Pope Benedict and Muslim Reactions

[Jim Thorpe]

RE: How Terrorism changed (your) the World

London, Bali, Beslan, Madrid, Mumbai, Sudan, Somalia, Thailand, Philippines, Egypt....I can go on and on where the Islamic militants have attacked innocents. But why even go back? Let's look at what the moderates are doing today....
Somali cleric calls for pope's death
Email Print Normal font Large font September 17, 2006

HARDLINE cleric linked to Somalia's powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill Pope Benedict XVI for his controversial comments about Islam.

Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin urged Muslims to find the pontiff and punish him for insulting the Prophet Mohammed and Allah in a speech that he said was as offensive as author Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses.

"We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion," he said in Friday evening prayers.

"Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim," Malin, a prominent cleric in the Somali capital, told worshippers at a mosque in southern Mogadishu.


How about this from Jimbo's side of the world....


JPost.com » International » Article


Sep. 16, 2006 17:23
Saudi Arabia's grand mufti: Pope's comments lies
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia


Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority, Grand Mufti Abdul-Aziz al-Sheik, said in remarks published Saturday that the pope's comments on Islam were "all lies."

"These are all lies. The prophet (Muhammad), peace be upon him, came as a mercy to the world," the daily al-Riyadh newspaper quoted al-Sheik as saying.

He said the pontiff's remarks showed reconciliation between religions was impossible.

"Everybody should know by now that all claims about religions' reconciliation have just been proven to be lies in reality," al-Sheik said. "How can they think of reconciliation while insulting Islam and the prophet?"


I can't wait for them to get rid of the pope THEN the Islamic freedom fighters will stop. Sure they will....

And Nero fiddles while Rome burned...

 

[Roy]

RE: How Terrorism changed (your) the World

Jim, I agree 100% with you that the pope’s comments have been taken way, way out of context by many Muslims.

Pope Benedict is the Catholic Church’s leading theologian. He is a brilliant scholar, and his remarks concerning the Prophet Mohammed were only a quote taken from the 14th century. He was addressing a group of fellow scholars and theologians.

That being said, and considering the misinterpretation of his words, and how they were meant to illustrate his point, has clearly upset the Islamic world.

If I were his advisor, I would urge him very strongly to stand up and apologize, even though he shouldn’t have to, if only to demonstrate the sanctity and humility of his office as pope.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

RE: How Terrorism changed (your) the World

Roy,
I strongly disagree that the pope should apologize! Has it come down to every religious leader now needs to follow the rules of Islam, must not speak regarding the history of Islam on fear of violence? I haven't even seen anyone disputing what he said other than the Grand Mufti saying it was all lies. I sit at the computer and listen to my former buddies on the left talk about Bush fascism when real fascism is right in front of them! Is the pope no longer allowed to speak the truth because the fear of violence? And when he apologizes do you really think this will help? Seriously? When Rushdie apologized did they resind the fatwah? NO, He is still in hiding! The cartoonists are still in hiding. When hundreds of thousands riot around the world because free people say or write something about the Muslim prophet and threaten to kill these people because they do not follow the rules of their religion we are facing fascists! Ones that behead you when you disagree. Say that the Muslims are violent and they burn down your churches and threaten to kill you to prove you wrong.
His words weren't misinterpreted. They were purposefully used to intimidate. Just as the cartoons, which were published months before the riots, were used. In fact, other faked cartoons were added by Danish Muslim clerics to incite further riotiing! They want a Caliphate and they are gaining steam.
We can sit hear bitching about Bush but he didn't cause the bombing yesterday in Thailand killing 6 and injuring 50. Or the other 3 in Narathiwat Thailand the day before. Militant Muslims did and it had nothing to so with Bush.
Last weeks bombing in India had nothing to do with Bush. It had everything to do with militant Muslims. 300,000 dead and more coming every minute in Sudan! 300,000 with another million right around the corner, killed and waiting to be killed because they are not Muslims and we sit here and call Bush names. Do I really need to go on? And what happens when they find the murderers BEFORE they can set off a bomb? Conspiracy theories on how the government set them up. Bin Laden and buddies say they are going to attack america. Sets up terrorist camps to train people. Attempt to blow it up world trade center and fails. Admits to trying. Blows up a couple of embassies and sends videos out bragging about it. Blows up a navy ship and sends out videos bragging about it and showing how he does it. Hijacks planes and gets to finish the world trade center gig that they tried 8 years before. Brags about it and sends vidoes out showing how he did it with interviews with the hijackers! After all this we still have people on this forum that say GEORGE BUSH DID IT!

They continue to tell us what they are going to do and we ignore it. We play politics. We say that if we apologize it will go away. You are an extremely intelligent man, do you really believe it? They say that they want to kill us and make the world Islamic. I see that they are killing more people every year than even the most evil George Bush could ever hope to and I see more areas of the world becoming extreme Muslim. So what I see matches with what they are saying they are going to do!

Last thing to a long post. Roy, I have always liked you because you stuck by your beliefs and fight for them. For the most part you don't take any sh*t. You would have no problem if someone dared you to stand in Times Square and yell "George Bush, Bill Clinton and Pope Benedict are homosexual pedophiles!" I dare you to do the same in Jakarta but replace the name with Mohammed. I will even give you a break from that insane challenge and just say do it in Lovina. And if you don't want to do it, which I don't blame you, then I want you to think about why, without rationalizing. Why can you say anything you want about the pope, Buddha, prophets and spirits of any other religion and not be concerned? You could piss on a bible in the street and not have to be worried over anything other than perhaps a police ticket for public urination but try that with a koran. Live Free or Die, Give me liberty or give me death, so what has happened with all of us to forget these things that made western culture great?

 

[Roy]

RE: How Terrorism changed (your) the World

OK Jim, let’s try to take this all one step at a time, and without anger or emotion.

You write:

“They say that they want to kill us and make the world Islamic.”

Who are the “they” you write of? “They” my friend are the fanatics, and those “they” do NOT represent Islam.

Jim, what is this?

Last thing to a long post. Roy, I have always liked you because you stuck by your beliefs and fight for them. For the most part you don't take any sh*t. You would have no problem if someone dared you to stand in Times Square and yell "George Bush, Bill Clinton and Pope Benedict are homosexual pedophiles!" I dare you to do the same in Jakarta but replace the name with Mohammed.

Why did you write this? Is there anything in what I've written in the past an indicator that I would write anything like that?

You also ask,

Live Free or Die, Give me liberty or give me death, so what has happened with all of us to forget these things that made western culture great?

The answer my friend is not “blowing in the wind” but rather, the answer is money, power and control. I have no doubts that our forefathers are not rolling in their graves, but likely are spinning like tops.

As for the pope, he has no choice but to apologize. I have no doubt that he will, as he obviously understands that within his role as pontiff, he is obligated to propagate peace in all the world. Even though his words have been misconstrued, he has no other choice. Stay tuned...as I am certain he will issue a public apology.

 

[Thorsten]

RE: How Terrorism changed (your) the World

The pope should apologise – for what?

To tell you the truth, usually I don’t care much for statements of this pope or any other before, but my personal opinion due the doctrine of Catholic Church is not asked at this point.

Josef Ratzinger or Benedict XVI is an intellectual and historical theorist of Christian belief, his philosophical interpretations of historical data in context to God and belief are sometimes constructed very complicated, not easy to follow on first sight and without some background knowledge hard to understand for somebody who is not so familiar with theological thesis of the Catholic Church.
This is sometimes the problem with intellectuals, they are mostly so complicated that they don’t reach the average people anymore, but he was also not talking in front of a TV camera, he was talking to theological students and scholars, a qualified audience for that matter, so he was presuming a special comprehension for the topic.
I don’t know, who of you was able to read his lecture in front of the theological faculty of the University of Regensburg in original (in German), I read it and I doubt that it will be an easy task to translate this speech into English, Turkish, Arabian or any other language without extended explanations.

Here is the problem, nobody in the Muslim world seems to understand or even try to understand what the essence of his lecture was really, take one sentence out of every context and create another hatred atmosphere.
The shame is the irresponsible behaviour of Islamic clerical leaders, agitating the masses by presenting knowingly or not a wrong image, strengthen unnecessary the controversy to justify their own claim on absolute autocratic leadership.
The pope was right, when he pointed on the difficulty to get into a dialogue with the Islam, but he was wrong when he attributed this to the lack of belief in the West, when he was criticising that we are only seeking for answers in modern science nowadays and are excluding God and belief in our estimation toward common sense, it’s certainly not our lack of common sense which makes this dialogue difficult, for me it’s the lack of every kind of tolerance and the refusal to discuss or even to consider a different point of view by the Islamic leaders.
I don’t blame the uneducated herds of religious fanatics in Karachi, Cairo or Ankara for this unjustified outrage, they don’t know it better, but when even moderate, Islamic intellectuals are blowing into the same horn, then we will know where the journey will lead us.

Yes, an apologise would be appropriate, how about an apologise by Mr. Ali Bardakoglu, the Turkish president of administration for religious affairs, who caused this avalanche when he had to admit the next day, that he was not even reading the speech of Benedict XVI ???

 

[tintin]

RE: How Terrorism changed (your) the World

I am certainly not here to defend the "Pope-God Father" (no pun intended), but, as Roy reminded us, Pope Benedic was addressing a group of scholars on a very well defined topic. To make his points, he was quoting some XIV Century Moslem philosophers. Obviously, some extremist contemporary Moslems took his statements purposely out of context, to steer the s**t. And since you don't expect the unwashed masses (on BOTH sides, I may add) to understand or to want to understand these "subtleties," the results were predictable.

That some a*****e Mullahs take advantage of such situation is not surprising. We have our share of similar lunatics: in the US, for example, we must put up with the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson spitting out their poison and inanities, and the tens of millions of their followers. And of course, I cannot forget our "#1" who talks to his "Father" who his higher than his own father (which may be OK) but says that God talks back to him. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Given that the "Pope-God Father" is supposedly a man of peace and compassion, he should appologize for having (apparently) offended some fanatic retards.

Anyway, I thought this string was about how 9/11 has personally affected your life?[/i]

 

[Roy]

Thorsten, I’m very glad you are not on the pontiff’s payroll. Just an hour or so ago he did do what he had to do....and what I predicted he would do...which was to offer a public apology.

 

[Sanurian]

I remember jokes about popes when I lived in Australia. A perennial one-liner was that "The Pope is a Dope". Nothing's changed. The current one is just another example.

Sorry Roy, because you believe he's something special...maybe you were indoctrinated a bit when you dabbled in becoming a priest or whatever it was, at least theological studies of some kind.

And who said?:

...The pope should apologise – for what?...

I suggest for being an insensitive idiot. And he's done that? Now that's progress, especially from anyone in the Vatican.


:evil:

 

[Roy]

Phil wrote:

I suggest for being an insensitive idiot.

Thank you Phil for finally writing something I can't offer an argument.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Allthough some protesters went to the streets in Indonesia, the comments in the Jakarta post are these:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailnew ... A01&irec=0

Page may move around so here some quotes:

Muslim leaders in Indonesia bemoaned the pope's comments, saying he should have been more sensitive when discussing the issue.

"Next time the pope should be more thoughtful when making statements," Muslim scholar Azyumardi Azra told The Jakarta Post on Saturday.

Azyumardi said Benedict's statement reflected the rocky Muslim-Christian relations in the past. However, this conflict should not renewed, he said, considering the current fragile relations between the Islamic world and the West after George W. Bush declared his war on terror.

Former Muhamadiyah chairman Ahmad Syafii Maarif said Muslims should be cool-headed and examine what the pope said in its entire context.

"Whatever the circumstances, he as a pope should not have said things like that," he told AFP.

Al Maschan Musa, who heads the main chapter of Indonesia's largest Muslim organization, Nahdlatul Ulama, called the Pope's statement "regrettable" but declined to comment further, saying that he wanted to first study the entire statement.

Catholic priest Benny Susetyo believed that many Muslims had misunderstood the pope's remarks. He doubted that those making angry comments had read the entire speech.

Benny blamed the media for failing to give the complete context of the pope's remarks, which were the root of the misunderstanding. He suggested that people visit http://www.zenit.org to download a full copy of text of the papal address at the university.

 

[Jim Thorpe]

One at a time:

Roy, nothing you have written has suggested you would say that, I apologize if that was implied. I have suggested that you COULD say it in New York if you wanted to, that you have the right to say it and that you could say it with little ramifications. I am also strongly suggesting that you COULDN'T say something like that in Jakarta without ramifications. Those ramifications being a beating or death. The "they" I speak of is not a minority fanatics, the grand Mufti of S.A is one of these people demanding that you and I follow the rules of the Muslim religion or violence will ensue. The leading Arab newspaper in England says that this may lead to war. While it is a minority that actually does the acts against innocents, it is not a small minority that believes they should be done. Look at the world wide polls. Scroll through what is happening around the world.
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ ... f39edffe7b
Are there enough of these pictures to maybe start thinking that "they", these people ARE starting to represent Islam?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 75,00.html

Regarding the Live Free or Die I was suggesting that if you and I, especially me because I am not living in a Muslim dominated country. But if you and I accept that we now must live by the rules of religion not of our choosing we no longer have liberty.

Thorsten,
You and I agree on this completely but I do think you are being too kind by saying that the Islamic leaders are being irresponsible. I think they are purposefully inciting the rioting to further their religion. How come there are so few Christians Jerusalem? Or anywhere in the middle east? They have been pushed out, killed, or forced to convert (remember the fox news guys just a few weeks ago?). This wave of violence is directed by the omans at the Friday sermons.

Tin-tin, I don't think you can compare the religious leaders of Islam to even the jokes like Robertson, there isn't really a comparison. I don't see Robertson saying that all homosexuals should die. Nor do I see him supporting blowing up a bus load of kids as a proper response to perceived grievances. He may be a fool but he hasn't approved of beheading lately. These are stances that are approved by even MODERATE Muslim clerics. Did you see how Khatami answered the question at Harvard? Death to the homosexuals! One of the things that the pope was discussing is that the Christian religion is able to change with the culture (may be good, may be bad in my opinion) such as the Vatican 2 changes in 1966. So that every christian religion is able to say that parts of the Bible are no longer valid, that they were given by God to man ( who is fallible). Islam, on the other hand, does not allow this. So where the bible says to eat fish on certain days, or take another wife, or kill a blasphemer, that religious community can say that God allows us to be reasoning thinking beings and that we can take some of these teachings and put it in the perspective of time and situation. Islam does not allow that. The koran is the direct, unchangeable book of God.
So to go back to what you are referring to Robertson is joke (Does Falwell even around anymore?) compared to these guys as I don't see anyone running from their sermons, with Robertson's approval, beheading people.

Sanurian, You don't have to believe in the holiness of the pope to see that an apology was wrong. Let's put it in a non religious fairytale way...
Let's say you have the president of Ford motors, Bendict Ratzinger, talking to a group of car designers, experts, etc. He says that the new Toyota seems to using many of the designs from the 1950's and points out specific points. The fins are the exact same size as the 1957 Chevy, the motor is the same motor from the 56 El Dorado Cadillac and the interior is lacking air conditioning. He says this may give them problems down the road in terms of acceptance from the buying community. Well, being the president of a competing religion, er, I mean a competing car company you should expect a little bit of competitive talk and seeing how everything he says is true, well you probably wouldn't have any problems with what he said. But now the president of Toyota somes out and tells owners or Camries, Avalons even old Celicas to attack Ford dealers across the world for saying something true because they didn't like it pointed out that the fins were the same as the 57 chevy, that it didn't have air conditioning and that the engine was a gas guzzling piece of crap. Would that be right? Should the people who have Fords, who for the most part looked at the Toyota and declined purchasing, should they support the Ford president caving in for saying nothing wrong? Not the perfect analogy but similar in my eyes. The pope didn't say anything wrong. He has nothing to apologize. I don't believe he was being an insensitive idiot. My gosh, hundreds dead from cartoons, people in hiding for the rest of their lives because they said something about the Muslims. Rioting and death because the pope made a small comment in a small meeting and HE is the insensitive idiot? I think you may have set the bar too high for the muslim community if they haven't hit that bar yet the pope has....
Bert, thanks for your links, I am happy that the Muslim community in Indonesia have put this incident in it's proper perspective!

Lastly, I don't think the pope has really apologized. Here is what the release said:
"The Holy Father extremely sorry that certain passages of his speech appeared offensive to Muslim believers and were interpreted in a way that does not correspond in any way to his intentions."
He doesn't seem to be taking those words back. Just saying sorry you didn't like them.

 

[Guest]

I am not going to get into religion and talking about the pope, especially in the disrespectful ways some of you look at him on this forum. The Pope is a good person and shall not apologize for something when he meant what he said. Thats like asking Queen Elizabeth not to look so british or something. Jim thorpe is completely right about radical Islam. Remember this is not all of Islam that are doing these things but a select few of fanatics that dont even follow the word in the Koran literally or practice what they preach. See, in the Koran is says that all infidels and occupiers of muslim lands should be destroyed but it also states that inncocent peoples should not be harmed whatsoever. This is my point, that the radical fanatic terrorists like bin laden and zawahari, who I may add is really the top #1 guy now since we havent had any new video of bin laden since October of 2004. That is two years since we have even heard from the guy. There will always be fanatical radicals whether in Islam or on this forum like Sanurian disrespecting someone like the pope. Sanurian, didn't your mommy or daddy ever tell you to treat people with respect. If you can treat the pope with respect then I wonder what you think about the Queen? So far, Jim Thorpe seems like the only one who doesnt have their head in the cereal bowl this beautiful Sunday morning.

 

[Thorsten]

Ratzinger,

When he visited Auschwitz this year, I have seen his speech live in TV, simultaneously translated into German since he held his speech in Italian, I felt irritated in some passages of this speech, not sure how to understand this, but it was quite obvious that Ratzinger was not presenting his home Germany with this visit, he was representing the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church.
Some Jewish organisations were irritated too and criticised this speech, after some exchange and given explanations due the propose of his words the problem was solved – that’s the difference!
I cannot remember riots of Jews in Jerusalem, New York or Berlin, as far as I know no Christian churches have been burnt down due this, no Catholic nun was shot three times into her back (like in Mogadishu now), no Rabbis burnt puppets of the pope somewhere in the streets.

OK, OK, I know this is different when it comes to Islam, so better I apologise in advance for insulting the Islam, I apologise for drinking alcohol, eating pork, I apologise for the bikini girls here in my country (although I like it), hmm, when I think about it, then maybe I better should directly convert to Islam just in case and just like Osama demanded it?
:roll:

 

[Guest]

Bikini clad girls on a beach in germany. Please tell me where in germany you go to a beach and see girls in Bikini's. :lol: :lol:

 

[Bert Vierstra]

OK, OK, I know this is different when it comes to Islam, so better I apologise in advance for insulting the Islam,hmm, when I think about it, then maybe I better should directly convert to Islam just in case and just like Osama demanded it?

I think everyone should take take not to simplify and not to polarize (watch the media!!)

 

[Guest]

Well, after all it looks like he did say something that he thought deemed any apology to muslims. My mistake, i guess the Pope makes mistakes too. :shock:

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Rafeal,
Maybe I am cutting hairs but I don't really see it as an apology and neither does the Muslim Brotherhood and now Hamas, who are demanding another, better apology. Read those words again, he says he is sorry that his words APPEARED offensive. He doesn't apologize for the words themselves. Reminds me how the leaders of Hamas said that they condemn attacks on innocents. When asked if how they can say this and not condemn attacks on children in buses they said that the children of Jews aren't innocents. While you and I can blunder in our speech, the language of diplomacy is an art in it's self. The pope purposely used those words in his "almost" apology.

 

[Guest]

Jim,
I see what you mean. i quickly read on BBC.com and it said Pope apologizes. Pope appologize to muslims, not in this lifetime. What bastards (BBC)! :shock: I am not a politician or in policy work although i have many friends who are in politics and policy and I am surrounded by them working in DC. Sen. Allen (VA) is a good friend of mine I am also good friends with Sen. McCain and others, hopefully he runs for president. John would be a great president and military thinker, unlike mr. failed oil man and president.

 

[dawnofjedi]

I think, on this beautiful Sunday afternoon here in NYC, I am going to have to really agree with mr. Jim Thorpe on these issues. The Pope did not indeed apologize, and I believe he has no need to. People should be free to openly discuss issues and perspectives without fear of violent suppression.

I would just amend, however, especially in the first entry by Jim Thorpe, that we should be referring specifically to Islamic extremists, and not Muslims in general. There is a huge portion of the world's Muslim population that abhors the extremist point of view, and they are kind, decent people. However, the pervasiveness and dominance of extremist thinking in certain regions and groups is indeed very alarming. We see this broadly demonstrated through local population support for extremist ideological groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, to the Taliban, Shiite Militias in Iraq and Lebanon, and the broader Al-Qaeda network. And this extends to certain governments as well. Anyone who is trying to say that Bush and the Pope are responsible for the insanity of the world today should really just listen to the words of the leaders of any of these extremist Islamic organizations, that condone the often gruesome actions of their followers in the name of the divine. Maybe the Pope had a point when he said that violence cannot go hand in hand with God.

I do not believe the Pope should be apologizing for his comments, because a dialogue on different religious perspectives must be open to historical criticisms, especially in the context of an audience group of theologians. It is absolutely shocking to see the violence and rage that can erupt in the Islamic extremist world over misconstrued words. This has too many echoes of the violence that erupted over the cartoons. It is scary that so many are being influenced to get together and foment this ignorant violence and bloodshed.

Now I would like to further point out that much of the hatred towards America and the Pope is happening in places like Afghanistan where someone still can be legally condemned to death for converting, even without the Taliban in power. We have recently seen outrage in Pakistan over legislation that would protect the virtually non-existent rights of women who have been raped. Where an Iranian government dominated by Islamic hardliners have an open policy to purge the educational system of liberal professors.

And now I look at my own society here in NYC, the melting pot of America. Free thinking people, some enjoying life, most working hard, and people generally doing their best to respect other citizens. Of course there is plenty of hippocrisy here as well, but bottom line, you can be what you want to be over here. And although I will point out here that I strongly believe that America's ill-guided strategy in Iraq is positively contributing to the pervasiveness and acceptance of the Islamic extremist ideology, this does not by any means absolve the offense of those who are truly responsible for its violent perpetration. I believe the core issue is the Islamic religious leaders fanning the flames of hatred down upon the masses. Masses who because of the restrictive societies they live in have no choice of what to believe in the first place.

So I'll just say in conclusion, the Pope should be allowed to speak without having to apologize. He is entitled to his rights and opinion as a human being. As am I. As is every Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, and everyone else. We are all human beings. We should not be compelled to our beliefs through intimidation.

OM MANI PADME HUM

 

[Jim Thorpe]

Dawnofjedi,
I bow to your superior wordsmithing. You said it so much better than I can...Well said.