Indonesia, Drugs and Justice

[InAdelaide]

Discussion about Justice split from the Corby discussion (mod)

About 5 Years ago Australia set up Immigration camps to lock up Illegal immigrants...some people have been locked up for 4 years and there is one guy in limbo as no country will accept him..A prominent Australian Dick Smith is trying to help him at the moment.These people are suffering some have tried to suicide...Other countries are more compasionate how they process Illegal Immigrants. The thing is this hard stance has work as there hasnt been any arrivals for years.
The Indonesian Goverment should not soften there stance with dugs...If convicted they should suffer the penalty...im sure in some cases it wont be a fair outcome but it will deter others. The Australian Government has to protest it because of the media and public but they want to battle the drug problem too.
Last year all crimes (except assult againt wifes was down) while the Police force were claiming credit. There were suggestions that a drop in Herion users and more on the methodone program was a big factor.
Ask anyone that has a family member with a herion addiction what it does to familys and what they will do to get money and you wil soon lose sympathy for any of theys guys that try to traffic it....So what if it was there first time....Usually they work alone or or in pairs and at 10,000 a time over a year it adds up and they dont care who suffers from it...

 

[matahari]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

ofcourse it is a terrible crime to smuggle drugs and there is no excuse or sympathy of doing so, but to send these people to very unhuman jails for the rest of their lifes or sentence them to death is very wrong, and I think it clearly shows that the indonesian and most part of asia`s legal system is far from good...

And another aspect of all this, what kind of people are doing these things, I doubt that there is fortunate and happy people that choose to smuggle drugs...

but I guess it`s a bit naive to think that indonesia and many other countries would change their view on what justice is in the nearest future.

unfortuntly like everything else, "it`s all about the money" if indonesia would be rich or have a steady economy they could and prob. would adress this problem.

 

[Tracey]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Roy,
Having a youngin' myself & another on the way & more to follow I cannot agree more with your anger over drugs...

Also having a very close addicted relative, who's stays in Melb jails are more like a cabin trip for young females! They actually have more rights in there & have more things than I have as a Full Time working, law abiding citizen, I am disgusted in the Australian legal system & would be happy to see much tougher stricter & harsher sentences... Removal of the cabin rooms where our criminals stay & bring it6 back to the concrete room with a tray of slop for meals & a hole in ground for relieving oneself!

I am appaleed that the Govt are sticking their beaks in to the Balinese/Indo legal system, the crimes were committed in Indo & need to be dealt with as the Country deems! With NO interference from Aust!

I watched the news & noted a Fther saying how disgusting & disgraceful the conditions weree in the bali jail, he said he's not house his dog in something so putrid! Well I say "GOOD!" Jail is not about a holiday camp or bonding sessions arou8nd a camp fire or relaxing in your cabnin watching pay TV that the TAx payers pay for yet do not have themselves!

Jail is supposed to be punishment, is it not?

I recall being heavily preg & visiting this close relation in Jail, having some dirty scum bag of a criminal blowing kisses at me. This person whom we visited proceeded to tell us about all the cool stuff they were doing, courses, studying etc!!!!
I walked outta there thinking how would anyone leran anything from being treated like Royalty in Jail?
That's right she hasn't she has been in about 9 times including serving 8 months only 3 months after having a baby that my older sister looked after for the whole 8 months! Her addiction is still rampant she has a gorgeous daughter that we all love to death, but wish that she would give her up so she would have a future! As this person will not change because jail life is so good here & is not a detterrant!

Sorry to have harped on, I don't see any of it as Aussie bashing, if the Govt shut up & let Bali deal with it, then there would be no uproar instead some Aussies & our Govt think by blackmailing, threatening to take away donations & to boycott Bali is gonna make matters worse for Bali & better for Aust! If our citizens did not partake in criminal activity then we would not be in this position, I think we should let Bali get on with their job & accept whatever the outcome & hopefully future drug mules will learn from it! If not,they deserve the same!

 

[Roy]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Wow, Thorsten is right. This is quite an amazing string! Hopefully Thorsten will find some free time and expand more on his view of this situation. We can always count on you, Thorsten, to add a unique facet to whatever string eventually becomes a gem.

Lou’s posts are mind-blowing, especially his insight into the Australian press, how it operates, and how it influences government actions. I should also add that personally, I really like his writing style and his keen ability to maintain an unbiased attitude, even in the heart of some pretty damning observations. I’m more committed and desirous than ever to sit down with you Lou at Nuri’s one day soon!

Tracey, your posts have really impressed me…and they dovetail perfectly with the opinions and attitudes I have heard from other Australian expats. Your complete conviction and emotion is impressive.

Getting back to Thorsten for a second, I agree totally with him in that in spite of the horrific subject we are dealing with, the process and manner of this whole discussion is quite remarkable…and something rarely encountered on other forums. So, hat’s off to you too Bert! You should be proud of the forum you created.

I don’t mean to single out just these contributors, as this whole string is quite remarkable and everyone’s contributions have made it quite special. Don’t ask me why I felt compelled to write this observation. A little patting on each other’s back once in a while can’t hurt.

Lou, maybe we should form our own “self-congratulatory” award…referring to the Walkley Awards. Suggestions anyone?

 

[matahari]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Tracey,

parts of your post make no sense.... how can you as a free person with a good job on the outside feel feel that you have less rights and "things" then people that are in jail???

And the jails in Australia and in the modern world might be a little bit to good, but think I it`s just positive that jails offers some kind of choice in form of studying, courses etc. As for in indonesian jails, they really don`t have any choice to do anything positive with their time.

And let me tell you, to think that a person who repeadly comes back to prison is doing so because he enjoy the jailtime or not fearing jailtime is just ignorant... can`t you see that there might be some kind of pattern in some people that makes them do crimes, the jail is not the problem, the society is. and the fact that some people just have a difficuelt time obtaining the law is something we don`t get rid of with sentence them to lifelong imprissonment with horrible unhuman conditions.

 

[Tracey]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Matahari,

I have been inside to visit this family member & basically there was no dislike for being in there & infact amongst the prisoners they brag about what they get in jail, compared to what they have on the outside!
Jail should be a place that you don't want to be sent to, you dislike & try as hard as you can to not end up there, not something likened to a school holiday camp!

People should fear going to prison, not actually enjoy it there!

Yep there are patterns in some of these repeat offenders so make jail a worse place to be so they don't repeatedly offend & find out why they prefer to be there than out & work with them.... To sort through this... I know one girl has no family & so is a street kid, so her life is much better on the inside as she has a roof over her head, food, warmth & people to talk too. Outside she has nothing, so help her get a place to stay a job & support people that she can talk too, she does petty crime, but get's a ferw month as a repeat offender each time...

My experience with the family member is the more times she spends inside the ONLY things she learns is how to be a better crim!

Agree or not, no biggie to me..

 

[Sparky]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Hi all,
Well we certainly have a lively debate this time dont we. Everyone has their own view on the subject so obviousley we have a wide spectrum of viewpoints all valid, although i must say some i agree with and some i dont.
Drugs certainly arent going to go away and people are not going to stop using them thats one thing for sure. No sentences however severe are ever going to stop people from getting involved in the drug trade. Just to give everyone an idea how they have infultrated society a recent survey of kids (up to sixteen) was done and forty percent had tried drugs of some sort. :shock: :shock: :shock: Also the majority of people that are sent to prison for drugs end up re-offending again. Let me explain what happens to someone who is hooked on heroin. They statrted life like most other people , going out and socializing at the weekend, drinking and smoking dope. They eventually moved up to having the odd line of cocaine and before they knew it they had tried heroin and got addicted. Threy then found their habit increased and therefore so did the amount of meny they needed to feed their habit. Some statrt stealing to fund this as the withdrawal is so severe and horrible to through they will literally do anything to get their hands on the drug. Eventually at their wits end a lot of people go to the doctor for help to try and get out the trap they have found they are in. The lucky ones find that with the doctors help they are put on a program of drugs which stops them from going through withdrawal and means that if they really want to they can get some sort of normality back into their life and dont need to commit crime to obtain drugs. The majority are told there is a wating list of 3 months to a year to get on a drugs treatment course and are sent back onto the streets with no hope only to commit more crime and spiral into the abyss. Therfore the key word for how we treat the drugs proble is 'MANAGEMENT'.
Now dont get me wrong as i understand there are plent of people who have had plenty of chances and who just abuse the system, but as many as there are there are those that find themselves in a hopelesss situation. They need treated now and nort months down the line. Drug addiction is an illness and so should be treated as such. Meanwhile drug production in Afghanistan is increasing all the time. Instead of wasting all the millions of pounds on court cases for users perhaps it would be better spread investing in the armed forces being sent out to Afghanistan to destroy ALL the poppey fields that produce the miserable drug heroin. The last time the American governmant paid the Opium farmers in Afghanistan money to stop producing heroin and grow crops instead all the farmers treated the money as a bonus and just pocketed it and carried on producing heroin as no matter how many crops they grew they could not earn a tiny percentage of what they could growing poppies for heroin production.
Yes folks drugs are hear to stay i am afraid and all we can do is manage the problem and carry on trying to stop the problem at source.........AFGHANISTAN POPPY FIELDS. I know Saddam Hussein was an evil bastard but he could not spread as much misery as the Afghan hEROIN producers. Perhaps if the Americans had concentrated on staying in Afghanistan and destroying the poppy fields rather than chasing Saddam and his henchmen about Iraq (which is a waste of life and resources anyway) the problem would not be as bad as it is now with heroin production going through the roof. Hopefully Bush and Blair will get the point before society is ravaged by drugs. Never mind Iraq.....leave it to the Iraqis now and lets get back to Afghanistan and stop the problem at source. If there is no heroin to deal then there will be no dealers will there ? ........ or at least there will be very few. !!!! I will carry on dreaming though.!! :roll: :roll: :roll:


Regs Spark

 

[Roy]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Sparky, great post, but you might consider paragraphing a little next time, just to let us catch our breath!

The topic here isn’t the world wide drug problem, but the problem as it is growing in Bali. The Balinese have always used one or another form of local narcotic, be it bettlenut, brim, arak, tobacco, etc. These are cultural narcotics, indigenous to their culture, not introduced by outside influences and used by generations for centuries. They handle that just fine. Even opium, the scourge of China in the early 19th century, brought into China by the English, and almost devastating the Ching dynasty, seems to have not found its way into Bali.

Cannabis, as far as I know, is not an indigenous plant in Bali. I may be wrong about that, but cannabis is not a “cultural narcotic” in Bali. Heroin, and the “designer drugs” like shabu shabu, or ecstasy are relatively new to Bali, and their impact, even in this very short time has been devastating. ALL of those drugs have been introduced by outsiders.

Bali has been largely free of this scourge, surely much more than the rest of world. I for one, would like to keep it that way. I am not buying into Western ideas of how to deal with this larger, global drug issue problem. It’s early enough in the game of serious drugs in Bali to effectively deal with the problem, so long as there is a real commitment to do so. The death penalty to smugglers, as draconian or inhumane as it may seem, is totally necessary to keep this junk out of Bali.

For the Balinese, this is a question of survival. Can you imagine the destruction and devastation if these drugs found themselves readily available in the thousands of banjars all across Bali? It would literally kill the culture. Unabated, drugs could destroy Bali in less than 10 to 15 years.

I, for one, will do anything and everything I can to see that does not happen.

 

[Tracey]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Sparkyjust wish to comment as I have worked & dealt with this field & have relative in the situation & can speak from knowledge at least for Melb Drug addicts...
They are given the choice/opportunity, but trying to force a loved one that has a habit into rehab does not & will not work, they have to want to get off the drugs & until they willingly walk into a rehab centrew & ask for help, it is not possible to force someone to show up daily to their local Chemist or Dr's for their medication...

I can tell you that we have persobally tried everything to convince my sister including through her whole pregnancy to do something about it, if not for herself, or us for her unborn child, she spent most of her preg away from the family coz she was out of it 99% of the time!

Still now with a 3 yr old, she is only ever around when she wants or needs something....

Until they hit rock bottom, they DO NOT want to get off drugs, if you sat down & spoke to her, she would blatatantly tell yopu she enjoys the rush of the life she lives! The crime scene/drug scene is as addictive to her as the drugs, if it isn't heroin, it's pills, or anything she can get her hands on...
It's not as easy as giving them medication to get off drugs, if they enjoy the lifestyle so much...
The Govt gives them money, as they are on the dole or sole parent pension etc, the rest of the time they are thieves, or worse!

Thanks for listening & reading, our lives have been consumed by her drug addiction, illegal activities & death threats to us & our families due to her mistakes... I honestl;y believe if she was gone her child would have a future, we would have our lives back & my Parents would not get midnight phone calls that she is in Hosp, in jail or worse & wonder where is their 3 yr old grandaughter!

Drugs ruin lives & not just the users, but the whole family!

 

[radson]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Some interesting comments and for me some complete bullshit. For one anyones who thinks the INdonesian justice system is somehow worth defending. This same justice system involved in the non event Suharto trial. Human Rights investigation into East Timor. Tommy's luxury incarceration . The Canadian Manulife Bankruptcy. The Newmont Directors imprisonment. The Indonesian justice system in theory is based on antiquated Dutch law set up by the VOC. There are no precedents. The Constitiuon was whipped up in 2 weeks and no-one has ever got around to changing it.

Another comment about protecting the poor kiddies in Bali. Who controls the drug trade in bali. Your friendly neighbour hood polisi controls the extacy trade and of couse Aceh gold is from TNI. I have personally been taken on a tour of a TNI marijuana plantation when I was working in Aceh.

 

[radson]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Tracey,

With reagrds to prisons. Your rationale seems to be that we should lock up more people and make it harder. The U.S now has 25% of the worlds prison population. The war on drugs just meant that more people go to jail and drives prices higher. Compare with Netherlands, do people automatically become junkies because it is available. People are always going to make stupid decisons but historians in the 22nd century are going to be puzzled to our stance on drugs. Letting alcohol be legal and marijana illegal. A drug doesnt have a moral conscience. We nod our heads and give our kids Ritalin , our housewives prozac, our businessmen scotch and yet deny cancer patients marijana.

Roy how devastating has extasy been in Bali? Destroy bali in 10-15 years..What patronising crud.

 

[Tracey]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

I actuy heard from Balinese friends on the weekend that Aceh is where alot/majority of Marijuana in Indo is grown....

The comments made were maybe prices of Marijuana has gone up lately in Indo/Bali due to the Tsunami hitting Aceh & wiping out a large proportion of it, so the stash was brought in to sell where there is currently a drought @ a much steeper rate?...

I have 2 varying minds about the SC case... This was a side I had not actually considered & thought it was a valid argument!!!?

 

[Tracey]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Radson, I don't think jails work for drug addicts... anytime EVER!

I certainly don't think it should be like a 5star holiday resort...
The amount of repeat offenders in the jail that just simply do a month or 2 extra with each sentence in a cabin style environment is teaching these persons nothing at all...

Conditions in jail should not be so good, yep that I stand by esp Privately run prisons where corruption is rife!

There needs to be something else done for these people, jailing them, with like minded persons is of no value or no benefit for either of them...

Rehab may work if they themselves WANT to be rehabilitated as for the answer I really don't have it, but right now it's getting worse & worse & something needs to change & it needs to happen FAST!

 

[Lou]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Hmm, where to start against a pithy set of old canards. Some true of course and others bullshit or hearsay vv Tommy's luxury accommodation. I suppose Radson had a personal tour of his facilities too.

Indonesia is trying to establish a justice system that is fair and equitable; you would have to wonder about our near neighbours frequent stumbles in that regard - unless you are of the view that Lindy Chamberlain was tried by a process other than the Kangaroo court of public opinion. A court that some Australians are trying to import to Indonesia. People in glass houses etc. but let's move on to the best lulu of all...

A corrupt police force! But we only have one. How can the poor country compete with our neighbour's six or seven. The incomparable Rum Corps - sorry it's called the New South Wales Police Force these days isn't it. Yes Radson, we'd run out of scrolling space if we tried your style of list just for all of the recent corruption scandals in the Australian Police Forces. And that doesn't even start to get at the Government ones. As for the marijuana - would you like to take a shot at just how the Grass Castles of the Riverina manage to thrive despite the wonderfully incorrupt police force down there.

 

[radson]

RE: The Schapelle Corby Case...Anyone Else Following It?

Lou, apart from right wing blogs can u give some more info on how Mcgeoh's article was completely discredited. A quick google search shows it being used in numerous newspapers.

I know a reporter who has been to Tommy's cell and it has repeatedly been reported about his women callers and his little field trips to see Dad.

Indonesia has only 1 police force? Divided into how many poldas? and what about Brimob. Do you know how much it costs to go into the police academy and how this is usually paid off. Where did Indonesia place in Transparecy Internationals corruption index and which public instition in INdonesia was considered the most corrupt.

What the hell has lindy chamberlain got to do with anything?

 

[Lou]

What the hell has lindy chamberlain got to do with anything?

It's a rebuttal of your arrogant assumption that Indonesia's legal system is beneath contempt. At least it doesn't run on mass hysteria. Australia has it's share of problems too and I notice you made no further mention of the corruption or marijuana issues.

Show me one quaility newspaper that picked up McGeogh's story. The SMH is regularly referenced by the New York Times, Washington Post and Chicago Tribune among others. A story as explosive as that would have been world headlines if true, or even possible true. If you call Crikey a right wing blog that's fine with me but I'm sure Stephen Mayne will be surprised.

I'm relieved to hear you know a reporter who knows etc. That however, like much of your original post, is called hearsay.

 

[Lou]

I notice you made no further mention of the corruption or marijuana issues.

Apologies, in fact you did sling a little more mud. I missed it. We aren't debating whether the Indonesian police force is corruption free - I certainly didn't say that it is. Now you mention it however I'm astonished how several of the Australian Police Forces don't make the Transparency International list. Perhaps we should drop them a line and point out they've missed a star studded line up.

 

[Roy]

Radson writes:

Roy how devastating has extasy been in Bali? Destroy bali in 10-15 years..What patronising crud.

Radson, you are more than welcome to the discussion, but please keep in mind it is NOT an argument. Personally, I always look to where posters are posting from. It can tell a lot about the possible reasons for their point of view.

You are posting from Jakarta. That’s fine, but how much do you know about Bali, which is our concern, and how long have you been around Bali to see the very upsetting changes that are occurring here?

If you think my comment is “patronizing crud” fine…but do yourself a favor and get educated on the Balinese perspective. Get a copy of the recently released book, BALI, LIVING IN TWO WORLDS, edited by Urs Ramseyer. This book is a compilation of essays by a number of highly educated Balinese scholars. Pay particular note to Sugi B. Laus’ article, “Drug Abuse and Prostitution in Bali.” The answer to your question, “how devastating has extasy been in Bali” will be found in that essay.

I will quote from a recent interview of Sugi:

Nowadays, there is such an imbalance in the ways we, Balinese, perceive and treat outsiders: the tamu, (foreigners, guests, tourists) being very special and the anak jawa, (the Javanese or other Indonesians) being subject of our suspicion. I am afraid that this naïve attitude is a precursor of imminent disaster for the Balinese.

Again, your continued participation in this discussion is more than welcomed, but please, let’s keep it friendly.

 

[Lou]

Radson wrote re the Paul McGeogh SMH story

A quick google search shows it being used in numerous newspapers.

Grief I just did as you suggested. We are obviously living on different planets. Do you seriously call those things newspapers.

 

[radson]

Just me, Tranparency International, International Crisis Group, think the INdonesian Justice system is flawed. I think Tempo magazine Chief Editor Bambang Harymurti would also agree.

Then again the Suharta clan, Wiranto, Jakarta's Godfather Tomy Winata, Former Golkar head Akbar Tanjung would think the Indonesian justice system is the best that money can buy.

As for McGeogh story it was in The Seattle Times, Philadelphia Enquirer, Christan Science monitor, sourcewatch.com..please just google away

As for tommy, just one of roy's articles
http://www.laksamana.net/vnews.cfm?news_id=7355