House Prices in Indonesia

[jwa]

:I have recently joined the forum and am desperately looking for as built prices due to building a house for my wife in a Kampung in Pakisaji Malang and coming short. I should add that I am a seasoned expat, a carpenter by trade but now a chartered builder FCIOB with over 40 years experience in the building industry 12 of those in the Far East and another 15 in other parts of the world including 6 in Zimbabwe. I tried every which way to set up procedures including drawings and specifications and 3 members of my wife's family involved with the construction. Her Granddad (who claimed to be a projects manager in the construction industry all his life on building houses) supervising the work, her brother organising the labour and materials and her Father paying out the Money.The following is an Email I sent to my friend for his advice.I now ask for similar advice from all the members of this forum.( I recently invested £6,363 in Indonesia for land for a house and garden measuring approx 216 square metre. I bought a further 555 square metre close by for a separate walled garden for recreational purposes for to keep my pigeons, a few hens, a couple of geese, a goat, make a well in the centre, a potting shed and summer house, put it to lawn and grow herbs, roses and flowers with a stream all round - that sort of thing. This because the 216 square metres were only big enough for the house, a swimming pool, an aviary and a waterfall and fish pond.

First I sent Indonesian Rp 31mill (£1,700) for two plots of land but because Natalia's Mother was very ill with complications resulting from diabetes this was all used up in medical / hospital expenses and funeral fee's so I had to send it again. Next I sent another Rp 61mill (£3,346) for 3 parcels of land measuring a total of 216 square metres.One of the parcels has a two storey house on it but as it was badly constructed it has to come down.

Next I sent £10,000 and received Rp182,900,000 for it at exchange rate of approx Rp18230 to £1. This was to pay for the 555 [Rp 55,500,000(£3,044)] metres of land which we now have and the remainder was to build the house.

When I was there last year a taxi driver informed me he could get a house built for me for Rp 800,000 square metre no doubt about it. Later he said this was to Indonesian standard and said Gwelo standard would cost Rp1,000,000 Sq. Metre. Later he revised the figure to Rp1,200,000 per square metre - this I suspect after he had been talking to a local builder who had advised him to talk the price up because I am Gwelo.

I have designed a two storey house with an attic, nothing fancy, measuring 175 square metre and on the taxi drivers predictions should expect a building cost of Rp 175 mill to Rp 210mill. I tried to hire contractors to do the work for me but they wanted outrageous sums like Rp 550,000,000 etc. I pointed out to one of them that a contractor at Jog Jar would build you anything you liked at Rp1,500,000 per Sq. Meter and after that he reduced his price to Rp300,000,000 but when it was time to sign the contract he did not turn up. Instead he sent along to my room a claim for an extra on the price of Rp30mill for the kitchen fittings which he said he had not included for.

As this was on the very last day of my visit I asked my Grandfather in Law who says he was a project manager all of his life on housing and my Farther in Law who is a Church Minister and who has some experience of building (having built his own church) if they could organise it for me.They said they could so I left it to them.

One month later on and the situation is terrible. I have sacked the granddad after only two weeks as he did not set the house out to the dimensions shown on my drawings. He did not build half a metre away from the boundary resulting in the roof overhanging my nieghbours boundary. Fortunately I caught this and stopped the brickwork from going above the DPC. All the other rooms are too big resulting in 400mm being lost from the width of the hall and stairs. I have caught this also and instructed corrections.

They have disobeyed my instructions and not used ready mix concrete nor the bricks that I provided as a sample. They have built the septic tank first even though I told them to build it last and how it's in the garage where i did not want it. I will turn this in to a fresh water stand by tank but I'm not happy about that due to the close proximity it has to be to the septic tank.They have used hand made sun dried bricks which are pure shit in the brickwork below damp proof course instead of my factory pressed brick and these bricks are so poor even a rat could knorr it away if it were persistent enough.

Instead of ready mix concrete in the foundations I believe they have used the earth they dug out of the foundation and mixed it with cement to make the concrete. I have seen this done before in very low class area's and I think it's been done on my house as I cannot see any purchases for sand and gravel around the time of them putting in the foundations.

The worst bit of all is that Rp 65 mill has been spent on the house up to now and the ground floor slab is not yet complete. They let the builder construct a ground beam at ground floor level even though I do not show one on my drawings or describe it in my specification as it is not needed as there is a bloody big foundation only one metre down supporting the brickwork and columns. All of this has added to the delay and the expense.

Natalia's brother Andik has been organising the men and the materials and I am surprised to see that only Rp12,900,000 has been paid out in labour to the men. The rest has gone on materials and miscellaneous building equipment. This labour equals approx 20% of the amount spent so far so the ratio of labour /material would appear to be wrong as in the UK the ratio is something like 40% labour 60% material. I know the labour is very cheap in Indonesia still I would not expect the Labour/Material ratio to be all that different.

Andik does not appear to been shopping wisely as he paid Rp175,000 for 5 bags of cement and then Rp,6,950,000 for 200 bags. That's 10 ton of cement and when you order in bulk the price goes way down. Can be as much as 40% less. From the above he paid Rp35,000 per bag for the 5 bags and Rp34,750 a bag for the 200 bags. This does not make sense because that's a deduction of less than 1% and he should have been able to buy the 200 bags for Rp21,000 each giving a total cost for the 200 bags of Rp4,200,000 or something like that with a total saving of Rp2,750,000.

Something is not right and I'm trying to put my finger on it. In the mean time I have stopped the job and sacked Andic. His brother Andrea is acting night watchman for Rp 150,000 month.Until I decide what to do I have requested photos be taken on the lines of a plan I have Emailed to Andik. Also I am requesting to know the total sum expended up to now from the Rp182mill - there was Rp42mill left at the last count up to the 20th September but would you believe it although I instructed the job be stopped last Saturday afternoon it was not stopped until Tuesday this week because the workers would not accept Andiks or Natalia's Fathers word that we wanted the job stopped and wanted to hear it from Natalia. Seems to me like there was unfinished business that needed rectifying or covering up before they abandoned the site.

At present I am doing an analysis and reconciliation of the materials used in the work including materials left on site. The answers always came quickly before but now it's like trying to pull back teeth and the information is not readily forthcoming.

As you can well imagine I am mightily pissed off with the whole family as I considered they owed me for what I did for their Mother, although not looking for any thanks in that direction there was none that came either.

Now I feel very bitter about Indonesia as every time I try to infiltrate or blend with the community I bump the wagon in business matters as they as a race seem incapable of doing a straight deal and see the gwelo someone to be ripped off at every opportunity. I feel very apprehensive about going to live their as I would be living in a Kampung and even though Natalia was born and raised in the same Kampu ng it is no guarantee that I would be accepted by the residents who are mainly Muslim. The people are friendly enough to me and always give me big smiles when I visit but that may not be the case if I resided their.

I am very confused and cannot think straight because I am immersed in the problem which is affecting me emotionally.

Please advise,

Your good friend,

John




[/img][/i]

 

[Bert Vierstra]

John,

I am sorry that everything went as it went.

But you are not the only one, I have heard similar stories like this in Bali.

The lesson everyone can learn from your story, is that if you are involved in building a house etc, you have to be there yourself or use someone that has proven reliable for foreigners to do the job.

As for your relations to the family, actually the same as above applies, you have to take great care and see where your money goes with your own eyes, and realize that you cannot solve everything for them, allthough you have "more money".

This remark:

as a race seem incapable of doing a straight deal and see the gwelo someone to be ripped off at every opportunity

Will not be taken lightly overhere, and will make some probably pretty angry.

I understand, that after your dissappointments you feel like this, but Indonesia is not Europe or the USA. Things go differently here, and as a foreigner you have to be prepared to this kind of life, or learn and go on.

Take your losses, and do it differently next time...

I probably have not told you anything new, but you are in good hands here, and you are welcome to the forum...

-

 

[harimau]

Hello John,
I know exactly what you mean. I experienced some problems, the same as yours. The builders wanted a floor plan at the start but never seem to use it and changed the size of two rooms, which caused a problem on the room next door. My wife and I bought all our materials ourself, so we didn't have a problem with trusting other people to buy things. We kept all receipts and a log book for the workers to sign in daily. Our main problem was trying to get two of our builders to work. They were the two most laziest people I had ever met. When we got two more builders that worked lightning fast, it was very easy to see the difference and embarrassed the lazy ones into working faster.
You seem to be shelling out loads of cash and sorry to say this but it seems to me that you are being ripped off.

I agree with Bert,
The lesson everyone can learn from your story, is that if you are involved in building a house etc, you have to be there yourself or use someone that has proven reliable for foreigners to do the job.

Just being on site yourself can make people work faster and have respect for what they are doing. Because if word gets out they are bad builders, they will lose out in the end.

 

[jwa]

Hi Bert, Stu & Ayu,

Many thanks for your prompt reponse to my problem. Since I put it up I have found out that there was another Rp.35mill to be posted against the account by a builder they have been using and now all thats left from my Rp.182.9mill is Rp.6.9 mill.

From 40 years in the construction industry I expected this ending because in my career I have been instructed to go on to a 3 storey hospital extension and sack everyone from the project manager to the tea boy and clean up the dirty mess left by others.

When we went to visit after only two weeks on site we found all the excavation from the trenches had been heaped onto the site or the side of the road.

Bricks as per my sample had been stacked outside the church and the hand made bricks in the neighbours garden next to the church.

In addition they were using the neighbours garden for prefabricating steel for the unplanned ring beam. It transpired they were paying the neighbour and the church a fee in order to do so.

Gravel and sand was also deposited on the main road in to the village and the adjacent access road alongside the site. Traffic was reduced to single file because of it.

When I saw this I was absolutely livid and ordered that the job be stopped and the site and surrounds be cleaned up immediately.

I had already included in prices I had fixed for the excavation for loading to wagon but as this was not done at the time I paid for the loading twice.

In 40 years in the business it is the worst site I have come across. Every thing that could go wrong has gone wrong. I sit here heart broken and in the depths of dispair.

I thought after 6 years in Africa I had nothing to learn. Indonesia has shown me that I knew nothing. This is the third time I have been bitten in Indonesia and I do not wish to be bitten again. Now I have to pick up the
pieces and look for another interest in life.

When something like this happens it's like seeing the tip of an iceburg it takes time for all the facts to become known. Slowly, slowly, they come to light and you find all your worst suspicions confirmed.

The deceit by my own family is what hurts the most. I payed the wifes Granddad Rp2mill per month and her Father and Brother Rp.1mill each per month and I feel really badly let down by them. They had samples of the materials that were to be used at the church plus a full typewritten specification in Indonesian. I have seen them reading it many times and comparing notes yet it, and my samples, were completely ignored.

It seems like Indonesians have no balls, spunk or spine and whoever has the most pull in the clan heirachy wins the day. Things still appear to run on tribal lines even though we Europeans may not be aware of this and what the local chief says goes. Woman certainly seem to be second class citizens and my wife dare not stand up to her family.

As a result of all this I have instructed my wife to put the land up for sale in order to cut my losses. Whether or not this will ever happen the Lord only knows.

I'ts not the money, it's the beutiful dream we both had of going there and spending the rest of our lives in the warmth of the family and the friends to be made in the village. Now thats all shattered.

To build our house now would cost us at least Rp500mill before we could move in then theres the cost of buying furniture and a new car. At my time of life (58years) I am not prepared to risk this sort of investment on something that could go sour.

If I offend any Indonesians out there then I'm sorry but I am speaking as I find it and if Indonesia is ever going to pull it's self out of the fertilizer ( because no one will do it for you) then you had better start making tracks to come into the 21st Century instead of languishing behind with your dragons and your masks and your antiquated ways of doing things.

Instead of shunning the Foreigner as you do you should embrace him and make it easy for to come and settle in your country. We allow entry and residence to the UK and other European countries Australia and North America without any great hassle so why can you not return the privilege?

This is one very sad and well travelled Brit who thought he knew all the rip offs only to find himself ripped off again.

Good Wishes to all you who were clever enough to make it.

John

 

[Jimbo]

John

Do not blame all of Indonesia or Indonesians for your misfortune. Your distress is understandable but you can bounce back. Can I ask you how much of the language you speak and how much time you have spent here. I would also ask you to remember it is their country not yours.

I must also correct you on the ease for a foreigner to enter the UK by legal means. It is very difficult to the point that if you have a foreign wife there is no automatic entry garanteed.

As a fellow FCIOB I understand your frustration but you are dealing with a whole different set of rules and regulations, standards. My heart goes out to you for the fact that your own family seems to have let you down and that must hurt but believe me its not the whole of Indonesia.

Good Luck.

 

[jwa]

:? Hi Jimbo,

Many thanks for your responce.

I do not speak the language but my wife speaks English and translates for me when necessery. I have now visited Indonesia 6 times and resided there a total of 4 Months.

As I say I find the people friendly with smiling faces all round irrespective of religion.

My bad experiences consist of (1) having our suitcases gone through last Ramadan when I lost my swiss army knife. I also lost a pair of white dress shoe's which I will never be able to replace. At the same time my wife had 3 brand new trousers she had never worn removed from her suit case. (2) Next we sent our almost new home gymnasium to Indonesia from Thailand - it cost almost £500 to send it. What happened? Although these were used personal effects the customs made it so difficult we never received them. Net result a loss of £2,000 (3) This latest experience I have posted on this forum. As you can well imagine by now I'm feeling very sore.

I even wrote to the President and the Chief of Customs at Surabaya about the Gynnasium equipment and received a telephone call from the presidents office saying they were very sorry for what had happened to me and were looking into it but I heard no more. I never did hear from the Customs Controller in Surabaya. Someone somewhere is obviously enjoying the gym equipment Free of Charge.

Whilst Indonesians are seen in there thousands all around the world (Just go to Victoria Park on a Sunday in Hong Kong) how many orang asing or Eropath do you see in Indonesia.

In Malang when I go in to a supermarket I am stared at by the shop assistants as though I were from another planet. It's the same on the outside. It's most disconcerting to be the only Euro on the street.

These issues's need to be addressed and the country opened up to the outside world. My own theory is that the Muslim commuity, who are in the majority, abhor change and don't want the bula who they see will change their value's and there way of life from entering the country. Hence the closed shop. Well it's their country so if thats what they want then they can have it.

I'ts just such a shame to see the youth of the country playing plastic guitars or rattling washers together at traffic lights to literally earn a crust of bread or a bowl of rice (if thats what harrassing moterists can be called).

I saw a child of no more than 8 sitting wedged up against a bollard in the middle of a very busy intersection at 9.30 pm traffic fumes and noise from exhausts and engines all around him just a few weeks ago.

What price isolation from the big bad world? This child should have been tucked up in bed somewhere and where are the authorities to allow such incidences as this?

I am not here to put the world right but as the saying goes the longest journey begins with a single step and who knows how far the ripples from this little stone that I am dropping in to the water may go.

I will end by telling you this. I have the best little wife that any man could ever hope for. She is perfect in every way. I love her to bits and will do anything for her and guess what? She's Indonesian!

Best Regards,

John

 

[Petenjo]

I'm in a somewhat different but in a way similar process at the moment, but trying to do it all while living out of country. Right from the outset I realised it would be a long process but knew that rushing into the whole 'house in Bali' dream could be a costlier experience.

It took 5 trips over 8 months to find the right block of land and negotiate a price. I also had to sort nominees and get legal coverage in place. Now I'm in the process of sorting through architects/builders. Again, a lengthy process - finding the time to get back down to Bali, discuss designs, view finished projects and talk to previous clients, prior to making any decision.

I agree whole heartedly with Bert that having a project manager is essential - I think I'll be able to find my own architects/builders but if there are any recommendations I am willing to meet and view etc. Also, I havent identified a reputable project manager at this stage - recommendations gladly accepted!

There have been a couple of threads on these forums and I get the impression some people are trying to do it too much on the cheap and in too much of a hurry. I cant afford to be onsite during construction phase - which is probably the ideal way, hence taking the extra time, and hopefully Xmas in the new villa in 2006!

 

[Jimbo]

JWA

Looks like you have had some bad experiences my friend. I will ask you however to try and be a bit more objective. The Uk abounds with people who rip off foreigners. I see people here begging in the streets and youths running wild every night. That is not representitive of the UK as a whole and you should think about this in your statements.

I have spent over 10 years in Indonesia and have been married to my Indonesian wife for coming up to 23 years. Yes there have been ups and downs but overall it has lead me to love the country and its people.

It really helps if you speak the language and understand the people but time will take care of that. Try and put it all behind you and start again. Good luck.

 

[jwa]

:roll: Hi Petenjo.

Be warned by my experience.

My Project manager was my step GrandFarther who says he constructed every sort of house that had ever been constructed in Indonesia during his whole working life time. He never built anything else only houses. I brought him out of retirement and paid him Rp2,000,0000 per month to simply to supervise the construction of my new home. My Father in Laws church and house was just across the road so he could rest up sleep and eat anytime he wished. From the outset his supervision was P. P. to say the least.

If I can get caught out anyone can as I'm a time served carpenter and joiner who was a chargehand then Foreman then General Foreman then Contracts Supervisor then Contracts Manager then general manager and director for another large company before going off and starting my own company in which I eventually employed 500 people. All in the construction industry. Now with 40 years experience behind me 25 years of that being international experience I thought I could not be caught big time again.

What ever you do, do not sign contracts with the locals or even enter into verbal contracts as otherwise you will come short.

What would you do in case of breach. Your contractor would immediately abandon the site and take you to court. No other contractor would go on your site once he knew you were in dispute.

Justice in these countries is non existant and is dependant on who knows who and how much is being paid to who. Needless to say you would not be part of this equation. You would get shafted for sure. If you wanted your project to progress then you would have to meet the demands of your present contractor who you are in dispute with and his demands would blow your mind.

For the same reason do not let a contractor design your house and obtain the planning permission for it. Once he does that the drawings are his copyright and no one else can use them without paying a big royalty.

You cannot go back again for planning permission on a new set of plans as you already have planning permission and they would refuse you.
Therefore, you are forced to accept your contractors estimate no matter how high it is or abandone the project.

They are all peeing in the same pot together just waiting for bule like you and I to come along so they can carve us up.

I am Quantity Surveyor trained and have made contracts all day long for a living ( one over one billion Hong Kong $) and know the business inside out. For the past 10 years I have been a contractual claims QS. Believe you me you have no idea how high a contractor can make a claim against you.

If you did not pay up he would request the court to confiscate your land and sell it to pay the court settlement. Guess who would be in there with the rest of the cartel bidding for it on the cheap.

Be warned. Do nothing unless you can do it yourself. Find the time .Take a sabatical and go there and build your house your self.

I am coming to terms with my loss as I consider I have got off cheap. Total spent on construction on my house up to now is 108mill which equates to approx. £6,000. If I consider the rip off to be 50% then I have lost £3,000 which I can stand.

If this had not happened I would have have provided the funds, on trust, to put the various members of my wife's family into business. Now I would not trust them with a packet of sweets so the lesson has been cheap. Incidentially labour for one month came to Rp30mill!! Good job I caught it in time.

Sorry if my comments upset Indonesians reading this. No offense is intended but as long as we have free speach I will say it as I find it.

Best Of Luck.

John in Malaysia

 

[jwa]

Hi Jimbo,

Many thanks for your comments which I whole heartly take on board.

Many thanks for your good wishes also. I trust that one day members of this forum may all get together to have a beer and a chin wag. It would be interesting to see the photo's of everyones enterprise.

Big shame about the latest bombings - where do we all go from here?

I feel really sorry for those who depend on the tourist trade. Many of them will be ruined as a result of this.

I was dancing in the Sari night club only a few months before the first bombings and lost a young single friend of mine, an electrical engineer,
Steven Spiers, who was there for the Rugby. Worked with him in Hong Kong.

Things can only get worse. Northern Ireland is a pointer to this but unlike Nothern Ireland there is no single party to sit down with and negotiate.

Look out for more bombings, especially in Christian churches in Indonesia.

Best Regards,

Natalia & John

 

[mariathe]

I have been married to a (Chinese) Indinesian for nearly 30 years. First time I went to Jakarta was 21 years ago. It was supposed to be permanent, but I lasted only 5 months. Finding out I was pregnant with our 3rd child only two weeks after arriving didn't help. Not to go into too much detail, but I was close to a nervous breakdown by the time we came back to the UK. My in-laws were a big part of the problem. But I certainly know what you mean about being stared at in the street. I felt like I had grown a second head. And they weren't shy about it, some even stopped in their tracks open mouthed! Anyway, that experience made me hate the place, and I swore never to set foot on Indonesian soil again. But that was over 20 years ago, and I have mellowed and forgiven. Life is too short to hold grudges. Time heals as they say. Last year was the first time back there, and I saw the place with different eyes, I actually enjoyed it. Nothing surprises me anymore, so the culture shock was much less. Yes, Jakarta is still a dump, but more used to seeing westerners now so no more staring. We went back again this year, taking our 3 sons for the first time. We also spent 2 weeks in Bali, and I loved the place (once you get away from Kuta). My husband wants to go home, but I won't live in Jakarta, so the best compromise seemed to be Bali. But this second lot of bombings has made us think again. If we go ahead, we plan to buy land freehold and build. With all your experience in the building trade, couldn't you turn this disaster to your advantage? Work for foreigners as a site manager or something like that? You now know some of the likely pitfalls. From what I have read on the forum, people are always looking for trustworthy site managers. Maybe your wife could deal with the suppliers etc. as she speaks Bahasa. Or maybe this posting will show my total naivity in the ways of Bali!

 

[jwa]

Hi Mariathe (E. F. Bewbie)

Being trade and quantity surveyor trained as well as being a contractual claims QS and chartered builder (FCIOB) has helped me immensely with this problem.

The photo's I had requested have arrived and they have built the house up to 26 bricks above floor level thats approx 2.5 metres. On the size of bricks they use there I have been able to ascertain from sizes of openings that I gave them to build that there is 117 bricks to one square metre built in position for a 225mm thick wall. Also that one Square metre of brickwork is 13 bricks high and 4.5 bricks wide. This may help you and others in the future.

The builder has taken me for well over 50% and I am in the course of proving this by analytical analysis of the materials purchased, those used in the work and those left on site. I am doing the same with the number of men employed on the site multiplied by their daily rate

I had given the builder a piece work target of Rp250,000 per 1,000 bricks laid and had measured over door and window openings also columns when checking that paid to him.

He has refused to give the number of men employed on site and has justified his charge by saying he estimated to build the house in 5 months and had 5 months work on site. However, he estimates he has completed 30 % of the work in one month and therefore has done a pro-rata on his expected wages for 5 months divided this by 100 and multiplied by 30 to arrive at his charge for his labour.

Did you ever hear such bullshit!!? He and his men were on piece work.
Rp1 mill for removing the topsoil and loading to wagon, Rp500,000 for digging the septic tank and load, another Rp2mill for excavating the foundations and load to wagon and Rp250,000 per 1,000 for laying the bricks.etc.etc.

He had no contract and is in a fix because the workmanship is terrible with walls and columns not being constructed on their underlaying foundations. I had to get him to construct the equivelant of a raft foundation over all so that the walls could be built to the designed room sizes on top of the raft.

If he now claims he was employed as an experienced contractor to carry out the whole of the work and not a casual worker then I will have him in court because of all the cock-ups on the site.

Anyway the good news is that my wife and I have our dream back and are going back there in the next two weeks to finish our house. When we get it finished we will invite all members of this forum to come and see us and have a big party.

I am prepared to give the benefit of my advice freely to anyone who wants it . If they wish me to travel to their site and make inspections then they will have to pay my travel and overnight expences. I could supervise the whole of the construction for them but this would constitute work and my visa does not presently cover this . I do have a UK Consultancy Company which is dormant right now but it could be re-activated if the need arose.

Thanks once again for your reponse to my thread.

Incidently concerning the staring problem, I now just imagine that I'm a film star so the staring does not bother me anymore as I just pretend to myself that they have a reason to stare!!

Best Regards,

Natalia & John

 

[Roy]

This has been an amazing string for me to finally absorb. I’ve tried several times before, but so much technical information and mind boggling arithmetic and algebra made my eyes roll and the lids finally shut down!

In my seven years of living on Bali, I’ve only been involved in three building projects. The first was our modest three bedroom home in Bunutan where we currently live. The second was our recently opened gallery, and the third, which has been an ongoing project for over two years now, is our second house, needed as our family expanded beyond expectations.

All three projects were and are under the control of my brother in law, I Wayan Tagel of Kedewatan who is both a licensed architect and builder. He has many important projects under his belt, including all the structures at Nigel’s Elephant Park and the reception area of the Amandari Resort. He is also a member of the Gianyar DPR, and holds the position of licensing building projects in Gianyar Regency.

Beyond the total restoration of two 18th century houses in Connecticut many years ago, I freely admit to not having a clue about modern construction. So, in that regard, I did place myself totally at the mercy of my brother in law, the husband of my wife’s older sister.

Since our three story “monster” house is just a short stroll behind our current house, we can supervise the project every day with ease. My brother in law Tagel is at our house at least twice a week to discuss options. In the beginning, these options seemed almost meaningless to me…like, should we use one half inch rebar in the concrete posts, or double up with quarter inch rebar? Personally, I only like to get involved with the decisions that will reflect the quality of the space, the aesthetics, as in which wood for this, what style carving here, or what antique doors do you want there?

Having recently visited with Bert in Lovina, he showed me the incredible villa project he is involved with there. It’s a funny thing about a well built house. That is, even when you don’t know how to do it, or what went into it, you can recognize it quickly. The villas that Bert and his associates are building along a 2 km stretch of fine beach in Lovina are breathtaking in every sense of the word.

The finest villa in Bali that I have ever seen, and spent quite a lot of time in, is the one illustrated on the cover of BALI STYLE. It was built about 23 years ago by a friend of mine, who must remain anonymous. Funny thing is, the family name ascribed to that house in the book is…well, call it a “pen name.” Some retired US government types are like that…still secretive decades later. Literally perched on a cliff on the Ayung River gorge, very close to my house, this masterpiece is a marvel of engineering and architecture.

I personally know many, many expats here on Bali who have completed very successful building projects, be it their homes, warehouses, offices or whatever. I’ve never heard stories of fraud, family rip-offs, the use of substandard materials near the level I’ve read here. Some complaints, problems, setbacks, and even rip offs are normal in any building project anywhere on earth.

And yes, as Bert predicted earlier, I do take very personal exception to Indonesians, Balinese or otherwise, being classified, “as a race seem incapable of doing a straight deal and see the gwelo someone to be ripped off at every opportunity.” Generally, when I hear something like that I can only think of kharma. You’ll get no sympathy from me, nor most any other long term expat who has learned how to live here.

John, I am in no way calling you a liar, but there are always two sides to every coin. In any event, as previous posters have tried to encourage you, I would surely be in their Bemo. Good luck as you work things out.

 

[Irislahay]

Hi JWA,

I just wanna say one thing to you, every place have people bad and good. You have been put your feet in the wrong place. Now, all of the people here in this forum help you with their advice. You can't take it back your past. Just do the good step for the next time... We understand about your deceptions, so you don't have to repeat it. We feel sorry about that. But like Jimbo say, please don't blame all of the Indonesian people. I believe that you'll get the best for your next project.

Indonesia is not Europe or the USA

I can't speak about Europe or even USA, if I am not wrong, France is Europe also right? :lol: Just try over there. I am not sure that all of them are kindly person.....

 

[Sanurian]

John...you're being ripped-off. And that's not unusual here, England, or wherever.

I'm sorry I don't have a fast internet connection because you write very big posts. Be assured you're not the only one. I'm amazed that Pak Roy has never heard stories of fraud, family rip-offs, the use of substandard materials near the level I’ve read here. I guess some people are luckier than others.

No point in pointing fingers of blame in this country. Bugger-all will result in the end. Except that you lose. Take on board what you've learnt as a result and try not to repeat the mistakes.

 

[Jean Pascal Comte]

Iris wrote :

I can't speak about Europe or even USA, if I am not wrong, France is Europe also right? :lol: Just try over there. I am not sure that all of them are kindly person.....

I was trying to remain silent and discreet, but I knew that, once more, all this would end up with the Froggies getting a kick on their back side :roll: But I know Iris don't really mean what she said because her daughter is half French...

John wrote :

We allow entry and residence to the UK and other European countries Australia and North America without any great hassle so why can you not return the privilege?

John, are you serious about that ? Do you really think that Indonesians are welcome to come to work in Europe and the USA and that it is easy for them to get a visa ?
However, I am glad to see that the thing are finally getting better for you.

Iris, bagaimana kabarnya ? Kami sekalian masih harap nanti kami akan dapat melihat foto fotonya bayimu dan Olivier. Dan kami belum tahu siapa namanya ! :lol:

Jean-Pascal