Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences....

[charlie]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Raphael Wrote:

Whether the drugs themself were a death sentence to 30,000 other people in australia like someone aforementioned is up for debate just like my stance is.

I wrote:

The guy in singapore had enough heroin to affect the lives of 30,000 people, either directly of indirectly.

I'm having a problem with this thread because you don't seem to read what other people are writing and then go off on your crusade. Read things properly before you start ranting.

 

[tintin]

RE: Indonesia

Thorsten,

You write,

PS: Daniel get your numbers right, the last official statement I've heard reagrding civil victims in Iraq was 350,000, the statement was given by G.W.B. personally in a life interview, this was already some months ago!

First and foremost, I seriously doubt that G.W.B. would admit such a thing, even if it were true. This would go totally against his mantra, in every speech he makes, that things are going well in Iraq and the situation is improving. So, if you don’t mind, give us more info about this famous Bush’s speech of yours, because it surely would have made headlines all around the world and in the US.

If you remember, General Tommy Franks, US Central Command, famously said when asked about civilian casualties, some time ago:

“We don’t do body counts”

So, Bush would surely not contradict his darling generals.

The number I was quoting was a 2004 report in The Lancet that concluded 100,000 Iraqi civilians had been killed. However, Iraqbodycount.net, also known as IBC, co-founded in London by antiwar activist Hamit Dardagan and 16 volunteers, remains the most-cited source for casualty numbers. As of this week, the number of civilian casualties is between 41,639 and 46,307.

In an interview last December, President Bush conceded “30,000, more or less,” but he was revealed later that he was somehow quoting the IBC figures. However, he believed that these 30,000 +/- included also Iraqi military and police casualties.

 

[chickchili]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Hi,
I'm usually a lurker here on this forum but just wanted to comment quickly on one part of this argument. Teenagers dont process and act upon information in the same way that adults do. This is why they are likely to engage in risky and dangerous behaviours eg drinking, dangerous driving, unsafe sex etc. They also have an attitude of invincibility. It is why there are special OH&S considerations for young people in the work place and why there are juvenile justice provisions in most courts. They are more likely to engage in behaviour that they would not as adults. So, to say they knew what they were doing and they knew the risks they were taking is not really true. The younger members of the group would not have really understood the risks nor how they would be treated if they were caught. And I think that most people agree that they are different people in their 30s, 40s, 50s than they were at 17, 18 or 19 with completely different priorities and decision making skills.

 

[Ipanema]

RE: Indonesia

Hi Chickchili

I understand what you are saying I have a 17 year old son. In saying that do you think there should be a lighter sentence because of the age.

One could argue that they were just 'mules' and it would be great if they could catch 'the ringleaders' and give them the death sentence 'if that is the law in that country'.

This is a question I would like to hear some discussion on.

 

[Thorsten]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Sorry Daniel !

What can I say ?
Of course you are right and I apologise for the crap that I wrote!

Coming home after a few drinks with some friends, doing some multi-tasking and still some other things inside my head, I was simply mixing up numbers from a different content, was shooting too fast here
I realised my fault a view minutes after pressing the submit button, but then it was already too late and this damn edit button has also gone!

At least due my thoughtless shot nobody was killed :wink:

best regards
Thorsten

 

[Roy]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Charlie, I agree with you in that I am also having a problem with this string. It is emotionally charged, but that is so very indicative of the world we now are sharing. If we are not charged in this present life, then we are essentially already dead.

As for chickchili’s post, I would only offer some of the cultural differences between Indonesia and Australia...and there are many. One such difference here is that parents of teenagers are not blamed, or held legally culpable for the actions of their teenaged offspring. Adulthood is reached at an early age here...not that I agree with that, but this argument that “they didn’t know what they were doing” because they don’t “process and act upon information” is, in my view anyway...total bullshit.

Unless I am mistaken, the youngest of the Bali Nine, at the time of their arrest, was aged 18. In most countries, that is considered majority age and while it’s too young to vote in the US, it’s the minimal, if not desired age, to join the army and shoot oneself through Iraq.

The term “juvenile” can vary, but in most world courts it’s either 16 or less at the time the crime is committed.

 

[Mark Wales]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Dear rafeal,

Your discourse is enlightening. I have a suggestion - plse take your family to live in Palestine, Pakistan, Iraq or Iran. See for yourself how "ordinary people" live. Their daily tribulations. It is then you will understand what is really happening around the world.
The problem will always be this lack of perception of world events because
USA has always been an island that has never seen countless invasions.
I can understand a country that as late as the sixites practised racial segregation. And now it is slowly moving towards religious intolerance.
I sincerely hope that someone like KING is born to stop this growing madness.

Peace man and plse I request you to think before you put pen to paper.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Chickchili,
Unlike that mean heartless Roy (just kidding) , I agree that some societies allow their children to stay children up until 17-19 years. In my case, I still think I have some maturity issues! However, the majority of the Bali 9 were over 20. I just reviewed their ages over at Wikipedia and only 2 were in their teens with the others being 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29. While I did some stupid things when I was 17-19, I certainly was held responsible for my actions and by the time I was 21-22 there was no way I could use youth as a reason to get off of a crime. So I don't think that we can call them children that were confused. These were adults trying to get a big payout for running heroin into a muslim country. Others have suggested that they go after the ring-leaders, etc., I suggest that some of the Bali 9 WERE ringleaders. The little guy is the person hanging out in Kuta selling a $10 bag of pot not the people bringing in 8.3 kg's of heroin worth multi-millions of dollars.

BTW Roy, you can vote in the U.S. at age 18. You can kill people in foreign lands by joining the army at 18. You can own a gun at 18. You can get an abortion at just about any age without your parents knowing about it. You just can't drink the demon rum or any alchohol for that matter at 18.....

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Re: RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentence

Dear rafeal,

Your discourse is enlightening. I have a suggestion - plse take your family to live in Palestine, Pakistan, Iraq or Iran. See for yourself how "ordinary people" live. Their daily tribulations. It is then you will understand what is really happening around the world.
The problem will always be this lack of perception of world events because
USA has always been an island that has never seen countless invasions.
I can understand a country that as late as the sixites practised racial segregation. And now it is slowly moving towards religious intolerance.
I sincerely hope that someone like KING is born to stop this growing madness.

Peace man and plse I request you to think before you put pen to paper.

Mark,
Not all problems in the world are caused by the U.S. and to stretch the problems of the Bali 9 into being related to the U.S. and it's lack of racial tolerance in the 60's is really, really stretching it. Especially since for most of us americans posting on this forum, the civil rights marches were either before they were born or were toddlers.
I guess there is no longer a caste system in India? Right? But taking your stance as I see it, your views are no longer valid because it was once and currently practiced in your country. How can we even listen to posts from a person whose country practices child slave labor? Perhaps if you came from a more enlightened country you would understand.
Your constant use of someone's country to grade the quality of their response is insulting and degrades you. Two can play that game.

[/quote] The Prime Minister of the Tang Dynasty was a national hero for his success as both a statesman and military leader. But despite his fame, power, and wealth, he considered himself a humble and devout Buddhist. Often he visited his favorite Zen master to study under him, and they seemed to get along very well. The fact that he was prime minister apparently had no effect on their relationship, which seemed to be simply one of a revered master and respectful student.

One day, during his usual visit, the Prime Minister asked the master, "Your Reverence, what is egotism according to Buddhism?" The master's face turned red, and in a very condescending and insulting tone of voice, he shot back, "What kind of stupid question is that!?"

This unexpected response so shocked the Prime Minister that he became sullen and angry. The Zen master then smiled and said, "THIS, Your Excellency, is egotism."

 

[Roy]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

BTW Roy, you can vote in the U.S. at age 18.

DAMN :!: Can I come back and reverse a vote I made at age 21?


So, Jim, tell me if I've got this straight....US only:

Age 16....you can drive a car, and get a job

Age 16....you cannot have sex

Age 18.....you can vote

Age 18.....you can now have sex

Age 18.....you can now join the armed services

Age 18.....you can die in combat

Age 21....if you survived age 16 to 21, you can celebrate making it that far with a good drink with friends.


Jim, is that accurate, or did I miss something?

 

[Jim Thorpe]

RE: Indonesia

Roy,
Officially you are correct. You can have sex before 18 but not with anyone 18 or over. Or just don't get caught.

So now you have to confess....Who did you vote for when you were 21? My first vote was for Barry Commoner. He only received .27% of the vote for that presidential election so changing my vote wouldn't do a whole lot.

 

[Mark Wales]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Dear Jim,

Great we meet again!

Not all problems in the world are caused by the U.S. and to stretch the problems of the Bali 9 into being related to the U.S. and it's lack of racial tolerance in the 60's is really, really stretching it. Especially since for most of us americans posting on this forum, the civil rights marches were either before they were born or were toddlers.
I guess there is no longer a caste system in India? Right? But taking your stance as I see it, your views are no longer valid because it was once and currently practiced in your country. How can we even listen to posts from a person whose country practices child slave labor? Perhaps if you came from a more enlightened country you would understand.
Your constant use of someone's country to grade the quality of their response is insulting and degrades you. Two can play that game.

Thanks for your candid observations. I have and will always be a harse critic of my country with all its minus points as I will be of other countries.
I fail to understand your insinuations about my views of my country which I have never mentioned. therefore your assumptions are misplaced. I have said so in the past and I am repeating this now that one cannot paint
an entire people with the same colour. Like a few Indians have given India a warped image so are there people in the usa who have blinkers that defy logic. Now don't reply with more misplaced entusiasm and but keep the peace. That's what we are all about (I hope?).

Shall be in Bali on the 12th. Whenever u are there we must meet up over Tequila and satay and agree to disagree. Yes?

 

[Roy]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Who the hell was Barry Commoner? :shock:

Sorry, but no confessions out of me as to whom I voted for way, way back then. Dumb, naïve, stupid, or over influenced...when I did vote...and you can take your pick baby, but I am clam shell tight on that.

I will say this though. In this mid term election, I am not voting for any lap dogs of GW Junior, and that includes Joe Lieberman, for whom I have voted in the past.

Frankly, I’m looking for a “Jack the Ripper” candidate who can bring some sense back to Congress and make the next...and thank God...the last two years of Junior’s Presidency a living hell for that SOB.

Sorry to say, but once Bush is gone, it will take all the efforts of the next (democrat) President his or her full four year term to restore the honor, dignity, respect and pride that America once had in this world.

 

[Roy]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

PS Om Bert...ma'af. But you just can't deny that topics, even those that seem to be uniquely Bali related, in our current climate, may revert to what you deem political.

If the impact of this reality can’t be escaped, then how can it be avoided?

 

[Thorsten]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Hi Chickchili,

Yes, young people (don’t want to call them teenagers) are doing sometimes crazy and dangerous things and when I rethink the stupid, crazy and dangerous things I have done in my youth, then I sometimes wonder how I survived it (some of my friends did not), but these things almost always happen spontaneously, without thinking about the risk and possible consequences!

I also agree, that young people not mature enough to realise the legal responsibility of their acting should be treated differently to adult predators, to re-socialize them is the point here and less punishment – in general.
In Germany juvenile criminals in the age between 14 and 21 years (sometimes even older, depending on the personal development) are charged in front of Youth Courts, the maximum punishment is limited on 10 years imprisonment here.
This is our consideration for a civilised handling of juvenile criminals, generally I would agree with this policy, but not always, sometimes it’s also outrages when young people already with a long criminal history, people who were acting planned and well calculated for instance due murder will get 10 years sentence, free after 7 years, during this time he got an education and everything, this means a young hijacker, rapist and killer of a 14 year old girl can be free again in the age of 25 !

Back to the Bali 9, these guys were not acting spontaneously, it was not like they had some beers too much and suddenly decided to do something stupid, their crime was organised, planned and calculated and at least a few have done this also before, they have a criminal history and nobody can tell me, they haven’t known about the risk!

Roy brought up a very important point in this case!
I read about, that the tip came from the Australian police, something I was amazed about since this will be something unthinkable and even against the law here in Germany, when there is the threat of death penalty anywhere.
I only found out now, that the AFP ( Australian Federal Police) was even informed about the planned crime by parents of the predators before the group was starting this trip to Bali, they were even requested to avoid them leaving the country – they have known about the intention and did nothing to avoid this (justified by national law), then they let them run into the open knife, forwarding the information to Indonesian authorities fully aware of the punishment they would have to face!!!
We don’t have to agree with this Indonesian law in respect of drugs, but we have to respect it and not the police in Bali nor the judges can be blamed due this, they are only doing their job based on national law, but when these guys will have to face a firing squat then, beside their own responsibility due this also the AFP is responsible!

Read some interesting statements here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_Nine

best regards
Thorsten

 

[Jim Thorpe]

RE: Indonesia

Roy, Barry Commoner was the candidate that was going to save the world with his ecological-socialistic approach! Seeing how he only got a bit over 250,000 votes I am not surprised that you haven't heard of him but being a young college student I certainly thought he was very smart! Anti-establishment and all that...

Mark,
We can agree to disagree, but I politely ask that you don't tie the validity of someone's discourse to the politics of their country over 40 years ago. There is no debate that you did this just a few posts up. If so then others can do the same and this will lessen the quality of our conversations. Especially if I tie in the your perceptions as one from a country that currently has child slavery and is in the midst of a religous bombing war. To dispose of someone's argument in that way would be inappropriate, wouldn't you agree?

I will join you in a glass of tequila and a salud to world peace. I will bring the best bottle that I have found....Herradura - Antigua 1870. It is a lot better than their Anejo.

Salud,

 

[Sergio]

Re: RE: Indonesia

I do not understand the furure. These people wer smuggling out kilo's of heroin. Why? to sell for profit and ruin the lives of others.

Do you think they cared about them No! If one of their victims died of an overdose do you think the parents of that victim whoud say "Oh they were just young kids" let them off with a light sentance.

These young kids were not just trying out a joint they were smuggling hard drugs to sell for profit not for personal use. All this from a country well publicised for it's harsh sentances for drug runners.

I do not feel sorry for them only for the victims of such people. Maybe now it will finally deter such people from using Indonesia and Bali in particular from running drugs.

Jimbo, you for sure see the bigger picture here. However...

No loving person wants to kill another human being... revenge, rage and hatred when someone has hurt a loved one might make someone want to kill someone, however, those emotions should have nothing to do with the justice system which makes me wonder what the reason are then (tax payers dollars of course). You illustrate how very serious hard drug trafficking is, I personally don't see marijuana as being any worse than alcohol (other than it being illegal) but hard drugs is an entirely different issue and you are right! Whether these guys would ever intentionally hurt people or not, the fact of the matter is they made a conscious choice knowing fully well that their actions would hurt, destroy and yes even kill the lives of other people. Still though, I do not believe in capital punishment. A life sentence with the chance of parole should always be an option for good behavior in most cases (not including repeat offenders of certain crimes).

We all make mistakes, yes they were ignorant selfish fools, but in all honesty, I have done some pretty stupid things in my myself. The point is that I don't do those things anymore (thank God)! It did not take me a life time to change my ways either.

One more thing, yes you are right that these guys should pay dearly for their actions, but those who do drugs are as guilty as those who deal drugs. We should all take responsibilities for our actions but if death is the answer how can one learn? Or don't they deserve a second chance?

Peace...

 

[Guest]

RE: Indonesia's Supreme Court has increased the sentences...

Sergio,
I completely agree with your stance on this matter. Unlike in Canada here in the US we have district attorney's (DA's) that get invloved in investigations and are somewhat prejudice when it comes to prosecuting criminals because they have already gotten their hands dirty. In Canada you have DA's but I am not sure what they are called, but they do not get involved with investigations like they do here in the US. I am not sure what the equivalent of a DA here in america is in Indonesia, but they must have had some siginificance in the outcome of the appeals that were filed in Jakarta supreme court. What i find backwards in this case is in particular that the supreme court sentenced them to death after you file an appeal. I know Indonesian law cant be anything like Common Law because this wouldnt have happened. It is almost like the supreme court in jakarta were sitting on their high benches and believed that how can these (Bali 9) have the audacity to appeal this decision from a lower court. The whole point of a supreme court is to see if all the proper porocedures and rulings were done properly when the lower court heard the case, not to change a 20 year sentence to death. I dont know a lot about indonesian law so some of this is conjecture but it just seems very backwards. Why would the bali 9's lawyers file an appeal if the knew that there was the slightest chance that the appeal could become a death sentence. The parents of these australians must be livid at their attorneys. How could something like this happen? If america and indonesia adopted more of what Canada does in their country and their judicial system america and Indo. would be such a better country than it is now. We have a lot to learn from you Canucks, eh, eh, eh! Too bad we are just too stuborn of a country to learn from our mistakes and to do anything except the "American Way."

I originally started this post because I know it would form interesting debate and hopefully from my point of view a lot of disgust at the sentencing reversal from an appeals decision to even harsher punishment. It seems like some people think that it is ok for people to die as a punishment for what i view as a somewhat "petty crime" in the grand scope of crimes that can be comitted and have been comitted by criminals.

Isn't it also ironic that you can go to a bar in Seminyak and legally buy "Magic mushroom shakes" and trip your brains out to the point where you could become psychotic and murder if you were a screwed up individual to begin with but having a marijuan joint in your ciggerete pack is going to send you to kerobaken for 5 years or some crap like that because marijuana is "sooo dangerous." This seems as backwards as the towns folk I saw in West virginia last weekend river rafting on the New River.

 

[Jimbo]

RE: Indonesia

Rafeal

You completely miss the point. The defense attorneys ask for a review of the sentence in the hope of getting it reduced. This opened the way for the prosecution to ask for it to be increased as well.

It was the validity of the sentance that was under revue and the judges thought it was too light and increased it.

I cannot speak for legal systems in all countries but I am sure this is a common point of law in many.

Sergio

Nothing in my remarks had anything to do with the death sentence or if it was right or wrong only to do with the excuse of using what was perceived as youth being a reason.

There must also be a lot of non loving people in the world as thousands are getting killed each day.

I am tired of it all and at the everlasting violence in thought, word and deed of so called loving people almost inevitably brought on by the intolerance of mankind to live in peace with each other. This has happened throughout history and I can no longer see a solution. Call me old and jaded but I just feel like I want a fortress to protect me, my family and friends from all of this.

The Toraja hillside where things are much simpler (although for how much longer I do not know) are calling stronger than ever. Along with North Bali

 

[DCC]

RE: Indonesia

Approve of it or not, drug use is a world wide fact that is not going away. Alcohol is the number 1 misused intoxicant in the world and many many more people die from its effects than the do from drug overdoses, yet it remains acceptable while anything else is the devils own. Labeling those who overdose victims may be correct but they where victims of themselves. The war on drugs should be fought with treatment and education. The criminalization of drugs has created the beast that rewards its traders and puts the added pressure of incarceration on those already suffering from delusion and dependence, and that makes them much more dangerous. And nearly all of the violence associated with drugs is a result of it being an illegal business - remember the era of prohibition in the US.

That said, I don't think you should be outraged with a court system acting within the rules, but you could a change in attitude by governments.