Wine, prices, importing, availibility

[iainsomers]

Hi,

On all my visits to Bali I saw that the prices for wine are quite high. I have a few questions regarding this:

1. Is there a good liquor-shop in Bali with an extensive choice of wine?
2. Is it true that the tax on importing wine is 75%?
3. Are the more wine-loving creatures on this forum?

 

[Roy]

To answer you last question first, yes, there are some serious wine lovers on this forum.

I’m not sure that wine is taxed at 75% but it is taxed at the same rate as hard liquor. I’m not sure about other countries, but in the US for example, liquor taxes are based on their percentage of alcohol. Moreover, the amount allowed to be brought into Indonesia is the same for wine and hard liquor, i.e. one liter per person. That makes for another problem when trying to bring in good wine, i.e. the bottles are normally 750 ml, so only one bottle would be allowed within the limit guidelines. Two bottles would be 500 ml over the limit, which one may, or may not get away with.

That can be a dicey gamble. On my twice a year visits to Bangkok, I generally will bring back two bottles of wine (750 ml) and for most of the time, the customs guy is not too shaken up by it. However, I have had one occasion when the customs guy demanded to seize one of the bottles (my choice) and I couldn’t even offer to pay a tax for that second bottle. That would be heartbreaking if both those bottles had been a vintage first growth claret!

One improvement that most expats will note over the years is an ever increasing variety of good wines, especially from Australia, being available in Bali. As you note however, and especially would be noted by Australians, the prices here are not good...due to the tax. There are members on this forum (and I’ll let them speak for themselves) who are pretty expert at getting a good supply of wines in from OZ.

As for availability, there are a number of good wine shops around, particularly in the South. Wines can also be found in many of the specialty food shops, as well as the larger supermarket type food shops...but variety there may not always be that great. In my own experience, (and wine is like art...there is no accounting for taste), it’s very hard to find much that is potable for under Rp 150,000 a bottle.

 

[iainsomers]

I also saw the supermarket-wines and their prices. They will do for the daily consumption, but not for the "special occasions" (like cristmas, eastern, birthdays, 1st day of the month, last day of the month, the birth of a batch of fishes, the first rain of the month and so on).

But it seems like I have to pay a lot more for my beloved (mostly italian) wines.

 

[Roy]

I guess it's all about balance. As you say, "only in asia I find my peace"...and sadly, only in Asia will I overpay for my "beloved (mostly italian) wines."

If you wish to send me a PM, I most likely will be able to fix you up during your stays on Bali with a nice bottle of vino for those "Hallmark occasions."
:wink:

 

[irma1812]

My hubby is also a wine lover! That's one thing he dreads when we do make the move next year!

Having said that, there was a great Italian Restaurant we went to a few months ago in Sanur centre, with a "walk-in" wine storage and he had a lovely bottle of italian wine under Rp150.000. In a restaurant in England it would cost twice that. Being a restaurant maybe they have the buying power to buy cheaply.

 

[Roy]

Sorry Irma, but I have difficulty reconciling that a good bottle of Italian wine at an Italian restaurant in Sanur was half the price of the same bottle in a restaurant in England. Perhaps the label was similar to something else, or the romance of the dinner, and the wine, made it seem that way. Any wine served at a romantic dinner has that power! Nothing wrong with that!

Just check this wine seller’s web site from England who offers a nice assortment of Italian wines as an exporter, and it will be very evident that any wine of caliber simply cannot be found here in Bali at a wine shop, and certainly not a restaurant, at less that 150,000 rupiah, even if it’s contraband.

Then again, you can tell us the name of the restaurant in Sanur and the wine your husband ordered for under 150 K and who knows? You may have a new convert!


http://www.bbr.com/US/shopping/producer ... P6J00BG#46

 

[irma1812]

OK, ok...... you win Om Roy! My hubby just confirmed that it was a bit more than that. Couldn't remember exactly but he thought it was about £15 (approx Rp255.000). He still thought it was good value though considering it was from quite a posh restaurant! (Can't remember the name though)

Maaf ya Bapak Roy.......

 

[Jimbo]

Good wines from Italy????? a misnomer perchance

 

[Roy]

No need for the ma’af Irma. I was wishing for information and a new source!

In the end though, spending some “real bucks” for a good bottle of wine at a very good restaurant from time to time, is OK with me, even though I may end up taking some of it home, “bunkus” as Eri is often not of the same mind.

When she sees the serious amount of rupiah needed to stock our wine cellar, I will at that time either be doomed, or she will overlook that expenditure, being completely pleased with the final results of our new house.

I told her that I just joined AA, and our motto is, “one case at a time.”

 

[iainsomers]

Re: RE: Wine, prices, importing, availibility

Good wines from Italy????? a misnomer perchance

At least not overrated (and overpriced) as their french colleagues. But dont get me wrong, I love french wine also.

But a good Barolo is hard to beat in my (not so conventional) taste.

 

[Thorsten]

My God Roy :shock:

just checked the link you've provided, an internet trader from US, that's what I call overpriced !!!

Thank God we don't rely on such a robber here and I really would like to know, who's stupid enough to order Italian wine for delivery to UK in the USA ? :roll:

best regards
Thorsten

PS: I know it's mean, but in Bali I drink Bintang or cocktails, the wine I drink at home :wink:

 

[nickbo]

Thorsten ,
I'm absolutely agree with you in Bali only beer or cocktails !!!

Honestly ..last time I have been in Bali I had in my hand- baggage one wonderful bottle of Gewurtraminer and one of Donna Fugata (....amazing wine from Sicily) for my good friend KOMANG that, I'm shure , really appreciated my gifts!!!

 

[iainsomers]

beer and cocktails are nice to, but sorry, I cannot do without a good wine now and then.

 

[matsaleh]

I'm with you there. Vodka martinis are wonderful (and lethal :shock: ), but sometimes only a good bottle of red will suffice.

8)

 

[Thorsten]

I know wine drinkers will have a problem in Bali, the tender for wine is limited and for something decent you will pay certainly a lot, another problem is doubtless the proper storage of wine.

Roy sometimes mentioned this Chateau Lafite, well I became a wine and Champagne drinker in the age of 10 years due my parents (unthinkable in the US?), my father was what I call a “label drinker”, in fact he had no taste for wine, but was always proud and satisfied to provide French wine with an expensive label.
I wouldn’t call myself an expert in wine, but this market for high priced wines is simply ridiculous and most of the people who spend enormous amounts are collectors, braggers, don’t know where to put the money elsewhere, or are Asian businessmen providing these wines in a business meeting in Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong, sometimes mixed with coke, or orange juice!
It’s the label, which sells the wine and ratings of some (sometimes dubious) experts, the prices for these wines are never justified, not to talk about auctions!

Whoever thinks to need to spend hundreds of Euros for a bottle of 1er Grand Cru classé – I’m fine with that, but whoever wants to drink a good wine for the wine and not for the label will find a lot of very good and much cheaper alternatives on the market, forget these overpriced Chateau Latours, Margauxs, Pauillacs
When I attended a “blind testing” of Bordeauxs 2er Grand Cru classé (in the price range from 50-890 €/ bottle), none of these so-called experts there found out the “pirate” in this testing, it was a Spanish Cabernet Sauvignon for 17,50 € the bottle and this was exactly the wine I’ve bought afterwards :wink:

My special tip for wine lovers here in Europe today, try the wines of Enate from Spain, Enate - Cabernet Sauvignon Reserva 2000 for 18€ the bottle will easily beat the most of this overpriced, industrial crap from Bordeaux and the label is nice too!
For Bali – I would certainly count on Australian wines, some of them are really yummy, although I don’t like how they are produced over there. :roll:

best regards
Thorsten

 

[Jimbo]

Barolo is the best wine in the world if you are eating........... chocolate. For me I love Australian reds as they are full of flavours and are great with or on their own. But... although there are many pitiful wines in France even under the AC label the best they produce is still the best.

Try Sicilian Nero D'avola for an excellent change and there are of course very palatable Italian and even Spanish varieties but best drunk in the country of origin. Finally one of the best wines to lay down for up to 20 years is the grape variet they use in port. Care to hazard a guess at its name

 

[Roy]

Thorsten, no doubt the label adds to the price of the best wines. Label, or brand name appeal applies to virtually all aspects of consumer goods, from automobiles to handbags.

Chateau Lafite has been producing some of the finest claret since the late 17th century. It would be hard to imagine how this wine producer could stay in business for over 300 years if they were not producing a very fine product.

I think your generalization of who buys these fine vintage wines as being limited to collectors, braggers and Asian business men is over the top. Funny, that while you zero in on French wine, you make no mention of the very expensive German sweet wines, or vintage Ports. This is not to mention the high prices achieved for fine California wine. For example a bottle of Inglenook Cabernet Sauvignon vintage 1965 runs about US $260.00 whereas a current vintage year can be had for just over US $4.00. It’s not simply the label that makes some of these wines so expensive, but rather the reputation of the vineyard and the vintage year that counts the most. That said however, it is also very true that wine market manipulators can force price fluctuations that are not necessarily deserved.

Many folks make the mistake of drinking these red Bordeaux wines far earlier than they should. Proper aging which means proper storage, usually for at least ten years is needed to bring these wines to maturity and full elegance. Simple economy is the reason these vintage wines are expensive...i.e. the initial cost of acquisition which is tied up for at least ten years, and the expense of proper storage during that period.

Believe it or not Thorsten, there are lots of people out there who enjoy a great vintage wine for the sake of the sheer pleasure of the wine itself and for no other reason. My personal exposure to Lafite was in my “other life,” the corporate world, where entertaining important clients was an essential aspect of the sales process. Unfortunately, I haven’t enjoyed a great bottle of Lafite for about 12 years now, but given a current opportunity, I wouldn’t pass it up...on someone else’s expense account of course!

 

[Thorsten]

My personal exposure to Lafite was in my “other life,” the corporate world, where entertaining important clients was an essential aspect of the sales process.

Thanks Roy, that’s what I wanted to know
So how do you like your Lafite – with coke or better with orange juice ?:wink:

Of course they are producing excellent wines in Bordeaux and I love them, this is out of question, but as it’s beyond my comprehension why somebody will pay thousands of Euros for a simple handbag, I also don’t understand why people are willing to pay several hundreds and sometimes even thousands of Euros for a bottle of wine, no wine on earth is worth this!
Let’s take the Chateau Lafite as an example how this price policy works.

The classification of French vineyards is really strange and also is different all over the country, so confusion is programmed. The Chateau Lafite was classified as 1er Grand Cru Classé in 1855, since that time it is regarded as one of a few vineyards rated as the top of Bordeaux, this classification was and will never be reviewed, no chance to lose this and for others no chance to achieve this, so it’s almost like a licence to print money!
While a bottle of 2002 Chateau Lafite is for a price on the market about 140 €, you will get a nice Pauillac from their neighbourhood for under 20€, the same grapes, the same ground, the same producing technique, so is the Lafite 7 times better, certainly not?!
Maybe the wine from the neighbourhood is even better, but this doesn’t count, simply the classification of the label will justify the higher price (which was from 1855), it has nothing to do with the current quality.

Older wines are more expensive than younger wines due costs of storage?
So let’s have a look Roy, your favourite vintage of Chateau Lafite 1966 is available for 130€ on the market (it was really not something special), the vintage 1986 is not under 600€ available and 1959 is not for under 1,500€, so what’s now?
The price has nothing to do with the age of the wine at all, the vintage counts and even much more the rating of Mr. Robert Parker!

Parker is regarded as the pope of wine, his yearly wine guide is like the bible for many wine drinkers all around the world, Parker points are making the price!
I know people who look at first into the Parker before they drink the wine (that they will know how it tastes). :lol:
Gee, this guy must be drunk 24/7 at 365 days of the year due the thousands of wines he claims to have tested every year!

Label + vintage + Parker makes the price, and people believe what they want to believe – fine, I’ll leave it to these businessmen in New York, Shanghai, Tokyo or elsewhere to brag with this stuff, although I consider this as a lost of culture, like pearls for the pigs.

When I will drink an old Bordeaux in front of the fire place at x-mas night, I will be thinking of you Roy and have a toast on you, really a shame that the old Chateau Margaux is not good anymore, maybe I should sell it on ebay to China ? :roll: :wink:

best regards
Thorsten

 

[iainsomers]

I agree with Thorsten that most french 1st and 2nd cru's are overpriced. But so are Lamborgini's, house in Monaco, big diamonds and first class stocks. Sometimes people just want the best. And I think you are right when you say that alot want that because they like bragging. But maybe the bragging satisfies them.

I like to drink all kind of wines. One of the thing I like about wine is that taste is very personal. And the taste is not only determined by the product but also by the situation. I think that drinking a glass of Barolo, while eating chocolate, with my sweet wife in a cosey restaurant tastes better than drinking a Barolo in bali, while eating care, with Jimbo! On the other hand I think that discussing different wines in a good bar is more interesting with Jimbo than with my wife (she drinks 3 glasses a year).

The best wine this year so far (with cristmas still coming up) was a bottle of 1994 Ch. Talbot together with my dad while restructuring his stock-portfolio.

 

[Roy]

So how do you like your Lafite – with coke or better with orange juice ?

I prefer it at room temperature in a large roundish claret glass accompanying a fine filet mignon medium rare and in the company of those whose palette knows when an angel is pissing on their tongue.

I agree with Iain’s call on Châteaux Talbot, not to be confused with Talbott of California. As a second growth Bordeaux, it is excellent wine and a great value.