Iraq, the French and the Germans and the Russians too

[swisshawaiian]

Roy wrote:

What is obvious is that the threat of terrorism grows as American aggression grows. They go hand in hand. I have no doubts that the threat of terrorism is growing, and I also have no doubts as to why that is so true.

Once again, Roy hits the nail on the head. I lived in the States from 1990-2005 (HI,CA,FL,MI,MS). Thanks to the Republican's scare tactics the majority of Americans doesn't seem to understand the consequences of this war and re-elected this SOB as president. The whole world was in disbelief. Just recently I read in the news that Bush made a statement that he's sure that eventually the US will win the war in Iraq. How can you win this war? How can he make such a statement after all that has happened?

 

[Roy]

You are absolutely right. The war in Iraq is not a winnable war no matter how many young men and women are sent there to try to make it so for Bush.

Two, five, ten more years there aren’t going to make a difference, and it’s time for Americans to understand this.

As a lame duck President, and he is surely lame, Bush, in his final two years of the Presidency should honor that office by not letting this quagmire be handed over to our next President. He should read Jack Kennedy’s Profiles in Courage, and find a little for himself...enough to admit his mistake, and save the lives of another thousand or more young Americans.

This will not happen, and it won’t happen because our current President is not a man of honor. This man is not fit to hold the highest office of the land. One can even wonder if he is fit to hold the office of librarian in some obscure Texas town.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Sorry, but I don’t need to read articles to know what is so obvious. What is obvious is that the threat of terrorism grows as American aggression grows. They go hand in hand. I have no doubts that the threat of terrorism is growing, and I also have no doubts as to why that is so true.

This is where we disagree. Did Theo Van Gogh die because of Bush? Did Salman Rushdie have a fatwa put on his head because of american aggression? The Danish cartoon controversy? I see this as a war for basic western ideas; freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom for women, gay rights and a host of other things. For the past twenty years there has been a group of people that have said they will fight these ideas. These are the true fascists. And for the past twenty years and more they have been spreading. The true imperialists? Look at how many countries in the past thirty years have gone to Islamic leadership. Take a look at Africa let alone what is now happening in southern Thailand.
It is my belief that this aggression and attack on every basic western belief that you and I hold dear should be challenged. When I considered myself a liberal we stood up against fascism that came from truly bad countries: South Africa, China and other similar countries. Now my psuedo liberal buddies support Castro.

Your knowledge of history should also remind you what happened when the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam. Millions slaughtered in the aftermath. The same will happen if we pull out of Iraq. We will have proven to Islamic militants that the western world is the paper tiger they said we were. The people in Iraq that believed in the U.S. will have been betrayed. Just as the Hmong were. Just as the Kurds were after 1991 and the Southern Iraqis. I know you don't suggest that we abandon these people because they are not americans.

Just today in Southern Thailand another 4 people, including children, were killed by Islamic militants. As it creeps closer to you and the island I hope you will recognize that those people aren't doing it because of Bush nor Israel nor any other excuse other than they are killers that desire power over you.

Remember, my friend, remember what you probably learned a long time ago: "If you falter in the time of trouble, your strength is small.
Rescue those who are being led away to death! Indeed, hold back those who are staggering to the slaughter!"
That is one of the reasons I think this war was justified and why we need to figure a way to finish the job.

I thank you for any offerings as they will be accepted in the grace that they are given.

 

[Alexandre]

Steve Howards, 54, and his wife were walking their son
to piano practice in Beaver Creek, Colo., and were surprised to see
Vice President Dick Cheney on the street chatting with citizens. "Many
of us fantasize what would we do if we had the opportunity to really
tell Mr. Bush or Mr. Cheney how we feel," Howards said, so as he passed
by he told Cheney, "I think your policies in Iraq are reprehensible."
After dropping off his son, a Secret Service agent approached Howards
and asked, "Did you assault the vice president?" Howards said no, and
made it clear he didn't even attempt to touch Cheney. "If this had
happened, I would think if they were doing their job, I would have been
face-down in the concrete five or 10 minutes earlier," he said later.
Still, he was handcuffed and jailed, with the Secret Service demanding
he be charged with harassment. The Eagle County District Attorney
dropped the charge. Howards has filed a lawsuit in federal court
accusing Secret Service agent Virgil D. Reichle Jr. with civil rights
violations. (Rocky Mountain News) ...Dick Cheney's America: where
exercising one's rights has become an act of courage.

God does not bless America :!:

 

[Roy]

Jim, with all due respect and admiration for you personally, your views, as often are expressed here, reflect the twisted “reality” that is force fed on the American people by its government.

Your last post could quite literally be the flag of American Islamaphobia. I’m sorry to say, but that is as twisted, distorted and sick as are the terrorist acts carried out by such a tiny minority of Islamic fanatics. So, when I speak of what should be expected from America, I’m screaming that religious tolerance is an essential aspect of our Constitution as penned by our forefathers.

I highly doubt that where you live in Iowa there is a mosque nearby. I also have no doubts what would happen if one was proposed to be built.

Islamaphobia is a sick, pervasive, and very damaging addition to current American culture. It is based on fear, but more to the point, it is based on utter and complete ignorance.

The United States has to come to recognize that it is only just another member of the world community. I guess, in very real terms, that means that farmers in Iowa have to learn to look beyond their fields to see the greater world that grows ever closer to them.

Most Americans have a great deal to learn. Personally, I would like to see these lessons learned before it is too late. Any attempts to try to shield America from its responsibility to be a good citizen in the world community, is greatly detrimental to the citizens of this great country.

The classic “Wizard Of Oz” comes to my mind, as it so clear to me that what is currently driving America is nothing more than a farce hiding behind a curtain.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Roy,
Perhaps you are right and I have overestimated the threat of Islamic terrorism. But perhaps you are wrong too. But let me address something first.

I am unpleasantly surprised that you would fall into stereotyping Iowa and then make an incredible assumption of the bigotry in Iowa. While I am not a native Iowan, Iowans have continued to look past it's borders. I drive by "America's Mother Mosque" a couple of times a month in Cedar Rapids.
Here is an interesting site regarding the oldest mosque in america,in fact in the western hemisphere... in Iowa.

http://www.crmosque.com/history_of_islam_in_iowa.htm

So I do take some offense regarding your statement about what would happen if a mosque was started here. Nothing but good things have happened in the 72 years that there has been a mosque in Iowa. There is a thriving Muslim community in Iowa as represented by this web site:
http://www.iowamuslims.org/

Iowa, as well as many parts of the midwest, have welcomed the religious, many outcasts from the eastern United States as demonstrated by the Amish, Mennonite, Quaker, Muslim, Hindu communities and even wiccan congregations that are active in Iowa. We have entire cities and universities based on, and ran by, the the philosophies of of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his theories of the Transcendental Meditation and Vedic beliefs. Here is the website for this city and it's 8,000 residents and students, yes, in the heart of Iowa farmlands. I have visited this beautiful city often and it is where I usually buy my incense. If anyone ever comes out to Iowa, we can visit it together. I will be certain to show you nephew when he comes out...

http://maharishivediccity.net/index.html

As I respect you and your thoughts, I think I have demonstrated that Iowa perhaps isn't the reliously intolerant place that you suggest.

Looking past the borders of Iowa has been the goal of Iowan Nobel peace prize winner Norman Borlaug, who spent a life time developing superior plants and started the "green revolution" around the world. He started the World Food Prize, here in Des Moines, honoring people and scientists that impact feeding the world.
Here is their website:
http://www.worldfoodprize.org/

Please google this great man and see the impact on literally billions of people because of this Iowan farmboy. Iowa continues to be the global leader in figuring out ways to feed the world and we are very proud of this fact.


Now to the charge of Islamophobia. :?
Phobia is an irrational fear of something.

So, is my concern irrational?

What I suggest is that perhaps this isn't a result of my governments force feeding me views. Many of these views have come from the Muslims themselves.

A Free Egyptian poll of egyptians, a few weeks after 9/11 showed:
- 91% said they supported and rejoiced the attacks of 9/11.
- 89% said America deserved to be attacked because it is an infidel country that supports the Jews.
- 83% said 9/11 inspired so much zeal in them that they themselves were willing to volunteer as suicide bombers to carry out attacks against targets in America or Israel.
- 94% said that 9/11 attackers died as shaheed ( martyrs.)
- 87% said that 9/11 marked the beginning of the end for America.
- 88% said that they supported more attacks on America.

The twin tower bombings, London tube bombings, Madrid bombings, India bombings, Beslan, Bali bombings, Somalia, the genocide in Sudan are just the big noticeable things in recent years. In the first 5 days of this month, 8 people in Thailand have been murdered by Islamic extremists. Did you know that thousands demonstrated in Turkey this past week, concerned with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism?
So is this an irrational fear? I don't think so and I think the facts support me.
Is my fear driven by my government?

A recent Pew research poll showed that it isn't just america who is concerned about Islamic extremism. Please take a look at it since it has many interesting questions and graphs:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=254

Actually, citizens in Germany, Great Britain, France, Russia and even Pakistan are more worried about rising Muslim extremism than americans. The country with the lowest concern? Indonesia. So I am politely suggesting, and these polls seem to support, that it may be you who are on the far edge of this bell curve and that this concern for Islamic extremism is more than just an american phenomenon.

Accepting that these polls are accurate, do you agree that this COULD be the case?

If not, did the other countries spread american propaganda? What could be the reason for the rise in concern for Muslim extemism even in countries that don't support the U.S. policies.

 

[Alexandre]

Roy, wonderfully put. I shall buy you drinks next time I'm in Ubud.

 

[rien.gluvers]

Re: RE: Iraq, the French and the Germans and the Russians to

Actually, citizens in Germany, Great Britain, France, Russia and even Pakistan are more worried about rising Muslim extremism than americans. The country with the lowest concern? Indonesia. So I am politely suggesting, and these polls seem to support, that it may be you who are on the far edge of this bell curve and that this concern for Islamic extremism is more than just an american phenomenon.

Dear Jim,

Maybe I have missed something, but what had Saddam Hussein to do with muslim extremists? Under his reign muslim-extremism was not possible in his country. Women didn't need to wear headscarfs, alcoholic beverages could be bought, etc. So where's the improvement?

 

[Jim Thorpe]

You are right that he allowed some freedoms, but you are not under the impression that Saddam had no connection to terrorism, are you? He certainly allowed terrorists to use Iraq and he did give $25,000 to every Palestinian suicide bomber's family, which many consider terrorists.

Here are some websites and articles that I just got by googling.


http://regimeofterror.com/

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 4eyieu.asp

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... p?ID=23264

For the majority of the country, life is an improvement, just ask the kurds. Unfortunately, Baghdad is worse than ever.

I supported the war because Saddam had obligations under the ceasefire agreement in 1991. He did not abide by those ceasefire agreements. We can keep going over, and over the reasons for the war, which we have for 4 years.
Obviously, the war has changed from just fighting Saddam. It has turned into a magnet for every jihadi in the middle east and they have turned this into a referendum on the ability of the west to fight Islamic terror. So the reasons for continued fighting for this war have changed since the beginnings and we cannot let these extremists win this battle. Do you see my reasoning on this? Perhaps I haven't explained myself well enough.

 

[tintin]

Jimmy,

In my first post on this particular string (Nov 4, 2006 @ 1:02 a.m.), I was writing,

…the illegal invasion of Iraq by the imperialist US forces, under the false pretense of getting at Saddam’s WMDs, was a criminal act, under international law! Hitler did the same in Europe some 60 years ago, and you know what happened to him, and to his associates who ended up in front of an international court in Nuremberg.

Any person of average intelligence would have clearly understood that I was comparing Hitler and Bush ONLY regarding their illegal invasions of sovereign countries.

To which you responded

....Other than to say that once you compare anyone to Hitler you have lost any argument.

Since apparently you seem not to have understood my English, I elaborated in my following post what I meant in my comparison. But you still insist with your later post that I was not explicit enough as to why I compared the two evils, and reiterates,

You started the argument comparing Bush to Hitler and you did it without any details. Only after did you come in and add details. Yes, you do lose an argument when you invoke a Hitler comparison.

What can I say, except the man is hopeless?

And regarding your latest attack

Just as you show your bigotry toward anything american. I am surprised that you even call yourself that since your hatred oozes out of every post. I am surprised that you show your hypocrisy by defending France. The Butchers of Rwanda were responsible for 800,000 deaths. France was responsible for 1,5 million Algerian deaths. I am surprised that you would even bring up the u.s. and saddam since the number one supplier of arms to Iraq was France. Hypocrisy thy name is tintin.

Yes, I am American. I came to the USA when I was 18. I was not born by accident in the USA, but chose freely to become part of a USA which is NOT the USA of George W. Bush. The messianic G.W.Bush under the guidance of the neocons, has transformed a benevolent, generous country, which was the envy of the world, into a world renegate.

I do not show hypocrisy by defending France. As with Roy, I only defend France on its decision not to have participated in an illegal war perpetrated by Bush and Co. I don’t care the “whys” it happened, the result is that France did not become an accomplice, as England did, in the raping of Iraq. And talking about “assumptions,” what makes you “assume” that I supported France in its role in Rwanda? That is a rather BIG “assumption on your part. As a matter of fact, I am glad to report that today, the French Defence Minister, Mrs Michele Alliot-Marie, is declassifying 105 notes from the DGSE (General Department for the External Security) pertaining to the France presence (and hopefully its role) during the Rwanda genocide. These notes will become part of record in the investigation of the TAP (Tribunal aux Armees), following a law suit started in February 2005 by surviving Tutsis. So there is a faint hope that justice may prevail, but knowing the military…

On the Rwanda genocide, the USA and France were indeed again allied: the French army was helping (according to some evidences) the genocide on the ground, while Clinton and Madeleine Albright were, for more than one year, desperately keeping the word “genocide” from the Rwanda reports to the UN Security Council. As you know, the word “genocide” on such a report would have automatically provoked a UN intervention, and after the Somalia fiasco, this was the last thing Clinton wanted to have happened, never mind the fate of these 800,000 Rwandans.

Regarding Algeria, I voted with my feet and became a deserter, after I had refused to serve working in a military laboratory on nuclear weapons (This was in 1964, just after I had obtained my Ph.D. in nuclear physics), and was offered, as an alternative, a 24 months, all expenses paid “vacation” in this North African Country. So don’t you dare “assume” that I would endorse, in even the smallest way, the Algerian war.

And please don’t lecture us about France selling weapons to Saddam, given the fact that the US provided the logistical support and supplies to a country which used banned WMD. Selling weapons is a dirty business, but, I am sorry to say, the US is the leading player by far in this sordid commerce.

Your parting words

Time to show your French side and get out the white flag tinny tin tin, my boy.

I guess you mean like the US in Viet Nam? Your words are typical of an ignoramus. Go tell this to the 1.4 million and 220,000 French soldiers who died in WWI and WWII, respectively.

PS. Why don't you check the forum archives and you will see your several attempts at France bashing? You will also find some innuendos as to your political persuasion by few people who seem to know you well. You will then will understand why I had the opinion I have of you.

 

[tintin]

Rien,

Don’t be impressed by the 3 URLs Jim proposes as proof of Saddam involvement with international terrorism. The first and last are from “famous unknowns,” and of course, the middle one

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 4eyieu.asp

is from the Weekly Standard, founded by William Kristol, one of the leading neocons who gave us the Iraq War. W.Kristol is also the chairman of the Project for the New American Century, and that says it all.

This aside, Jim’s references are not biased. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Roy]

Jim, I apologize profusely for any personal offense you have taken from any of my posts regarding this discussion. I did not mean to “pick on Iowa” and I should have better presented what I really had in mind when I mentioned Iowa...and that was only as being exemplary of the conservative mid America...the breadbasket or bible belt of America.

In this discussion, there is no right or wrong opinion. There should also be no room for personal attacks, and I for one have no interest in personalizing this discussion in any manner what so ever. While I do not agree with many of your views, I respect them as much as I respect others whose views are shared with mine. Additionally, I also admire and respect your tenacity and courage in presenting your views.

As opposed to others who are involved in this discussion, I have personally met you, and I regard you very highly. Your political views have absolutely nothing to do with my personal regard and respect for you as a man, father, or husband.

I guess what I am trying to get at is that I personally will not allow one of the casualties of any terrorist attack to be the friendships I have formed over the years. If any of us allows that to happen, then we only become another victim of terrorism.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Tintin,
Godwin's rule is appropriate no matter what you say. You even admit doing so in your very first comment on the thread.

Bert has asked to stop the personal attacks. I have done so, you have not, that says something about you.

http://www.afrol.com/articles/16082

Rwandan officials do not accuse the U.S. of being involved in the genocide but do accuse the French. You go on to say that the U.S. was a "benevolent, generous country, which was the envy of the world" but then follow it up that Clinton and Albright conspired to keep "genocide" out of the terminology thus stopping an intervention. You must be confused because in just the earlier paragraph you said the U.S. was a benevolent generous country until G. Bush. It sounds like it hasn't been a generous country long before G. Bush. Again, the country where the massacre occurred certainly think it was France's fault. But keep spinning.

You hypocrisy lies in the fact that you support the actions of the French before, during and after the Iraqi war. You support the fact that France gave military intelligence to Iraq, about one of it's allies? Do you support that Saddam bribed members and friends of the French government? Do you support the French telling Saddam that they would stop any invasion of Iraq by using their U.N. veto, thus making it more difficult to convince Saddam to adhere to the U.N. resolutions? You attack the U.S. on this but defend France for not getting involved. They were involved just on the side of Saddam.

YOU brought up weapons sales to Iraq, not me.
"But at least the French did not provide, as did the US, Saddam with the raw material to manufacture poison gas".
That is the other point that shows your hypocrisy. You know that the materials that you say were used as raw materials are also used in agriculture and was sold to Iraq as such. France on the other hand was the leading ARMS seller to Iraq. Saddam wasn't flying F-14s, he was flying Mirages.

The U.S. in Vietnam? Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to stop. Read this interview with the general who headed the North Vietnamese army. He says that they had lost the military war, the Tet offensive was a massive disaster but they stayed fighting because of what they saw on the american news. The anti-war crowd lost the war and destined millions to the killing fields. The same will happen in Iraq if the U.S. leaves now.

http://www.viet-myths.net/buitin.htm

So let me get this straight. You're a French military deserter, and you are proud of this fact?

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Roy,
I agree with you on many things politically, I just don't chime in because you usually say it so much better than me.

We just disagree on this one issue. I appreciate that we can have this conversation without resorting to names such as ignoramus, bigot, etc. I am sure that you will continue to try to persuade me and I will continue to try and persuade you! Not that it will really matter in the big picture....Can I stop the war? No. Can you stop the war? No. This is just a way for many to release their frustrations regarding this war, myself included.

 

[Roy]

Well then, and as Martha Stewart would say, “that’s a good thing.” I don’t mean to seem glib by that comment, as I am very happy that we understand each other.

Go and vote Tuesday my friend, and just pull the democrat party lever. In doing so, you’ll be doing me, yourself and your family, a big favor!

 

[London]

DAMN!!!!

Missed it!

Great thread! 8)

 

[jogry blok]

What about the saying" If you are not for me, you are against me?

 

[Jimbo]

And I thought it was the English against the French or perhaps not!

I must be some what of a wimp as I cannot commit or feel so deeply over some one writing something I disagree with on the Internet. My life is too short.

Now a good face to face arguement fuelled by some alcohol and I am your man......even the next morning when we kiss and make up.

 

[dawnofjedi]

Hello All...

I just wanted to chime in here and give my absolute support to Jim Thorpe and his clear and rational arguments.

I think I have already wasted enough time here posting on these kind of issues. I strongly believe that the Iraq war has been a major mistake and has been more of a facilitator for terrorism than quencher. But frankly, I think the majority of you are simply a bunch of tunnel vision idealists that seem to think that everything in the world was already perfect the day we entered Iraq and that if we never went there we'd all be holding hands with the Islamist extemists and dancing together with flowers in our hair.

Newsflash: There was PLENTY of extremist Islamic terrorism long before Iraq.

You guys are completely lost and misguided. Sorry. No intellectual or historical arguments this time. Too much hatred and death being sown in the world on a daily basis by extremist Islamic fanatics, in places where American influence is not even a fraction of the issue of why they are fighting (i.e. Philippines/Thailand). It's you guys whose rhetoric and hatred sounds an awful lot like the extremists. Thus, its just a waste of time with you guys. And dont bring up any 'Islamophobia' arguments on me, because I will be the first to say that it is only a minority that follows this extremism. And many of my best friends including family are muslim. But the extremists do very much exist, and they are not afraid to perpetrate daily acts of evil, regardless of how much you guys want to be blind about that.

Tintin...you might live in America and call yourself American, but I would hope somebody passes on information about you to the CIA or FBI, because as you so ridiculously liken Bush to Hitler, I see your seething hatred as being in the veign of oh, lets say, Timothy McVeigh. Chill out dude....

And anyone that thinks USA is the greatest evil in the world might find a better holiday destination in the Pakistan tribal areas than our beloved Bali.

I hope they receive you well there. Say hi to Osama for me.

OM NAMAH SHIVAYA[/b]

 

[dawnofjedi]

and one thing more...

all of this rhetoric being posted here by fanatics such as Tintin that are seeming to absolve the role of Islamic extremism in today's global issues is absolutely deplorable in light of the current genocide being perpetrated in Sudan by the Arab militia Janjaweed...

although I believe the USA should do plenty more to end this misery, I believe that our public condemnation of it and calls to action are at least a little more positive than the al-Qaeda rhetoric urging its perpetuation...

hmmmm...now where is the good and evil in this argument? take off the blindfolds guys...

OM NAMAH SHIVAYA