When will liberation come?

[Alexandre]

When do you expect the Balinese to reclaim their land?

Do you believe they will wait for the leases to expire or do you think that will happen sooner, maybe when we hit a recession.

Surely the cards are in their hands with all these expats building villas after villas.

It is my opinion that Balinese just have to wait. At some stage it will be optimal for them to take back what they have leased.

 

[manc in oz]

I think you've just scared the living daylights out of a lot of people.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Well Alexandre,

You have left out of few options in your poll, and your wording is of someone that wants to "troll".

Anyway, your highly unrealistic "scaring" doomsday scenario is very funny...

None the less, it maybe a question that people ask themselves sometimes.

Will Indonesia ever become that unstable that they start throwing out foreigners?

So, who is scared? Only Alexandre?

 

[DCC]

Too-shay Bert! And me no scare, me good swimmer.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Alexandre, I have added an option to your post.

Interesting you call it "liberation"....

You think Bali is "occupied" ?

 

[Alexandre]

Bert,

it is certainly not my intention to troll this site, keep cool.

I chose Liberation as I believe the word carries positive values and a positive message most of the times. Think of the liberation of Paris for instance but maybe not the liberation of Iraq.

Obviously it depends who is on the receiving end.

Regarding the options, I added one which offered the choice of "it will never happen" but it didn't show up when I posted. Thank you for adding one, although the bit about Bali loving too much foreign investors can as well be open to questions.

I voted the Liberation may occur not within the next 5 years but after.

Why?

I have spent several months in Bali in the recent past and had the chance to do this through several vacations which gave me some time to experience Bali and the Balinese but certainly not with the experience that you have and other permanent expats have.

Nonetheless what I found is:
- rampant real estate speculation by foreigners
- little contribution to the general infrastructure by these investors (road construction, sewage systems,...)
- Inefficiemt tax collection that does not support the development of this infrastructure
- a quick buck that Balinese can make by leasing their land thereby sometime losing their only mean of subsistence for an immediate payoff (give a man a fish, he'll eat for day, teachhim how to fish he'll eat forever)
- a very strong Balinese culture that doesn't integrate foreigners despite what some believe. There is no integration. People can be mislead as Balinese will let almost everybody feel welcome but when it comes to integration it's another matter.
- the risk of a worldwide recession that will result in dire consequences for emerging markets, especially for real estate speculation.

These are the main reasons I believe there is a Liberation risk or whatever you want to call it.

I know there are some expats that behave well and contribute to a sustainable development of the island but they are overwhelmed by the hordes of speculators coming for a quick buck. This could end up badly if the equilibrium is breached and the Balinese way of life is affected.

Bali will never be Hawai.

Sorry I have to run but I'm more than happy to keep discussing.

Have a nice day.

 

[Roy]

Well, I called my Guru, discussed this string, and got an “OK” to temporarily leave my sabbatical in order to respond.

Alexandre, you have NO idea what you are talking about. It is ignorant and potentially damaging posts like yours that have kept me busy here for years.

In your “several months” on Bali, you haven’t learned a thing about Bali, or the Balinese people.

In my village, talk like yours would lead to a not so kind name...tamu bodoh. (dumb tourist) And, no question, you fulfill ALL the requirements of this name.

 

[zonobono]

please call your guru again, roy.

 

[Roy]

Clever it is, coming from a guy whose ID sounds like a machine used to clean hockey rinks.

Ya, it must be tough being stuck in some frozen alps just wishing you were here and wondering, what is a Guru? :lol:

Yoooodoooooladyhoooo!

 

[JAMIE]

ROY ..I thought you were gone ? This string has brought you back ? whats your deal , you get to come out of hiding with a pot shot or two and run away again ? Be a man and stand behind your words at all times , If things get too hot leaving the kitchen is not the answer turning down the oven is . Anyway , this is a ridiculous poll . Who in there right mind would scare away a major sorce of income ? please

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Maybe a better way to handle this is to discuss the ramifications of the increase in foreign ownership vs. having a poll.
What is the fall-out for the Balinese from this and level of impact of this fall-out?
What will be the Balinese reaction to any of these changes?
How will this effect the expatriate community or even the tourist coming to Bali?

I would like to hear from some of you regarding what the local communities are saying regarding the influx of foreign owned villas, etc. Or has there even been a reaction?

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Roy,

go and meditate.

One more remark with useless insults and I will send you on sabbatical.

Why the BEEP can't you just respectfully disagree???

 

[Bert Vierstra]

I think Alexandre asks some legitimate questions.

- little contribution to the general infrastructure by these investors (road construction, sewage systems,...)
- Inefficient tax collection that does not support the development of this infrastructure

Yes. Its a pity that things are not better regulated.

- a quick buck that Balinese can make by leasing their land thereby sometime losing their only mean of subsistence for an immediate payoff (give a man a fish, he'll eat for day, teach him how to fish he'll eat forever)

Yes. The government has send messages to the people and asked them not to sell their land.

It seems that especially young people are falling prey to greed.

- a very strong Balinese culture that doesn't integrate foreigners despite what some believe. There is no integration. People can be mislead as Balinese will let almost everybody feel welcome but when it comes to integration it's another matter.

Maybe you can tell some of your own experiences ?

- the risk of a worldwide recession that will result in dire consequences for emerging markets, especially for real estate speculation.

How do you think this would work in Bali?

 

[Lee]

Alexandre, First of all I don’t think that land that has been leased is a problem. It is ridiculous to say that the Balinese wouldn’t honour any formal lease agreement by trying to reclaim their land before the end of the agreement. Eventually it will fall back into the hands of the original owner/family and that is what counts.

It’s the future generations that will feel the effect if all of the family land has been sold of for a quick financial gain, especially productive land.

Personally I don’t like all of this villa development. I think that the effect on the Balinese, of all the foreigners moving to Bali to own their little piece of paradise will not be seen for a while but it will happen, how I’m not sure, but it will happen.

a very strong Balinese culture that doesn't integrate foreigners despite what some believe. There is no integration. People can be mislead as Balinese will let almost everybody feel welcome but when it comes to integration it's another matter.

I disagree with this comment; it is the foreigners that resist integrating fully with the culture. The Balinese love it when foreigners want to adapt to the culture no matter how little and are very tolerant of our shortcomings.

Of all the expats I have met who have purchased their little piece of paradise here I would say that the majority of them have no interest in assimilating with the culture. In fact many of them do nothing but complain about the differences and how much better the place would be if they (the Balinese) did it this way or that way.

 

[Roy]

Bert, I’m sorry, but I have a big, big problem “respectfully” disagreeing with posts made here which are a billion percent off target, and inaccurate.

The idea of Balinese “liberation” as raised by Alexandre is preposterous to say the least. If you don’t want a strong knowledgeable voice to offset this folly then fine, send me off to a cave for more meditation, but while doing so, ask yourself why there are so few long term expats who live here that also post here? Hell, once I’ve been sent off the cave, why not invite MA for some REALLY accurate perspective on Bali? If you want your forum to descend into an abyss of hyperbole, then so be it, as I’ve said over and over, you are the boss...and it’s your forum.

In the interim, I’ll offer a little “heads up” and ask when was the last time ANYONE heard of a Balinese selling off their compound? It’s a rhetorical question, as it just doesn’t happen. More often than not, the land leased or sold by Balinese is either non productive farm land, land along a river (where they cannot, nor will live) or shoreline property....again restricted in their minds for living.

It is the Balinese who most profit from land transactions on Bali. In the village of Kedewatan-Bunutan, there were 68 real estate transactions filed in Gianyar last year at the office my brother in law heads up. Of those transactions, 52 were sales, and virtually all but three of them were Balinese to Balinese, and all of them residing in the same village area. The other three were to non Balinese Indonesians. The remaining transactions were lease transactions, mostly with foreigners and of an average 20 year duration.

So, I’ll go back to my cave now Bert, but not without a comment for Jamie....buddy, speaking of caves, you need to get out of Bergen New Jersey more often, or at least once in your life.

 

[manc in oz]

:roll: Some people have opinions and some people have hissy fits

 

[rien.gluvers]

I think it is a misunderstanding to say the Balinese are selling out their land. I have bought some land in the north, and in my search for it about 75% of the properties that where offered to me where owned by Indonesian people form other Islands.

 

[matahari]

This is starting to be pathetic :!: Roy.. get a new GURU, cause the one you have now is obviuosly not doing his job. I mean letting you go back to the forum in this clearly non harmonic state of yours is a shame :wink:

1-800-GURU could that be something.. it`s tollfree i might add :lol:

 

[zonobono]

damn, 1-800-GURU is MY phone number. how did you find out :twisted:

 

[Roy]

A funny pairing of posts. One from Norway, and the other from Switzerland, and neither from a place called Bali....so why am I surprised?

Ignorance is truly bliss...and I hope you both revel in your moment of this bliss. It’s tough isn’t it...not being here but wishing you could be? “Funny fools” is an expat favorite breakfast at Nuris. You can use your imagination.

Neither of you have even the slightest modicum of knowledge about Bali, and in case you think this fact is not well known, just search your previous posts. Da da from Bali and from our pura, as it is full moon.