Indonesia, Drugs and Justice

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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I lived in bali for 2 years in seminyak and Kerobokan. . I now go there perhaps every 2 months. I studied bahasa Indonesia in UI and UKSW and have a degree in south east asian politics. I have quite a mischeivous friend there who happens to be a police officer in denpasar originally from the Semarang area.

Roy what has your quote got to do with other than show the usual inter-ethnic racism in Indonesia. Everone has a grudge against the javanese, the Batak, Ambonese, acehnese in particular.

These evil international drug traffickers, are they going to try and sell drugs to low income balinese or high income tourists and expats. PLus drugs have been in bali ever since surfers came to bali in the 60's. It is not a new phenomena. Balinese arent just going to wake up and say...ohh drugs..lets all become drug addicts.
 

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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Is the reputable NYT, the paper that had to grovel and apologise about its WMD in Iraq stories?? amongst other things. Who was that journalist they had to fire because he forget to write non-fiction?
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Sheesh, The Guardian and BBC didn't even pick it up. Noticed also Al Jazeera is missing from your list. I repeat if there was any substance in the story it would have been front page on the New York Times, Washington Post, Times of London not to mention every tabloid in the UK. It wasn't and spin it how you like that was devastating for McGeogh's credibility. In fact I don't believe any other non affiliated Australian newspaper picked it up; there was embarassed silence all round except within the Australian Journalists Association.

Just to give a little extra context and as you are well aware this thing was published in the middle of a US Presidential election and was potential dynamite.
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Is the reputable NYT, the paper that had to grovel and apologise about its WMD in Iraq stories?? amongst other things. Who was that journalist they had to fire because he forget to write non-fiction?

Completely 100% true. They find their mistakes and acknowlege them. Don't hold your breath waiting for the SMH to ever do that. Jayson Blair is I believe the unfortunate journalist you are talking about. Had he worked in Australia he would no doubt have a Walkley award.
 

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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Lou we could zip open our pants and flop it out to prove who has the most credible source but what is your point. I am saying the Indonesian judicial system is extremely corrupt . You are saying that there is corruption in Australia. I agree.
How does this relate to the corby case? You can find corruption in any country. Does corruption in Australia means its ok that is is systematic and endemic in the indonesian system.
Where would you rather stand trial, if you were innocent and werent able to bribe yourself out of it?
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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Ubud, Bali
Radson writes:

I lived in bali for 2 years in seminyak and Kerobokan. . I now go there perhaps every 2 months.

That explains a lot, many thanks.

Radson further writes:

Roy what has your quote got to do with other than show the usual inter-ethnic racism in Indonesia. Everone has a grudge against the javanese, the Batak, Ambonese, acehnese in particular.

Without quoting Sugi’s entire essay or interview, which you can find in the aforementioned book, I thought the issue he was raising was evident enough. His point, as elaborated in his essay, is that the Balinese should become more suspicious of foreigners…the exalted tamu.

Thanks for your CV. You’d be surprised with the backgrounds and education levels of many of the expats in Bali.

Finally, this quote from you:

I have quite a mischeivous friend there who happens to be a police officer in denpasar originally from the Semarang area.

And? Is there a point to this? Do you not think most of us are without our own connections each with their own capacity for mischief?
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Where would you rather stand trial, if you were innocent and werent able to bribe yourself out of it?

Depends on the crime Radson. If I were a Lebanese youth in Sydney accused of raping an Australian girl then I'd not like my chances there in the current environment.

My point all along has been that the Corby case is being handled properly in Bali. Corruption is not an issue (ok if you insist -it's not an issue on this occasion, so can we please leave that red herring out of further discussion). The defence could have been better but they have been clutching at straws. This lady has some explaining to do and nothing presented so far has been very convincing. The media is trying, very successfully to turn it around and say Indonesia has some explaining to do and that's insulting nonsense.

What irritates me is the injection of trial by the media with all the advanced and highly developed skills deployed by Australia. To me it's like saying which is the more credible court. The one in Bali or the one on 2GB talk back radio.

Lou we could zip open our pants and flop it out to prove who has the most credible source but what is your point.

Sorry if you had read the whole thread it would be obvious. Let me put it in very simple words. The Australian media is attempting to try the Corby case by stirring up mass hysteria. They have a long history of doing this but the credibilty of their reporting is frequently suspect and as a group truth is not high on the agenda. An excellent example of that is giving a known liar their highest journalistic award for a fake story.
 

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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Roy, actually i read your quote wrong and now I see what he means and I agree with it. It happens naturally enough anyway, the more contact indigenous people have with bules, the less in awe they are of them.
 

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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I cant agree that is being handled properly. The fingerprint issue is a clear example of that. Plus from my "contacts" in the police department, i am hearing someone messed up the evidence and now pushed against a wall, no one wants to admit they are wrong. What has been presented..a bag in a bodyboard bag. This evidence has been corroborated with what??

Please provide evidence that McGeogh is a known liar. Lack of publication in the Guardian, NTY or BBC is not proof.

ONe thing I will agree on is that of all the injustices and suffering in Indonesia, the plight of one blonde bule is not at the top of the list.
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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The fingerprint issue is unfortunate and may or may not have helped Ms Corby. The fact that the error occurred however doesn't establish her innocence.

Plus from my "contacts" in the police department, i am hearing someone messed up the evidence and now pushed against a wall, no one wants to admit they are wrong.

Your contacts are remarkable and you are to be congratulated for their access to the inside story. This is however hearsay ...wouldn't you agree?

What has been presented..a bag in a bodyboard bag. This evidence has been corroborated with what??

It's known as being caught red handed. When this happens you are the one who has to do the explaining.

Please provide evidence that McGeogh is a known liar. Lack of publication in the Guardian, NTY or BBC is not proof.

Radson, I already have, you just don't want to accept it. The fact that the New York Times and other majors didn't pick up this story during an election in which their declared support was for the non incumbent is ample testimony. This story would have been a devastating blow to Bush's campaign so please stop being disingenuous. How you waft off Al Jazeera is beyond belief, if they didn't believe him then the implication is obvious to all but the most obtuse.

This is no small journalistic indiscretion. At best he took a piece of, salacious gossip and reported it as fact. I chided you above and previously for using hearsay but this is only a travel forum, not the front page of a major newspaper.

A decent newspaper would have fired him for it, just as the NYT did with Blair and for much less serious offences. It makes that poor BBC Radio guy, who just put a sentence together poorly on air, look like a complete innocent; he at least had the decency to resign.
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Despite the questionable source, this seems like a good article on the case.

Why on earth say it's a "good" article from a "questionable" source. Australian Journalistic Ethics 101 clearly teaches that you must never mention it was a questionable source. You should cut out the juicy bits paste it into another article and attribute it to a senior and reliable source.

You are, however, 100% correct about that being a questionable source.
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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You are, however, 100% correct about that being a questionable source.

Still I agree with you. It is a good article. That's the first recounting of events that I've seen which describes the plastic bags. The overpowering smell of course would not be apparent until the outer plastic bag was opened. Additionally by that description it sounds like we are dealing with "skunk" ...street value in Bali 4.5Kg @ $20,000 so $90,000 total. Wholesale price in Sydney 4.5Kg @ $4000 so $18,000 all up. Profit $72,000. Not worth risking life in gaol in my opinion but certainly not a small amount of money.
 

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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Talk about heresay. If an Australian journalist is not published in the NYT or Guardian, he is automatically a liar. NOt possible other reason. Like those papers could not find the witnesses McGeogh swore to protect.

Yes it was unfortunate about the fingerprints, wasn't it. So how else has the prosecution tied her to the marijuana in her unlocked bag.

Care to reveal your sources of street prices in Bali for "skunk" and how u know it is "skunk"
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Ubud
Neat twist on a definition of hearsay. It took you all afternoon to come up with that glib nonsense and was posted to take advantage of not being rebutted overnight. As for others being unable to find the sources, I'm sure by the third day of world wide embarassment he would gladly have had a colleague from elsewhere verify them ...had they existed.

The earliest post of mine that first mentioned McGeogh was referenced in the first sentence of your first response to me in this discussion; even though the post you were responding to didn't mention him. Now you are asking about the "skunk" issue, which was covered prominently over 3 paragraphs and referenced to the SMH's Miranda Devine in the same post that you gleaned the original McGeogh reference from. You appear to have a fixation.

Recollect this?

What has been presented..a bag in a bodyboard bag. This evidence has been corroborated with what??


It's known as being caught red handed. When this happens you are the one who has to do the explaining.

Same answer to your same question. Now I have some work to do. Unless you post something compelling to prove McGeogh's fairytale, you will be talking into a vacuum. Just like the one he faced from his worlwide peers.
 

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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nothing machiavellian in the typing of my posts, quite possibly I am on a different work schedule to you.

Equally as likely Allawi threatened everyone else with the same treatment, if anyone else decided to leak the story. But you just prefer to call him a liar because the oh so credible NYT doesnt pick it up. Absence of proof is not proof of abscence as they say.

Caught red handed? That would mean selling the stuff. Found unlocked in a bag with no fingerprints, no prior convivtions, no medical evidence of use.

I ask again what other proof is there to corroborate the evidence.

Has the marijuana been tested as hydroponic or is that Devine just quoting a Bali expat.
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Ubud
Equally as likely Allawi threatened everyone else with the same treatment, if anyone else decided to leak the story. But you just prefer to call him a liar because the oh so credible NYT doesnt pick it up. Absence of proof is not proof of abscence as they say.

If you wish to hallucinate Radson we can't stop you but I'm not prepared to argue semantics with you endlessly. People reading this string of posts and the very reasonable and patient answers you were given will reach their own conclusions; just as the world wide journalistic community did. I'm perfectly happy to rest my case and let the record here speak for itself. As our host Bert would say ..."That's it!" and as I will say again ...it's a vacuum from here on this amigo, enjoy your own echo.

On to other matters. And firstly a qualification. My interest here has been and is the mischeivous role of the Australian media in this case. Ms Corby's guilt or innocence is not my issue and in fact you would be surprised at what my opinion is on that. A justice system however doesn't rest on opinion. It involves process to ensure fair and equitable treatment of an accused and protection of the community.

The Australian media has a record of hijacking that process. Sometimes it is in the interest of an editorial agenda but more often sensationalism. These people I dislike intensely as their complete lack of morality and sickening hypocricy make me want to vomit. Just as in this instance by stirring up the Indonesian authorities with their gratuitous insults and rabble rousing they effectively placed Ms Corby in further jeopardy. And just as they are doing again with their stupid speculations about the Bali 9. In their home country of course they can't get away with quite this kind of circus as it's sub judice until the judge gives a decision. Their ability with innuendo there is however also amazing.

With the above in mind please understand my disinterest in this tedious tit for tat discussion you are conducting. You ask a question, I answer it. You twist the answer and expect me to provide a different answer so that we can continue this asinine pursuit. The only specialty on display is a talent for simplistic one liners and that also gets tedious to deal with after a while ...kind of like those interminable conversations with a Jehova's Witness at your doorstep on Sunday morning. Perhaps they are the original trolls.

So here we go again.

Caught red handed? That would mean selling the stuff.
No, Radson. It doesn't mean that. It means caught redhanded with narcotics in your baggage.

You do however raise a question that stirs my intellectual curiosity and has for some time.

I ask again what other proof is there to corroborate the evidence.

When you get caught red handed with narcotics it's you who gets to do the explaining.

Has the marijuana been tested as hydroponic or is that Devine just quoting a Bali expat.

No idea. That's why the words used in my post are
Additionally by that description it "sounds like" (empahasis added) we are dealing with "skunk

Notice it is not hyped with words like "highly likely", "quoted by a senior Bali Police source" or "a good friend in the prosecution assured me". Just 'it sounds like". Clearly I'm expressing an opinion, not stating a fact. Why don't you read Ms Devine, sounds like you did, and re-read the Socialist World Article. The latter tends to disprove the smart arse editor's headline on the former. Smart arse headlines being a stock in trade of the SMH of course as they have managed to become that contradiction in terms - a broadsheet tablod.
 

radson

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Apr 28, 2005
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Wel I kind of disagree, you havent answered any of my questions. You say that McGeogh is a liar. I asked for proof. Your proof is in abscence in certain papers.

You initially jumped on me for saying the Indonesian judicial system is beneah contempt. I provided many examples of why it is considered one of the worst in the world. You reply with rhethoric of what a judicial system should be. Please explain this so called process. I have a Pengacara opposite me in my office well versed in the Criminal Code and the so called process.

I am sure the mothers whose children die of dengue fever because the bupati comandeered their mosquito spraying funds to buy condos in singapore, or orang kampung who die in landslides because timber comnpanies can fell with no fear of prosecution wished people would criticise their judicial system a bit stronger.

It was the SMH that first had the balls to start speculating on the Suharto clan after the fall of Marcos in the famous Jenkins article. As the Indonesian press can rightly criticise Australia for treatment of indigenous people, pre-emptive stikes, incarceration of refugees. Australia can also have a go at judicial systems, corruption, enviornmental disasters and some very dodgy pesanten in Sumatra and Jawa.
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Ubud
Radson, On the first you are already listening to your own echo. Please enjoy it.

The Indonesian justice system is not beneath contempt but your attitude towards the country is. Beyond that I'm not here to give you a tutorial on the Indonesian judicial system; not that I'm suggesting I could. Ask your Pengacara I'm sure he will oblige. Your main problem in this regard is a blindly held prejudice against all things Indonesian. Any and every morsel that feeds this is filed avidly while any to the contrary hit the circular filing bin immediately and most likely unread. Just read your third paragraph and that might be a little more clear to you - but probably not, such is the depth of your prejudice.

The SMH and balls is an oxymoron. Being a troublemaker from a distance of several thousand miles in another country doesn't not take any courage at all. The Jenkins article may have been gratifying for Jenkins and I'm sure he was extremely pleased when the aircraft full of his fellow countrymen was grounded as a consequence of his self gratification. If you think that any Indonesian was happy about that article you are either sadly mistaken or listening to too many sychophants. There is a right time for everything and Jenkins timing was way off. Just to put to bed any further preening by these academic wankers, they made no contribution to Suhartos downfall - the Indonesians took care of that themselves.

Indonesian press commentary about Australia, while sometimes rough, doesn't try to stir up mass hysteria. Perhaps this is because they lack Australia's famous day long tag team where at 6:00am the SMH throws the ball to Allan Jones for a radio pump up. We then proceed through a ghastly array of latter day Goebbels shock jocks who prime their ratbag audience to a pitch of frenzy. Alternatively this circus may not be to Indonesian's liking; thay may actually see it as the crude, uncivil and boorish nonsense that it is.
 

Lou

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Nov 12, 2004
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Sorry for the typo - "doesn't not" should be "doesn't" - a double negative was certainly not intended.