getting married out of indonesia

[drbruce]

In order for the marriage to be recognized as Islamic you need to have a Muslim ceremony through the Kantor Agama. Then you'll be recognized as married by the Muslim community. That being said, my wife and I were married for 9 years before we had a Muslim ceremony. If you are serious about doing all this, you should check it out thoroughly. Issues like how your wife's family is going to react to this if you are not married as Muslims. We had some problems during our first year of marriage because of some hard feelings from some family members about my wife marrying outside the faith. If you're not familiar with Islam, think about Jews and Catholics in the States. Many of the more conservative members of those faiths also look sideways on cross-marriage.

It is quite easy to convert to Islam, although, in my personal opinion, it is not something that I would do in order to get married. My conversion to Islam came about many years after our marriage and for reasons completely unrelated to it. Talk to your wife and see how she feels about all this. Religion can be easy to pass over when you want to get married, but religious issues will arise later on if you plan on living in Indonesia.

 

[waves]

but how could she own the property without a prenump? and i have here parents blessing to get married.

 

[waves]

does anybody have a phone number of a good notary?

 

[FreoGirl]

Hi waves, welcome to the forum. I'm a bit confused by your questions re a pre-nup.

My understanding of a prenup is that you essentially state who owns what before you go into a marriage, and then put conditions into the prenuptual contract that helps you determine who gets what if the marriage ends in divorce. This is usually to do with divorce, not death, which has it's own inheritance laws and that's what a Will is for.

The idea of a pre-nup is usually when one of the parties to the marriage has more assets than the other. They are protecting those assets in case the marriage fails.
The concept of a pre-nup even depends on where you are from. For instance in Australia they are useless as toilet paper as 1. they are easily challenged in the courts, and 2. Australian family law is a bit fairer when it comes to splitting up assets on divorce.

In Indonesia, foreigners with assets who marry locals without assets are encouraged to take out prenups - to protect their assets from gold diggers.

If you are married in the USA, under US law, then I would imagine that your pre-nup would also need to be drawn up in the US. I don't think it would have any bearing on Indonesian law. If you are married in the US, you have to get divorced in the US, so your prenup would come up there.

Your US marriage is legal in Indonesia as long as you register it. To do that (if you are going to live there) you should arrange for a translation of your marriage certificate before you leave the US for Indonesia. Your Indonesian consulate or embassy will do that for you..
I've been married to an Indonesian for nearly 5 years, and we registered it at our local consulate here in Australia.

The confusion about marriage is often around the difference between a legal marriange and a religious marriage. In Indonesia, the locals often see the religious marriage as the 'real' marriage - when in fact it is not the legal one at all! The way many go is to have the legal marriage at home, and then the religious one in Indonesia - although I had both the legal and religious (Muslim) marraige here in Australia.

For me, I preferred having the legal marriage here in Australia - it means that I am protected by Australian marriage and divorce laws - which believe me a are a sight better than the deal women get in Indonesia!

Lastly, you seem pretty stressed by all of this. Please don't rush into marriage for all the wrong reasons. You have the rest of your lives together, no need to rush. Check it all out properly first - if she loves you she will wait. If her visa is expiring, then she can go home and you can arrange for her to come back on a prospective fiance visa.

Good luck

 

[Poli]

If you were getting married in Indonesia as a Muslim, then there wouldn't be any need for a pre-nup, because the "buku nikah" (which is the marriage book given to Muslims) states that what is owned prior to the marriage remains the property of each individual, it does not become joint property upon marriage. It is only the things acquired after marriage that you would have to worry about. Can't understand why you are so worried about a pre-nup, and reading your postings makes it sound as if that is the most important thing to you, not that you are supposedly getting married to someone you want to be with.

You don't appear to have looked into the religious side at all, because the issue will crop up once you live in Indonesia, no hiding your head in the sand over it and you will be the one expected to convert, not your fiancee/wife.

What is your fiancee's great rush to get married anyway? Is she pregnant and you aren't the father? Wouldn't be the first time for a rushed wedding with an bridegroom who didn't know the facts.........

 

[waves]

i dont think some of you understand what i am asking. the prenump/ seperation of property is for her to be able to own land since a bule can not own land. is that not correct? so im sure some of you bule married to an indonesian girl should know that. and as you can see there is a rush so her visa does not expire and she can stay in the states with me,but this wedding has been planned for some time now and we did not know about the prenump just untill very late from an indonesian friend living in the states now.

 

[waves]

the prenump is so we can buy a house in bali and she can own it since im a bule i cannot own land. is that correct?

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Yes.

 

[mimpimanis]

i dont think some of you understand what i am asking. the prenump/ seperation of property is for her to be able to own land since a bule can not own land. is that not correct?

Hi Waves

You do not need to have the prenup in order for your wife to own the property. The prenup is to protect you, should you divorce and she tries to keep the property, which you have had to purchase in her name.

 

[Sanurian]

Just one other thing, waves

...we would like to buy a house...

You might find that once you've married that your Indonesian wife can't buy land, etc, in her name (because she's married a non-Indonesian).

I know - sounds stupid.
The next step? Try and find some definitive information about this "issue", if you can.

Maybe you can get married and divorced really quickly so your wife retains her rights in her own country. I'm not sure how that works either.

Like others have said - don't rush into anything...

8)

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Just one other thing, waves

...we would like to buy a house...

You might find that once you've married that your Indonesian wife can't buy land, etc, in her name (because she's married a non-Indonesian).

Unless you have a prenup, that's why he asked anyway...

 

[mimpimanis]

Wow! Am I getting this wrong or are you saying that an Indonesian woman, when she marries a foreigner - can not buy land in Indonesia????

I know lots of couples in Lombok who have bought land in the name of the Indonesian wife without problem so I am confused by this :?:

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Yes they can. But....

In case there is a legal dispute of some sort, they can run into problems...

Because marriage is a legal unity, and since foreigners cannot own land...

Has been discussed before in this section somewhere...

 

[Sanurian]

Hi, mimpimanis

...Wow! Am I getting this wrong or are you saying that an Indonesian woman, when she marries a foreigner - can not buy land in Indonesia????

Yes...maybe...maybe not.
Check out the "new rules" (if you can find them).

That's what some local lawyers have told us. My wife is not exactly happy about that. Can't blame her. Why shouldn't she be able to buy land in her own country just because she married a foreigner ?

Anyhow, if somebody knows something more concrete about this, we'd both like to know.
"Mysterious", abstruse interpretations and arcane knowledge are widespread in this glorious archipelago. Part of the fun of living here.

I just wish there was more evidence that the right hand knows what the left hand is doing, more of the time.

:?

 

[drbruce]

Hey Philip,

Things are not always what they seem. Or over here, generally not what they seem. We married almost 18 years ago so pre-nups and all that we're not something that we even thought of (although I probably wouldn't have done it even if I had known about it, as there was nothing to protect for either of us in those days). Anyway, we did check about five years ago with an attorney about the status of the houses here in Bali (this was pre-Sumbawa). He said that were we to divorce, my wife would have to sell the houses and split the proceeds. Hmm, That was interesting, I thought. Anyway, we didn't give it much thought after that.

When we moved to Sumbawa shortly thereafter, we bought a fair amount of land and build a few houses. We used notaries for all these transactions. No one ever said anything about the issue of my wife having an expat husband. Nor did the camat who was following our activities fairly closely.

Now in the last few months, we have been selling off our land and houses in Sumbawa. Again the notary didn't say anything or ask me to do anything during the first few transactions. However, yesterday, my wife went to a notary just down the street from us in Singaraja to get some documents done pertaining to us selling our remaining house and property in Sumbawa. This notary told my wife that I needed to come in and sign a document stating that I was in agreement with the selling of the house and the property. She said that my wife could buy property, but that I couldn't inherit it. So what then? It would have to be sold.

Puzzled me for a minute - well more than a minute. But according to her, I am legally entitled to half the proceeds as the husband, even though there is nothing on any of the documents relating to me, so I needed to sign off on the sale otherwise I could contest it in court. She was surprised that the notary in Sumbawa hadn't had me do the same, but she did mention that it might be because they have few dealings with foreigners.

So, the lesson? Who knows? We're going to consult a lawyer to see what the issues are should my wife die suddenly. I just had an email from a fellow who bought my book and said, "It seems that you live in the Rabbit Hole and enjoy it. Far too complicated for me, I'll just rent a house and play it safe." As you say, this is all part of the fun of living here.

I'll let you know if we get anything any more concrete in the future.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Its simple.

Indonesian property acquired through inheritance by persons or other legal entities normally not capable of owning property, must be sold within a year.

It is stated so, in the Indonesian Law. Official.

 

[mimpimanis]

Is there an age limit for inheriting.

For instance if somthing was to happen to Made, do I inherit or our son? I assume if its me I can give the property to my son?

 

[drbruce]

Law's never really simple, Bert. If it was we wouldn't need so many lawyers.

I have a son who's a lawyer and tells me many stories about how the law is regularly manipulated, gotten around, reinterpreted and subverted. That's in the States where supposedly law rules the land. Happens all the time in the States, in Pakistan, in Indonesia, in Bali.

It's nice to hear that what my lawyer said was the law is the law, but just because it's official, well... I saw a guy get stopped today in a rahasia. I happen to know him. No license, no vehicle registration. He drove along on his way because he had a few rupiahs with him. The kid behind him with none had his bike confiscated. His dad, a friend of mine, had to go and deal with it later. There are always ways to get around things. I just happen to be one of those who believes in playing by the rules of the game as long as I know them. As you said in another thread, it would be nice if the laws were easily available in both Indonesian and English. It would certainly clear up a lot of misconceptions.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Well you are lucky.

A nice book in English is available:

http://www.equinoxpublishing.com/srirolaw/default.htm

And that's where I get a lot from...

You can borrow my (2007) copy in a few weeks

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Oh, yes how law is finally put into action is another story.

I know a vague gossip story of a Balinese who's foreign husband died, and "they" simply took all, even the car. And this was Buleleng.