started, Stalin was killing millions at home, Mao was killing millions at home and then Chinese forces went into Korea!
Instead of accepting the independence of Vietnam and to provide a partnership, the now (after the contact of Potsdam) illegal occupation of Vietnam by the French was supported from the USA.
Despite of massive US supplies, the French were defeated and retired from Indochina, on the conference in Geneva 1954, France gave his former colonies independence, but under the influence of he USA, a temporally separation of Vietnam at the 17th parallel was conducted, nationwide elections should be held in July 1956.
1955 the French left Indochina and the USA installed the Ngo Dinh Diem regime in the South, who started immediately the hunt on communists (later he was killed with American participation), Eisenhower had no interests at all in nationwide elections since everybody was aware who would have won this!
The rest is history, lot’s of the lies due this stupid war have been exposed later by the Washington Post known as the Pentagon papers.
Despite of the sick ideas of this gangster Dick Nixon and his intention to throw nuclear bombs on Hanoi, something is almost forgotten, America’s role in Cambodia and in the consequence the Red Khmer regime, the Armageddon of South East Asia.
My God, this was really a long one, maybe Bert should limit postings? :roll:
best regards
Thorsten :wink:
