Bali marriage...

[gilbert de jong]

Hello y'all,

I have a question about marriage between a Bali girl(hindu) and western guy...why is it that I'm always being told that the westerner has to 'convert' to Hindu-religion before marriage? In my eyes it's a bit strange to change or (if atheist) take up an religion just for the sake of marrying the one you love.
And does it also works vice-versa, if the guy is from Bali en the girl not, does the girl have to 'convert' ? If so..that would mean that mixed-religion marriages dont exist?
I know it has something to do with 'changing' from family-temple, to her own temple with the man she marries, or something like that, but why convert to something if you're not a believer? Could just build a temple for her alone if she wishes one?
So I am wondering if mixed-religion marriages exist?
Thanks for any input,
Friendly greetings............Gilbert.

 

[KaBIm]

The foundation of Indonesia as a nation reposes on top of five principles named Pancasila and this philosophy is part of the preamble of the Indonesian Constitution. One of this principle is the belief in the one and only God (Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa). Therefore you can not be atheist in Indonesia and administratively you must have a religion (just look at the KTP of any of your indonesian friends and you will see that it states a religion).
The indonesian marriage law of 1974 stipulates that a couple must marry in accordance with his faith and religion, therefore excluding interfaith marriage.
To answer your question, legally there is no mixed religion marriages. However since many conversion are just done to comply with the law, in the facts, there is interfaith marriage.

 

[gilbert de jong]

Aha,
yeah I remember the first time I applied for a KITAS, at the kantor imigrasi on some form I had to choose a religion. Can only remember Catholic,Protestant,Hindu and Moslim, the fifth slipped my mind. Don't remember what I've choosen then, think it was Catholic because my mom was raised that way(long,long time ago).
So if I understand correctly, if I change that choice into Hindu religion, I would be considered Hindu?
Me personally, I have respect for all religions, or the people who choose to believe in something/someone, without being fanatical/hardcore. Now wouldn't it be somewhat frowned upon(Desa or family of the girl) me being Hindu, without really knowing anything about it? Or for that mather, any westerner who 'convert' just for marriage?

Thanks so far(and again) for your insight Kabim,
Friendly greetings.........Gilbert.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

So if I understand correctly, if I change that choice into Hindu religion, I would be considered Hindu?

That would be too easy

You have to "undergo" all the necessary Hindu rites, which would include a name giving a.o.

 

[charlie]

i actually thought that the woman had to follow the man, so in your case gilbert your fiance should be converting to your religion?

unless your fiance is the only child, and then i would understand ...

and it's not quite as simple as just building her own temple :?

 

[gilbert de jong]

Hi Bert,
I understand you've experience in undergoing in such ceremonies(wedding/toothfiling/namegiving etcetc..), I am still wondering why one has to 'convert'(not for Legal-reasons), but undergo those ceremonies, if one really doesnt believe in all those ceremonies. Is it more like an tradition to do so? To like...satisfy the parents of the bride to be? And by 'undergoing' the ceremonies, I would still have no clue, what it is all meaning.
I do have an interest in the religion itself, but not in a way that I think it helps to make offerings to gods.

Hi Charlie,
No fiance yet, hahaha, just want to be prepared if the issue of marriage comes up.
I am still trying to find a girl for a serious relation, who not just loves money, but me for who I am-not for what I have. Or at least a girl who can hide the fact she loves money very very good, hihihi.
So as far as you know, she would have to convert to my religion, as in follow the religion of the man she marries. That would mean no temple at all or salib or praying towards mekka.

Thanks to you both for your input so far, hope to learn more about it.
friendly greetings.......Gilbert.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Gilbert,

You live in Bali, you do it the Bali way. For her and her family, if not for yourself. And thus for yourself.

No question about it.

You don't have temple, I advise to join in with hers, that's what I did.

 

[KaBIm]

So as far as you know, she would have to convert to my religion, as in follow the religion of the man she marries. That would mean no temple at all or salib or praying towards mekka.

It is a misconception here. Nothing in the Indonesian law force the girl to follow the boy's religion. It's up to them. To marry, they must be of the same religion. Point. Be it the one of the girl or the one of the boy, terserah.

 

[charlie]

i stand corrected.... thanks Kabim ...

 

[gilbert de jong]

Hi Y'all,
What I meant by changing the choice given at the kantor imigrasi, that would make me a 'legal' hindu and therefor allowed to marry a hindu-lady. I realise, to the inlaws that's just being hindu on paper, same as I am now probably Catholic on paper...it doesnt mean anything. To become a 'real' hindu one has to undergo certain ceremonies, out of respect for the family and to her, is what I understand from Bert. And it would be better for me too. As in how, would it be better for me?Could you elaberate a little more?
Like I said, I have respect for the hindu believers, and exactly out of that respect I find it strange to pretend I want to become a Hindu.
About living on Bali, and therefor have to do it the Bali way, I agree..some things yes, other things absolutely not. Yes, to for example, tiga bulanan potong babi. Absolutely not, to for example, offering a little puppy-dog for a new house ceremonie(read that somewhere on the forum). As we're talking about marriage here, I believe I should know the ins-outs of the reason and consequences to converting.
By the way Bert, you joined her family-temple?
Thanks again, for the info provided, and in forehand thanks for any info coming...
friendly greetings, Gilbert.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

How one can live one in Bali, in a village, be married to a Hindu Balinese woman, and not be Hindu?

Unless you want to be isolated, its not possible, IMHO.

Don't you want to join your wife and family to ceremonies?

I would be better for you because you can join in a bit more with social life, people will know you, and respect you because you will show respect.

The Hindu religion is weaved in with daily life, how can you stay apart?

That's your reason.

Yes I joined in "Dewi's" family temple.

One can has many objections to certain customs, even the killing of pigs, because its not really "animal-friendly", ever seen it? Yes the puppy killing is horrible, and also the dog killing for sate. (See somewhere else on the forum must be a movie I shot, of dogs waiting for the kill)

But its "their" culture. If you stay apart, you will be apart. Whitey's like us will never really be a part of it, but I think its better to get as close as is possible, and swallow some of the "cultural objections" you may have.....

 

[KaBIm]

What I meant by changing the choice given at the kantor imigrasi, that would make me a 'legal' hindu and therefor allowed to marry a hindu-lady.

I do not leave in Bali nor I am familiar with hindu religion, however I would like to warn you on one point. It may be not a matter of being a hindu on paper... but to prove it on paper also. When I was a kid, I was given a catholic education back home and went through various rites which were all recorded on papers (surat baptis...etc). When I married in Indonesia some years ago, I became a protestant... However, to be able to become a protestant and to marry in this religion, I had to show proofs of my earlier christian education, with all the documents I had about my previous religious education, to the pendeta and to the CaPil in my hometown here! My "conversion" was then very easy, since I just had to do a speech in a ceremony held at the church two weeks prior to my wedding.
Just wondering if you would not be requested to show some proof of a "real" (at least administrative) religious education or conversion to hinduism rather than just showing a KITAS with "hindu" on it to be legally authorised to marry. My knowledge of hindu religion is however very limited, and I think that Bert's answer on the question would be more accurate than mine.

 

[KaBIm]

About living on Bali, and therefor have to do it the Bali way, I agree..some things yes, other things absolutely not. Yes, to for example, tiga bulanan potong babi. Absolutely not, to for example, offering a little puppy-dog for a new house ceremonie(read that somewhere on the forum).

Where I live, we eat dogs and you will find them sold in supermarket also, like you would find pork's meat or beef's meat. They are just separated by a couple of meters no more. People raise dogs to kill them fot the next "pesta". I do raise my dogs (rotties) for totally other reasons... but after a few years here, I feel no problem to eat my neighbour's dogs if offered to. Culture is something you integrate and swallow little by little I guess, years after years. You won't become a balinese hindu and accept (or tolerate) any customs over one night...

 

[gilbert de jong]

Hi,
Bert, I live on Bali in a small village, not married (ok), i'm not Hindu, but I am also not Isolated. I contributed to several temples, and went to several ceremonies. Here in the Desa, but also to the temple in Panji. I do that out of respect to the people who invite me to come, They don't care if I'm Hindu or not...They say something like, kamu orang yang sangat baik dan rama, dan kita senang sama kamu. I also always get an invite if there's a upacara in the Desa. I always say that religion is not important to me, if I like you-I like you, dan kalau saya baik sama kamu, pasti kamu juga baik sama saya. answer---Betul pak.Maybe it's because I doesn't mather to me if I interact with a farmer or with the Bupati, or the Ketua Kapolda, they all get the same kind of respect and 'goodwill' from me. I do however change my clothing appropriate to the occasion, so if I join to a temple ceremonie, I dress accordingly. ( to show respect)
Yeah, I've witnessed the killing of a pig, but have seen that before when I was young in Switzerland, so that didn't shock me. It's all about what one has grown to become used to, dogs I (maybe we) see them as pets, not food. If I would have been born here and grew up here, I would have the same 'attitude' towards dogs as the Balinese have. I can therefor relate to their customs, don't like it, but understand them.
However I think you're absolutely right, that although we (westerners) live here an are part of every day life, we will always be that 'outsider' sometimes. Me personally, if I dont open my mouth(speaking Bahasa Indonesia), they think I'm Indonesian, hahaha. Mam is originally from Bandoeng, and my father was Dutch, so I have some Indonesian features.
Oh yeah, I have two temples(don't exactly know which one is for what), their both in the northeast corner of the property, the wife of the guy who takes care of the padi, puts every morning some rice and sugar and coffee there, sometimes eggs, fruit or kue. But like I said don't know what kind of temple they are for sure, thought one was for the house and the other for the land. Sometimes I also find some beautiful flowers in a woven little basket on the car, and on the bike. For safe travels see said. Come to think of it...maybe that's the reason some drive like crazy, they thinking 'I have offered flowers, nothing will happen' ?
Anyways, thanks again Bert for making me 'profit' from your experiences.
friendly greetings, Gilbert.

 

[gilbert de jong]

Hi Kabim,
Wow, that would create a real problem, since I have not had a religious upbringing or education. Only one year at school when I was 12, I had to go to bibleclass, That's it, so in no way compareable with a real religious education, like you have had. I also have no clue if one has to proof he/she is Hindu? Don't think that for example a toothfiling ceremonie, one gets a certificate afterwarths? Administration is not one of the strongest points of the Balinese, at least thats my humble opinion, based on some accountingbooks I had a look at.
Maybe with religion it is different and they keep files in better order?
Now a little off-topic, Rotties...as in Rottweiler right? How many do you have? I have brought mine over from NL(Netherlands). Had Rot's as long as I can remember...I mean when I was born there was a rotweiler in the family, and since then never had been without at least one.

 

[troy]

If you find a girl you love and wish to marry, take her abroad and marry her abroad, then return to Bali if you so wish.

Why would one possibly wish to be married under such circumstances? It is a rediculous law, a primitive law and proof that the nation is unwilling to make any social progression whatsoever.

As for "religious education", what an ironic notion. Reading Snow White is more of a process of education than learning to believe in something with no logical merit. I do agree that learning about a religion or a group of religions can be considered education within the arena of Social Sciences, but learning to believe is learning to be willingly ignorant and is a path heading in the completely opposite direction to that of the path of education.

Yours Truly,

Troy F.

 

[KaBIm]

Wow, that would create a real problem, since I have not had a religious upbringing or education.

If I wouldn't have had the papers, it would not have been a problem. No worries, mate. They would have for sure "educate" me and provide me with the right certificate to show.
It would have just delayed a bit my wedding and forced me to hear with a rather stupid smile on my face, things I don't believe in.
Note that I don't say that you will have to show any proof of "religious education" if you decide one day to marry in the hindu tradition. I just raise the question.

Now a little off-topic, Rotties...as in Rottweiler right? How many do you have?

I have two, male and female. They are just wonderful, especially the female. The boy has a tough character but is OK, as long as I am around.
The male is imported and has german and hungarian decent while the female is born in Indonesia from imported parents. These dogs are just fantastic. I am away from Indonesia about 4 months a year but I know that my wife, kids and houses are safe...

 

[JohnnyCool]

I was just about to mention this when troy beat me to the punch:

If you find a girl you love and wish to marry, take her abroad and marry her abroad, then return to Bali if you so wish.

If you did that and returned to Bali, you would then have to do some paperwork to officially register your marriage locally (ie, in Indonesia). I know because I did it.

Bert raises the following question:

How one can live one in Bali, in a village, be married to a Hindu Balinese woman, and not be Hindu?

It can and does happen. One has to remember that whilst Balinese religion is deeply woven into the fabric of the society, not all Balinese are devout Hindus. For example, my Balinese father-in-law was about as hypocritical as you can get. His wife was as devout as they come. Their two daughters only went through the motions because it was expected of them.

I married one of them abroad. When we returned to live in her village, we were not subject to any ostracism that I could detect. Quite the opposite, in fact. That's not to say that there wasn't lots of village gossip and "theorizing" going on in the background. That happens in any small rural village anywhere on the planet. (Even in city suburbs, for that matter.)

Where there's a will, there's a way.
Not always easy, but always possible.

 

[KaBIm]

If you did that and returned to Bali, you would then have to do some paperwork to officially register your marriage locally (ie, in Indonesia). I know because I did it.

Definitively right JC. Marrying abroad requires for the couple to report to the Catatan Sipil in the delay of 30 days after being back to Indonesia (pasal 37 undan-undang nomor 23 tahun 2006 tentang administrasi kependudukan). Prior to 2006, the delay for reporting was set to 1 year. It is not the case anymore. The Catatan Sipil will issue a "Surat Tanda Bukti Laporan Perkawinan" which is a legal recognition of the marriage. Without it, the girl would be considered as "single" by Indonesian law.

 

[gilbert de jong]

Hi Y'all,
Thanks for all the different views and opinions.
Marrying abroad is ofcourse an option when the time comes. I wouldn't know however how the inlaws would feel about that? Then still on return one has to convert to comply to the family rules, maybe.
Regarding to the law, I have no negative or positive feelings about it. It's just the Law and is easily to 'go around', around as in changing your religion.
Checked with Imigrasi, and I would be considered a 'legal' Hindu if I change my choice there when renewing my KITAS. I also don't have to proof me being Hindu. With the papers of the Imigrasi, I can then get the Surat Tanda Bukti Laporan Perkawinan. However I am not sure if I want to do that, as I understand not everybody does that? Don't know their(Balinese) reasons, mine would be for possible tax reasons, don't know yet how a marriage would influence my taxes I pay in NL.
Since not marrying abroad but here in Bali would be my choice, is there then a time-limit to report the marriage?
I have also talked to the priest of the Desa, and he said that if I wanted a ceremonie for marriage, he would take care of it. So the legal side and the religious side are covered.
Now only have to find that special one, hahaha.
Friendly greetings.....Gilbert.