Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences....

[Roy]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

DCC, just in case you missed the point on this string, we are talking about HEROIN!

Discussing alcohol and the prohibition period in the US within this context is tantamount to discussing firecrackers and atomic weapons within the same topic.

Indonesia doesn’t want this shit around, and I am all for whatever they do to keep it out of this culture.

Views brought to Indonesia by Westerners who have conceded to the war on drugs are really not welcomed here, nor do they prosper a drug free Indonesia. If I were you, I’d ponder that very, very seriously. :evil:

I’m raising my family here in Bali, so if I have to personally shoot these bastards, I’ll do it without even blinking an eye as the gun fires.

YOU, DCC, should take a little more serious attitude about the luck you currently have by living here on Bali...AND a much greater sense of responsibility to preserve the unique aspects of what makes Bali, Bali. As I read your past posts, I haven’t seen one inkling of that.

 

[iainsomers]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

I agree totally with Roy. Even though I'm dutch and the punishments for drugs traffic and possesion are the most lenient in the world I see the need for harsh punishments on drugs (I think only very harsh or very lenient can work, not something in between).

The point that irritates me (and not only in this case) is the fact that every country suddenly tries to interfere with national laws, when one of their own citizens is in problems. They can ofcourse help them maybe with lawyers or things like that, but in my opinion never with critising the national laws. I never heard indonesia or thailand critisize Australian or US laws.

I'm not pro death-penalty and I think that in some cases the laws are very hars on people in Indonesia, but If you go there or live there you just need to accept. When I'm going to live in Bali, I'll obey to the Indonesian law, just like I expect foreigners in the Netherlands to obey the dutch laws.

By trafficing drugs to an asian country, you know you take a very high risk. A risk that probably pays of very good if you dont get caught (I assume a normal risk/reward-ratio), but if you get caught there is a big risk of paying with your life. So be it. I dont care that they get shot, there are more terrible things in life happening to innocent people.

 

[Sanurian]

RE: Indonesia

I personally find the level of ignorance still associated with many "debates" about "drugs" quite astonishing. It's about the same as thirty years ago when I was involved in drug education programmes in Australia.

One example that I'll never forget involved giving some lectures to Police Academy recruits in Sydney. The main stumbling block then was "What is a 'drug'?" Is caffeine a "drug"? Is alcohol a "drug"? Is heroin a "drug"? Is Coca-Cola a "drug" (with its caffeine content)? And so on. Most of the young cops would immediately jump on heroin as definitely being a "drug". But not the other "drugs". Obviously, they were thinking about substances people imbibe that are either "legal" or "illegal". And therein lies the biggest problem with this kind of discussion: the legality of what we drink/smoke/inject/sniff/snort/eat and which society we do it in.

It's quite easy to demonstrate with accurate figures that the greatest number of drug-related deaths are due to legal drugs, such as alcohol and tobacco. By a long shot! (Pardon the pun.) So what's with the hysteria (and bias) surrounding the illegal substances?

Trading in illicit drugs and their manufacture is a huge industry world-wide. The drug lords, (and their supporters), have no interest in their "products" becoming legalised simply because they would lose billions of dollars in the process. The people who push drugs are mostly just small cogs in the wheel and many get overly-greedy by cutting substances with adulterates to increase their own profits. This works particularly well for them with addicitive substances, albeit at the price of casualties...those users, for instance, addicted to opiates (like heroin). Impurities and varying drug strengths lead to deaths. High prices force addicts to rob, steal, even kill to get their next fixes.

Nicotine and alcohol are the really big killers but most people in most countries don't have to worry about getting arrested for a couple of cases of wine or a few cartons of cigarettes. Legal drugs, right? Where's the balance/logic here? If one looks at a country like Indonesia with its enormous number of smokers, it's hard to see how it could function economically without them. (Of course, the government doesn't factor-in the cost of health-care for the smokers who succumb to cancers in the future.) Should Indonesia ban smoking?

Should any country attempt to ban "drugs", currently legal or otherwise? As far as I am aware, all attempts at things like prohibition have never worked (and never will, in my opinion). Those attempts just drive the prices up. There will always be a market for booze, cigarettes and all the rest. Tossing people into prisons doesn't work either...nor do death sentences.

A few years ago, a very high-ranking police official in Surabaya was busted for dealing in drugs. I find that "case" interesting in that his photograph was not splashed all over the Indonesian media and to this day, his "prosecution" seems to have dropped below the radar (unless he's still appealing). Or maybe he bought his way out.

As for the Bali Nine: Nothing in their case makes me feel that they shouldn't get what they deserve. You do the crime, you pay the time. However, I think the same rules should apply to local Indonesians, especially if they're police, or others in positions of power.

Oh..and I don't think statements like this add anything to the equation (sorry, Roy):

...a drug free Indonesia...I’m raising my family here in Bali, so if I have to personally shoot these bastards, I’ll do it without even blinking an eye as the gun fires...

Shoot as many people as you want, it won't work. And if you did, some of us might smuggle a laptop into your prison cell (easy these days with the enhanced security we have, eh?) There will never be such a thing as a "drug free Indonesia" (or anywhere else for that matter).

:wink:

 

[Guest]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Sanurian,
Is that a picture of yourself or someone else in your heading? It is a cool picture. I agree with you on your stance about the general ignorance most people have as their own views on drugs and the Drug War. When will we learn that criminalizinf drug users and abusers doesn't solve anything when all they are charged with is possesion of some sort. Most jails, even here in the US dont even prepare criminals to renter the civilian world after serving their time so they have to resort to the same behavior eith because no one will hire them because of their criminal record or because they just dont know what else to do except sell drugs. These criminals dont know anything else and they dont want to work for a measley $5.15 (US federal minimum wage) so they go back to doing what they know best once released from prison. I assume this is probably the case in Australia and indonesia as it is here in the wealthiest country in the world. Criminalizing someone for only using or abusing drugs is a mistake, and will never solve anything. I think i read somewhere that 6.5 out of every 10 young black males are in jail for drug possesion or distribution in the US. That is a lot of people that will serve time in a jail or prison that 99% of the time wont prepare them for getting a real job that they can actually survive on once they are released and not a job that pays $5.15 an hour. Oh i was also interested in knowing if there is such a thing as minimum wage in Indonesia and what the amount is if anyone knows. it is probably higher than here in the US. :lol: :lol:

 

[iainsomers]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

There is a minimum wage. Dont know the height.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

RE: Indonesia

Here is a site that has the minimum wages for each province. It is a bit dated but you can get a general idea. The last I heard was that it was raised to 250,000rp per month or about $28 US.

http://www.dol.gov/ilab/media/reports/o ... onesia.htm

 

[DCC]

RE: Indonesia

I guess you don't trust your kids Roy. Your narrow mind can just stay content with fighting fire with fire - look how successful it works with terrorists. Free your mind and your ss will follow. And by the way it aint no war - that's only in your head. And you obviously can't read well, I never mentioned Bali or Indonesia. And I do my part by LOVING the people aound me and staying quite clear of drugs and all the evil that you appearently see every where. Now go back to pretending your Balinese.

 

[Mark Wales]

RE: Indonesia

I have been closely following this topic and I am saddened that some views expressed defy all logic and is an assault on the senses of anyone reading them. The whole point of this topic has been waylaid by the enthusiasm of infantile cerebrums.

 

[dandan]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Heroin killed my ex girlfriends sister , and nearly killed my aunty , it truly is a terrible drug. I feel sorry for the so called "mules" and especially their families. Should they be put to death? Should anyone be put to death? I dont know.
What I do know is this, if the death penalty in Indonesia reduces the number of people affected by heroin here in Australia(or anywhere else) then it is a good thing.
As for money buying justice I think it does seem to be true worldwide, only the degree to which it is true changes. Sad but true.
One more thing, boycotting a country is just silly. It doesnt help the average people who live there at all.

 

[Roy]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

DCC, you might want to pick of a copy of the book, BALI, LIVING IN TWO WORLDS, which is a collection of essays by Balinese intellectuals and edited by the well known and highly regarded Urs Ramseyer.

In that book, you may want to pay particular note to the chapter by Sugi B. Lanus of North Bali titled Drug Abuse and Prostitution in Bali. Sugi is Balinese, university educated and a highly regarded activist especially in HIV/AIDS awareness and prevention.

In this book, one passage reminds me very much of your current status in the expatriate community of Bali. Don’t take this personally, as there are many in this same boat as I find you:

"Historically, the Balinese culture has been made of several layers of outside cultures arriving on the island. The culture has been constructed out of the interactions of the already settled with the newcomers. Nowadays, there is such an imbalance in the ways we, Balinese, perceive and treat outsiders: the tamu being very special and anak jawa (other Indonesians) being subject of our suspicion. I am afraid that this naïve attitude is a precursor of imminent disaster for the Balinese..."



As for this that you wrote:

And you obviously can't read well, I never mentioned Bali or Indonesia.

Golly! I thought this string was about Bali and Indonesia. For that matter, that’s what I thought this whole forum was about. DCC, it’s expected that when you post on this forum that if your comments relate to somewhere else, then you should mention that...to avoid confusion, etc.

And as for this:

I guess you don't trust your kids Roy.

CLEARLY written by someone who is NOT a dad!

DCC, I assure you that I am not the one with the narrow mind. Can I go back to playing with my kris and dressing up for temple now?

 

[Guest]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Can't we all just get along?

Dandan,

I am very sorry to hear that. And my prayers are with you and your family. Herion is a nasty drug and I have no doubt about that. Herion and other drugs ruin peoples lives and the lives of people that care about them. Most herion abusers aren't even aware of the affect it has on the people that are close to them that dont even use, they (Abusers) are completely oblivious to this fact.

Mark Wales,
Get out of your cave in afghanistan and while you are there think about what you say before you start criticizing people and there "infantile cerebrums." Oh by the way, say hi to bin laden for me if you get a chance... Hehe.. Jk dude.. Take it easy man, you seem way to serious

 

[Sanurian]

RE: Indonesia

As far as I know there is still no national minimum wage in Indonesia although many labour groups have been pushing for one for a long time.

There are regional minimum wages, but not everybody gets paid them. The highest minimum wage is currently in Jakarta and I believe it's Rp 900,000 (approx. US$97) per month. Various labour groups are pushing for about Rp 1.5 million/month (US$163).

Restaurant and bar staff in Bali typically get paid between Rp 400,000 - 600,000/month. Those working for big hotels, etc, may get paid a little more.

Rafeal:

...it is probably higher than here in the US...

I doubt it, but I know you're joking.

8)

 

[Jimbo]

RE: Indonesia

1. Banning of something only drives it underground

2. Criminalising something does not prevent it happening.

Strange to see this because in my opinion it misses the point. All society's have laws. The purpose of a law is protect. That why we ban guns, speed, drugs and whatever is decided by the majority. There will always be a minority of law breakers that is life as to get everyone to agree is impossible.

I think however no sane person would want the anarchy that would ensue if there was no laws or no law with regard to certain drugs which are classed as harmful by the governments we elect. If you believe this get up on your soap box and state "vote for the pro fre use of heroin party" See how many votes you get.

Remember also those who espouse the Alcohol is a killer theory that it is not the alcohol that is the problem it is the abuse of it. Tobacco on the other hand IMO should be banned but at the end of the day it is the laws as made by the countries we live in and the govenments we vote in power that will decide.

As for me I am a child of the sixties and tried most drugs at one time or another. I also remember the young lady who stopped me doing them and saved me from what could well have been an addiction that could have killed me.

Do I want my children to go through that experiment also.. no, no a thousand times no. or anybody elses children for that matter. Am I against open (or closed) sale of drugs. Yes I am and will do what I legally can to stop the dealers in death and destruction and the hell with those who want to legalise it. But if you succeed I will not be living in this world.

 

[Ilu]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

I am a sosial worker an I work with drug adicts. Every day I see what heroin do to the abuser and the family. I have friends in Bali who start using drugs, and I have seen what that do to them. I know people who has death penalty for seling much les drugs than the Bali 9.

DRUGS KILLS. I have seen to many people die from heroin and other drugs.

Drugs never bring any good things with it. I think that long and tough sentence is the only way to stop people who sell and produce it. I dont axept death penalty, but we have to axept that that is the law in Indonesia.

In norway the people who sell drugs dont always get prison sentence and if they do they live like in a hotel. of course they start all over again when they get out.

 

[Roy]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Maybe I can step in and moderate this discussion only because I’ve been on both sides of the same fence as you guys.

Rafeal, first of all you should be proud to be able to call yourself a Vietnam War Veteran. I would only ask if you really think your new avatar is the most appropriate for a forum that is devoted to discussing Bali, and other parts of Indonesia as well?

Bert is working on political topic forum to be added to Bali Expat Forum, and hopefully, this will be done soon. I think Bert agrees that world politics have a direct impact on Bali and Indonesia, thus to some degree warrants discussion. The problem with raising politics on a string which began as another topic is once that issue is raised, the string is essentially high-jacked and the original topic discussion becomes lost.

What do you guys think? Can we all wait until Bert gets this new segment finished?

 

[Guest]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Roy,

I am very proud of my service to my country and was not trying to be political at all but was rather replying to Mr. Wales's better than attitude. If you read what he previously wrote, i think you too would think it was a little jaded. But in all honesty I was just joking around with him and he obviously doesn't like to joke. We should probably just close this topic down all together since it has been here for awhile. Why arent you a moderator on this forum? Some people seem to run away and hide especially when they are confronted about a topic, especially on this thread.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Re: RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentence

We should probably just close this topic down all together since it has been here for awhile.

Your wish is my command...