Yet a newbie says hello

[LarsDK]

Hi all,

My name is Lars and I'm from Denmark. A long time lurker I'm now a poster

I have a question I hope someone can help me with. My indonesian wife and I are planing to purchase a piece of land in Bali this July.

We were married in Denmark 10 years ago.

My question is do we need to get our marriage legalized i Indonesia before buying the property?

I've seen it mentioned a few times before, but never with any explanation as to why.

Regards,

Lars

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Hi Lars,

I am an ex Kopenhagen ex-pat, jeg har boet i Versterbrogade

(30 years ago)

Foreigners are not allowed to own land directly, as you may well know.

Marriage is a legal unity in Indonesia (unless you have a marriage contract, prenup, things are a bit different then) and therefore an Indonesian woman owning property while she is married to a foreigner may run into trouble when there is some sort of legal dispute about the land....

If your wife has an Indonesian passport where nothing about the marriage is mentioned, and she will need a KTP as well, its still tricky.

What I just want to say is, that a marriage with an Indonesian woman, without a prenup, and buying land, may not be the best idea

This has been confirmed by my notary.

 

[Guest]

an Indonesian woman owning property while she is married to a foreigner may run into trouble when there is some sort of legal dispute about the land....

Bert, can you expand on that a bit? What trouble are you talking about?

I'm interested because this is the same scenario for me.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Well,

the thing is that a marriage is a legal unity, and you are Oz, and your wife is Indo. Things bought by you or her, will be owned by both. In case of land this is impossible, foreigners can not own land.

Now suppose, just suppose, that your wife buys land from someone, it all seems ok, but then the brother of the owner sues the owner for something like heritage problems, they may try to find a way to undo the sale of the land to your wife.

If you don't have a prenup, they may go after the legal unity thing.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

I just heard this somewhere, and I asked my notary some time ago, and she confirmed that there may be issues in cases like that...

I never heard of any real live court cases though.

Dewi and I have an Indo prenup for this.

 

[LarsDK]

Thanks for your explanation Bert.

Vi bor i Hellerup nord for København Amazing you remember any Danish 30 years after you've been here. It's not exactly an easy language.

So a prenup is the important thing. Not the registering/legalization of our marriage in Indonesia. Of course getting an Indonesian prenup would probably require that anyway...

 

[Guest]

Ok that explains some situations I have heard about too. There were some "mysterious" problems with the documentation or certificates, people couldn't pay and ended up in jail.

However I'm not sure I follow 100% because in the case of a sale being overturned surely the market value of the land have to be repaid to the purchaser. Also what more can be gained other than the land itself? Are you talking about being "held to ransom" because a building may have already been erected?

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Re: RE: Yet a newbie says hello

So a prenup is the important thing. Not the registering/legalization of our marriage in Indonesia. Of course getting an Indonesian prenup would probably require that anyway...

I guess so.

I will try to get some more definite info and procedures next time I see her.

 

[Guest]

Not the registering/legalization of our marriage in Indonesia.

If you are in the same situation as me your wife will have a stamp in her passport that might give you away. It is a requirement that Indonesians residing overseas declare their intention to keep their Indonesian nationality. When we did this the consulate stamped my wife's passport.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Re: RE: Yet a newbie says hello

However I'm not sure I follow 100% because in the case of a sale being overturned surely the market value of the land have to be repaid to the purchaser. Also what more can be gained other than the land itself? Are you talking about being "held to ransom" because a building may have already been erected?

Well, in case of good willing people you may be lucky.

But, usually the actual sales price is quite different from the amount that will be in a sales contract, since tax needs to be paid. 5% for the owner, 5% for the buyer. There is market value, and there is a minimum value you can get away with paying tax over.

I would not bet on any money being returned...

 

[iainsomers]

For me this is also new. My wife does own land (bought after we were married). What is a prenup (dutch word for it?).

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Huwelijkse Voorwaarden, and this is Bahasa too

 

[LarsDK]

If you are in the same situation as me your wife will have a stamp in her passport that might give you away. It is a requirement that Indonesians residing overseas declare their intention to keep their Indonesian nationality. When we did this the consulate stamped my wife's passport.

Yes we did the same. I guess you refer to the stamp stating that she is residing outside Indonesia and as such is exempt from paying fiscal when leaving Indonesia. Which is really nice. Fiscal is one of my least favourite things...

 

[iainsomers]

How long after the land is bought, you think problems car arise?

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Ian,

There is no guarantee for problems in most cases there will be no problems at all.

It is however so that in case of problems the outcome may be influenced by weaknesses, such as the mixed ownership thing.

My notary advises to make a prenup, so "mixed nationality" ownership is not an issue, legally.

Prenups have to be made up before the civil marriage.

 

[iainsomers]

Which is impossible if you are already married for 6 years. But we will see.
by the way I would love to come by next time that i'm in Bali and chat a little with you. If you like that ofcourse. (unfortunatly I forced myself to make 2007 the year of "working my ass even more off", so I wont be going to Bali this year).

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Ok, just get rich soon....

You are welcome to visit me and Dewi....

 

[Sergio]

Welcome to the forum Lars!

 

[FreoGirl]

However I'm not sure I follow 100% because in the case of a sale being overturned surely the market value of the land have to be repaid to the purchaser

As Bert said there is the value and then there's the Value.

But also, I think in most cases the money will be long gone - so not much chance of getting it back.

Welcome to the forum Lars

 

[Guest]

But also, I think in most cases the money will be long gone - so not much chance of getting it back.

That might be true however I want to understand the issue from the legal point of view. Even in Bali there must be legal principles that apply. If not the economic system would collapse.

I understand Bert flagging the issue as an example of what could possibly happen in a rare instance but to generalise it and say that "in most cases" the worst case scenario would eventuate is yet to be substantiated. What are you basing your assumption on? Until we have first hand examples there's no point tilting at windmills.

In regard to understating sale price to avoid tax that's a calculated risk and if I took that risk and lost then c'est la vie.