Jack sent me an advance copy of this article that should be of great interest:
http://www.balidiscovery.com/messages/message.asp?Id=4913
http://www.balidiscovery.com/messages/message.asp?Id=4913
Clearing the air on foreign “ownership” of Bali property
- Thread starter Roy
- Start date
Yes Bert, I read it. I thought it was excellent. Personally I would still use a lawyer to execute any land related contract, as I am still of the understanding that a notaris cannot argue a case in court. You’ll note what she says… “As such, a Notaris/PPAT spends a good deal of his/her time dealing with land matters.” She didn’t say that includes in court arguing land related disputes.
I also think that folks who have bought property here in Bali (through a PMA) could be enjoying a false sense of security: “The legal options remain largely unchanged except that the route of ownership of a single residential property investment via a foreign-investment or PMA company may no longer be available…” Unclear is whether or not already existing PMA used deals are “grandfathered” and thus OK or not.
The tax issue is a real eye opener:
“The sale of a new unit for the first time, and incidentally this applies to all new properties not just apartments, may be subject to both 10% PPN (VAT) and 20% PPnBM (Luxury tax), depending on the size of the property and/or the total cost. The potential liability for such taxes obviously makes a material difference to the total purchase price, meaning that this aspect needs careful examination and documentation.”
A 30% total tax on a $300,000 property is a whole lot of money! The question is, what size and what value kicks in the luxury tax?
What did you think Bert?
BaliLife...good grief man! Tell us how you REALLY feel! :lol:
Seriously though, Jack is a long time personal friend, and he enjoys a long standing and well deserved reputation in Bali...which is something you are only beginning to develop for yourself. Jack has no bones to pick with real estate developers. His business is not real estate or land development, so he has nothing to gain personally by drawing attention to this important topic.
Trust me, he hasn’t gotten me on any collar, and we sometimes disagree on issues…although I admit that I am more than likely to agree with him, since we share very similar views on numerous topics. You might also want to consider putting a lid on public name calling. It doesn’t become you, and it does nothing to advance your own viewpoint.
I also think that folks who have bought property here in Bali (through a PMA) could be enjoying a false sense of security: “The legal options remain largely unchanged except that the route of ownership of a single residential property investment via a foreign-investment or PMA company may no longer be available…” Unclear is whether or not already existing PMA used deals are “grandfathered” and thus OK or not.
The tax issue is a real eye opener:
“The sale of a new unit for the first time, and incidentally this applies to all new properties not just apartments, may be subject to both 10% PPN (VAT) and 20% PPnBM (Luxury tax), depending on the size of the property and/or the total cost. The potential liability for such taxes obviously makes a material difference to the total purchase price, meaning that this aspect needs careful examination and documentation.”
A 30% total tax on a $300,000 property is a whole lot of money! The question is, what size and what value kicks in the luxury tax?
What did you think Bert?
BaliLife...good grief man! Tell us how you REALLY feel! :lol:
Seriously though, Jack is a long time personal friend, and he enjoys a long standing and well deserved reputation in Bali...which is something you are only beginning to develop for yourself. Jack has no bones to pick with real estate developers. His business is not real estate or land development, so he has nothing to gain personally by drawing attention to this important topic.
Trust me, he hasn’t gotten me on any collar, and we sometimes disagree on issues…although I admit that I am more than likely to agree with him, since we share very similar views on numerous topics. You might also want to consider putting a lid on public name calling. It doesn’t become you, and it does nothing to advance your own viewpoint.
Roy said:
I don't understand much of the article, or where its actually about.
I have no idea about what the above says what. Do you?
And what says the above? 99 year leases are ok? AFAIK lease can only be 25 years, and you are not allowed to already agree on extending the lease in the 25 year lease contract, since it would be circumventing the lawful lease period of 25 years.
Very confusing. The article is just adding to the already existent smoke screens, which allow "multiple interpretations" and "business as usual".
Just as this article:
http://www.balidiscovery.com/messages/message.asp?Id=4925
This will change nothing. It just means some money taking a different route. maybe.
It seems as nobody can take a clear standpoint, and nobody dares to look at the reality.
Business as usual. And all in all, bad for Bali.
Ok, I was blowing a little steam there - but I stand by my point on such matters JD is very one sided. I receive his newsletter, and its always the same-ol same-ol.
Now, I don't own property through a nominee, but everyone knows this is exactly how foreigners have been buying property in bali for some time - and there's been nothing to suggest that it won't be upheld, as it has been to date.
Thailand, same nonsense, different flavour. There you have to do it through a company that you can't be more than a 49% shareholder of - and all your other local shareholders have already handed their letters of resignation to your lawyer, so if any of them play up, they're out - and they get a fee for their name being listed as a shareholder.
Ct
Now, I don't own property through a nominee, but everyone knows this is exactly how foreigners have been buying property in bali for some time - and there's been nothing to suggest that it won't be upheld, as it has been to date.
Thailand, same nonsense, different flavour. There you have to do it through a company that you can't be more than a 49% shareholder of - and all your other local shareholders have already handed their letters of resignation to your lawyer, so if any of them play up, they're out - and they get a fee for their name being listed as a shareholder.
Ct
I totally agree with that! On another string we kicked around this topic…the acknowledged necessity of Indonesia’s property laws to be re-drafted, made clearer, and uniformly regulated. If Indonesia is serious about battling corruption, than this should be high on the agenda list.
For you and me, the point is moot, (excepting your business concerns of course) as we both have Balinese wives and offspring…(yours still in the oven for a while more :wink: ).
To all forum members and observers, particularly to Jack and Rainy, it has been conveyed to me through an individual I trust that my first post on this string has resulted in both Jack Daniels and Rainy Hendriany taking my words as a literal attack on their character. I know that both of these individuals are respected in their fields for upholding the highest ethical standards, and though my comments were made tongue in cheek, such is no excuse and I apologise sincerely for any offence taken.
The terms I used were terms that we use commonly in Australia, again in a toungue in cheek manner, and I actually wasn't aware of how some of those terms were interpreted by others - again for this I apologize.
My post was intended to illustrate that many ambiguities exist in relation to foreign ownership of land in indonesia - and was not intended to directly or indirectly imply that either Mr. Daniels or Ms. Hendriany have anything to gain or any unethical reason for publishing their opinions in the matter.
Again, my apologies to Mr. Daniels and Ms.Hendriany.
Sincerely,
Ct
The terms I used were terms that we use commonly in Australia, again in a toungue in cheek manner, and I actually wasn't aware of how some of those terms were interpreted by others - again for this I apologize.
My post was intended to illustrate that many ambiguities exist in relation to foreign ownership of land in indonesia - and was not intended to directly or indirectly imply that either Mr. Daniels or Ms. Hendriany have anything to gain or any unethical reason for publishing their opinions in the matter.
Again, my apologies to Mr. Daniels and Ms.Hendriany.
Sincerely,
Ct
One of the things I like about Balilife is that he IS willing to admit he is wrong at times and apologise.
I have no idea if anyone did threaten to sue or not.... but I have seen Balilife apologise and admit he is wrong before, no threats over him. 8)
Have seen it Chilli but when it was first out in the cinemas and I cant remember that scene.....
Well, that's certainly cleared the air for property ownership in Bali for me - can't think of a thing left out here :lol: Hubris, jealousy, pride, etc.
The only tiny thing missing (just a nigglingly small thing) is any "clearing of the air" on Balinese property ownership issues.
Thanks gang, invaluable entertainment, pity about the information... :lol:
The only tiny thing missing (just a nigglingly small thing) is any "clearing of the air" on Balinese property ownership issues.
Thanks gang, invaluable entertainment, pity about the information... :lol: