When I'm gonna move to bali, part (depends on situation at that moment) of my company will move with me. I'l need a good (tax)lawyer. My current (dutch) laywer is very good and the have a co-operation with a lawyer from Jakarta. That would work, but because of travelling and local habits I would prefer a good and trustworthy balinese lawyer. Can anyone give me advice on which office/lawyer to contact?
which lawyer
- Thread starter iainsomers
- Start date
The best local legal representation in Bali depends on what Regency in Bali your business, and thus your legal needs are located. Your Dutch lawyer is useless here, so also is your lawyer from Jakarta unless you are caught with tons of drugs, or you have been accused of murder. In that case, your Jakarta lawyer might be useful, as your criminal case would be held in the Provincial court of Bali, in Denpasar.
Business matters are handled on the Regency level, so, you need the best in the appropriate Regency, an attorney who is well known and respected. If that is to be Gianyar, I can recommend the best lawyer in the Gianyar Regency. If you are to set up shop in another Regency, then maybe someone else can make recommendations.
Business matters are handled on the Regency level, so, you need the best in the appropriate Regency, an attorney who is well known and respected. If that is to be Gianyar, I can recommend the best lawyer in the Gianyar Regency. If you are to set up shop in another Regency, then maybe someone else can make recommendations.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not setting up a shop. My line of bussiness is trading stocks, bonds, derivatives and so on. Looks like hedgefund bussiness. The main reason for what I need the attorney is to negotiate taxes and to put the proper stuctures in place to pay as less tax as possible (prob trough S'pore or HK). Also I could occasionally need some advise on more regular issues like visa (though I saw that BaliIDE is very good), real estate issues. But those are not so important. Most important is the avoiding of tax. It must be legal ofcourse. So probably my jakarta attorney could do something, but I would like to use one from Bali.
At the moment we think of going to live in Kerobokan/ Canggu (if that is a little more developed in 3 years).
At the moment we think of going to live in Kerobokan/ Canggu (if that is a little more developed in 3 years).
What I said was, "if you are to set up shop in another Regency..." and what you describe, the financial services business, is most definately "setting up shop."
Aside from the insurance industry, which can loosely be described as within the nomenclature of the financial services business, I am totally unaware of any foreigners who have set up, or are involved in the stocks, bonds and commodities trading business on Bali. That goes for banking as well, which is perhaps the most basic of the financial services business. I wish you luck.
Funny too, after all my years in Bali, I never thought of Singapore or Hong Kong as an "off shore tax haven" but your choice of residency...Kerobokan is excellent, as it is the site of the prison in Bali.
Its not that I really wanna setup a bussiness in Bali. Maybe I'm gonna trade in Europe, but just be based in Bali. Hopefully I be able to stop working at all, but then I'll have my holdings in the Netherlands and be based in Bali. I know people in Bali who have their company in S'pore. They say that they negotiated their corporate tax rate in Bali to under 10%, but then S'pore was still cheaper. For under 10% I wouldnt choose S'pore.
I know about the jail in Kerobokan, but I prefer to think of other benefits (like faster internet, being not in the jungle (quote: my wife), international schools).
But concluding: I will need a good attorney in the south of Bali. Anybody (maybe you also know someone). Next time I'm in Bali I'll talk to him, on how and waht to prepare already. Also he must speak English, tapi saya tidak biciara bahassa indonesia.
I know about the jail in Kerobokan, but I prefer to think of other benefits (like faster internet, being not in the jungle (quote: my wife), international schools).
But concluding: I will need a good attorney in the south of Bali. Anybody (maybe you also know someone). Next time I'm in Bali I'll talk to him, on how and waht to prepare already. Also he must speak English, tapi saya tidak biciara bahassa indonesia.
If you are physically located in Bali, trading on the internet as business, then you are in business...in Bali, Indonesia...period! I have my own first hand personal experiences with this, and while you might be able to “get away with it” for the short time...in the long time it will come and bite your ass.
No worries about the good lawyers speaking English here in Bali. Their best clients speak it, so trust me, they know it well!
No worries about the good lawyers speaking English here in Bali. Their best clients speak it, so trust me, they know it well!
I agree. It works like that in every country. But I probably gave the impression that i'm a daytrader. Thats not true. There will also be people trading for me in the Netherlands. I just have a complicated tree of companies and assets. It will take an attorney a lot of time.
But one other thing. I heard from 2 different people who work in bali (different bussiness though) that the corporate tax rate is negotiable down to under 10%. I didnt see that on this forum. Is it true or have those 2 people probably gave a lot of "smoking money".
But one other thing. I heard from 2 different people who work in bali (different bussiness though) that the corporate tax rate is negotiable down to under 10%. I didnt see that on this forum. Is it true or have those 2 people probably gave a lot of "smoking money".
Thats why I said that at the low tariff of 10% I pay in bali. But at 30% thats a whole other story.
I think that is everywhere the same. If you like your life in a certain place you would like to contribute, but not at any price.
I think that is everywhere the same. If you like your life in a certain place you would like to contribute, but not at any price.
I’m not going to argue the morality (and stupidity) of paying lots of taxes, or the immorality (and smartness) of paying none, or little. I am a product of the Wall Street corporate game, and taxes are like death and divorce...unavoidable, unavoidable and very likely in that order.
The taxability of your income, derived totally by your business interests outside of Indonesia, and not associated with any business interests in Indonesia is questionable anyway, and reporting that activity would surely be shooting yourself in the foot.
If you play your financial game of trading stocks, bonds, or commodities here on Bali, only if on your computer, and with no Indonesian clients, be they locals or expats, your activities will soon enough be discovered...I assure you. However, the activities of your employees, associates, partners, or whatever you call them back in Holland, even though those activities advance your wealth base, are off of Indonesia’s radar...and you shouldn’t, even if they say you should, pay taxes here for that income.
Indonesia’s tax laws, as it applies to foreigners, is largely “activity” based. If your activity here, while living in Indonesia, produces income, even if “off shore” then it is in theory, taxable. Then again, depending on your visa status, even interest income on assets out of Indonesia without your activity can be taxable, but only if you report those assets...which is sometimes required to get the right visa.
My point is more based on the fact that you may eventually need to set up either a CV or PT company, to become “legit” and with an Indonesian partner for most any business enterprise you want to pursue while living in Indonesia. In that case, leave ALL tax related matters in the hands of your Indonesian partner.
Also, keep in mind that any business or income related activity of a foreigner who is not on the proper visa designed for that specific business activity, (and there are several different types of business visas) violates immigration laws. While the tax people may currently lack teeth, the immigration folks do not, and it is not unusual here in Indonesia that a suspected tax evasion scheme of a foreigner is turned over to immigration for their resolution...meaning possible deportation or at minimum, some serious fines.
Sorry that I can’t recommend any really good attorneys in the southern part of Bali. No doubt there are many, given the level of foreign investment down there. Again, good luck and there is no sweat off my back concerning your tax concerns. Hell, I hate the idea of sending any money back to the states for GW Jr. to use in his war machine!
The taxability of your income, derived totally by your business interests outside of Indonesia, and not associated with any business interests in Indonesia is questionable anyway, and reporting that activity would surely be shooting yourself in the foot.
If you play your financial game of trading stocks, bonds, or commodities here on Bali, only if on your computer, and with no Indonesian clients, be they locals or expats, your activities will soon enough be discovered...I assure you. However, the activities of your employees, associates, partners, or whatever you call them back in Holland, even though those activities advance your wealth base, are off of Indonesia’s radar...and you shouldn’t, even if they say you should, pay taxes here for that income.
Indonesia’s tax laws, as it applies to foreigners, is largely “activity” based. If your activity here, while living in Indonesia, produces income, even if “off shore” then it is in theory, taxable. Then again, depending on your visa status, even interest income on assets out of Indonesia without your activity can be taxable, but only if you report those assets...which is sometimes required to get the right visa.
My point is more based on the fact that you may eventually need to set up either a CV or PT company, to become “legit” and with an Indonesian partner for most any business enterprise you want to pursue while living in Indonesia. In that case, leave ALL tax related matters in the hands of your Indonesian partner.
Also, keep in mind that any business or income related activity of a foreigner who is not on the proper visa designed for that specific business activity, (and there are several different types of business visas) violates immigration laws. While the tax people may currently lack teeth, the immigration folks do not, and it is not unusual here in Indonesia that a suspected tax evasion scheme of a foreigner is turned over to immigration for their resolution...meaning possible deportation or at minimum, some serious fines.
Sorry that I can’t recommend any really good attorneys in the southern part of Bali. No doubt there are many, given the level of foreign investment down there. Again, good luck and there is no sweat off my back concerning your tax concerns. Hell, I hate the idea of sending any money back to the states for GW Jr. to use in his war machine!
Thanks for you long reply. I is almost exactly like I thought it was. And ofcourse when I want to work in Bali for my own business I have to pay taxes, and that wouldnt matter.
Can you also confirm the rate after negotiation can be a lot lower than the official 30%.
Can you also confirm the rate after negotiation can be a lot lower than the official 30%.
Geez! Pretty soon I’ll have to send you a bill!
It is not the rate of the tax that should be at issue here. It's the bloody net income that is taxable that IS at issue. Is that any different than anywhere else in the world? It sure is the proverbial "bottom line" in the US!
Without intending any insult to you, or the Dutch in general, there is an old saying in New York...(which your ancestor’s founded), that the Dutch “are tighter than bark to a tree.” This leaves the otherwise thrifty and penny wise Scotts, like myself, in second place.
So...why am I telling you how “the game” is played?
I'll thank you anyway. Just wanted to see the answer. Next time I'll talk about more nice things than taxes and lawyers. Cause working and earning money will not be my objective in Bali. I hope. :lol:
There is nothing that is not nice about working and making money...in Bali, or anywhere else. It is a necessity...and a sad fact of life.
What is at issue, for me anyway, is what one does with the money earned that is beyond one’s needs?
In spite of my razing you a bit, I really hope that when you move here, you make billions and billions of rupiah or guilders, (Euros I guess now). But I also hope that you remember to give back to Bali some of what she has given you. That is not something I call tax.
What is at issue, for me anyway, is what one does with the money earned that is beyond one’s needs?
In spite of my razing you a bit, I really hope that when you move here, you make billions and billions of rupiah or guilders, (Euros I guess now). But I also hope that you remember to give back to Bali some of what she has given you. That is not something I call tax.
Roy,
sorry I don't post often but I always follow your discussions on this forum.
(This is my first summer after six running years that I'm no able to come to BALI ).
I' m absolutely agree with you and I really appreciated your words
"....But I also hope that you remember to give back to Bali some of what she has given you. That is not something I call tax"
This is an important teacherege for us europeans that wanna move to BALI
Grazie
sorry I don't post often but I always follow your discussions on this forum.
(This is my first summer after six running years that I'm no able to come to BALI
).I' m absolutely agree with you and I really appreciated your words
"....But I also hope that you remember to give back to Bali some of what she has given you. That is not something I call tax"
This is an important teacherege for us europeans that wanna move to BALI
Grazie
I wouldnt worry about that. I'm workaholic. So when I stop doing my job I'm gonna take up a lot of other things. Bali will benefit more from me, than the netherlands ever had. I just cannot do nothing.
Thanks all for your replies. Still: does someone know a good attorney in the south of bali?
Thanks all for your replies. Still: does someone know a good attorney in the south of bali?
Just to bump up. Ma'af. I'm still looking for a good and relaible tax-adviser/attorney in the south of Bali
Sorry Iain, I should have given you the following information sooner. One of the very best, if not the best tax attorneys in Indonesia is Sri Indrasuti Hadiputranto, SH, LL.M. Her office is in the Jakarta Sock Exchange Building. Her firm is called Hadiputranto, Hadinoto & Partners. Her firm’s web site (in English) is:
http://www.hhp.co.id
Ibu Indra is a most remarkable lady. Beyond her status as top in her field, she is a great personality and lots of fun to spend time with. She often comes to Bali on weekends, so arranging an appointment with her here on Bali with you will not be difficult. If you decide to contact her, by all means you can say that Roy and Eri recommended you to her.
http://www.hhp.co.id
Ibu Indra is a most remarkable lady. Beyond her status as top in her field, she is a great personality and lots of fun to spend time with. She often comes to Bali on weekends, so arranging an appointment with her here on Bali with you will not be difficult. If you decide to contact her, by all means you can say that Roy and Eri recommended you to her.