Foreigners as ATM Machine

freelancer

New Member
Jul 4, 2006
5
0
1
Cardiff, Wales
RE: Personal Stories and real people

I have some questions:

When do the Balinese see you as a person and not an ATM machine?

When do they give real advices and not just to their relatives' shops or businesses?
 

rhondo

Member
Jun 18, 2005
51
0
6
California
:shock: It is pretty easy to just be seen as a Walking ATM Machine in the third world in general. Its a tough call how not to be seen this way. If I can help someone with a medical issue that seems pressing I have no problem doing that. Do not expect any appreciation or recognition , do it because it is a good thing to do and you want to do it. :( I alsotry to do some nice things for other people knowing they have significantly less, but I only do them if I want to do them without looking in the rear view. It is unfortunate, maybe just human nature, but disingenuis people are every where and lieing can be seen as normal behavior. So if you give just to give dont get hung up on the outcome or you will be dissappointed most of the time. It takes a little bit of getting used to as often it ends feeling empty, if I'm attached to the outcome. Mostly its give and take ....you give they take....thank goodness once in while you stumble on nice people and they are appreciative of your giving. :p
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
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Ubud, Bali
Freelancer, welcome to the forum. Your entry was a bit provocative, but understandable, as everyone who visits Bali, or makes Bali their home, has their own experiences, and thus forms their own opinions.

Bert, our forum host, replied in what we have come to know over the years as a classic “Bertism.” His point however, is dead on right.

Many of us who are members on this forum are either Indonesian, Balinese or otherwise, or foreigners who have made Bali and other areas within Indonesia home. Many of us foreigners are married to Indonesians, Balinese or other, and also have families here with our spouses.

Of our Indonesian members, several are Balinese, and like my wife, take great exception to being accused of considering foreigners as an ATM machine, or incapable of offering honest advice not directed to her own gain.

None of us be we Indonesian or otherwise, are so naïve as to embrace Bali as perfect, and you will find some very intense discussions about the pros and cons of Bali and Indonesia in active strings, and also in the archives.

You might want to consider this in your future posts. Blatant negative stereotyping of the Balinese will not get you far on this forum. That’s just some friendly advice.

Once again, welcome to the forum and enjoy your time spent here.
 

matsaleh

Super Moderator
May 26, 2004
2,479
151
63
Legian, Bali
Re: RE: Foreigners as ATM Machine

Dyah said:
in the third world in general.
Don´t we have just one world???
You're absolutely right Dyah. A more appropriate description might have been, "in developing nations".
 

freelancer

New Member
Jul 4, 2006
5
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Cardiff, Wales
Well, I do understand what everyone is saying. I tend not to generalise but merely pointing out the problems I've encountered by talking to people while I was in Bali this June.

If I in any way offended anyone or their loved ones, I sincerely apologise.

But the reason I pointed out this problem is because after talking to many people (locals, Indos, foriengers), I've come to realise that Bali has a very deceiving character. Most first-timers told me that they think that Balinese people are friendly and peaceful. But little do they know that they are able to act like bullies to the non-Balinese Indonesians, namely Javanese, espeically after the 2002 bombing.

They would say terrible things behind your back or even in front of you, be envious or jealous, even though they act like they like you and ask you how you are all the time. I wonder, for those who Balinese families, do you really think that they see you as one? I've met one German girl who is married to a Balinese guy, she told me that even though she can speak and understand them and they call her a Balinese, she would still feel that she is an outsider.

I'm not trying to be provokative or offensive, I'm only trying to understand how it works and if the 'image' matches up to the 'reality'. Are Balinese for real??
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
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36
Ubud, Bali
Freelancer, as a betting man, I would wager on two bets. One is that this last June was your first trip to Bali, and another wager would be that you are young, no older than maybe 26 or so.

So, be honest and tell me, how did I do?

Another wager I might take is that on your trip to Bali this past June, you hung out in southern Bali, perhaps Kuta or Legian, and you did not venture into the heart of Bali. I’d also bet that you can’t tell the difference between a Balinese and another Indonesian who maybe telling you he or she is Balinese. That comment is not to knock other Indonesians, but facts being facts, Kuta is a big draw for some Indonesians with less than good intentions.

If you’ve come to the conclusion that Bali has a “very deceiving character” then your experiences here seem to me to be very limited, and maybe you are spending your time in the wrong places in Bali. If you spend all your time in the belly of the beast, then I guess that’s all you know about the beast.

“Are Balinese for real?” What kind of question is that?

For the record, as I can’t let this go by without comment, the Balinese exhibited remarkable constraint after both the 2002 and 2005 bombings on Bali. Clearly, you were not here for either of those events, and equally clear, you are forming your opinions based on limited, or actually, no accurate information.

Your perception of how the Balinese treated non Balinese Indonesians after the bombings, and even until now, are way, way off base, as inaccurate as can be, and frankly, boring to read. You obviously have a lot to learn about Bali, and I hope one day you have your eyes and mind opened.
 

Bert Vierstra

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
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Homeless
Freelancer....

You wrote this in your introduction to me:

I joined this website so that I can ask the people who are living in Bali about their opinions on that place and the changes they observed because I'm writing an article about the changes from various issues in Bali during the recent years.

How do see the changes until now?
 

freelancer

New Member
Jul 4, 2006
5
0
1
Cardiff, Wales
Um... Interesting responses.

Clearly, with my questions, you are offended greatly.

Clearly, this is not where I can get an objective opinion on Bali.

In my third visit to Bali, this June, I've talked to many people, not only visitors, travellers, expats, but also Javanese, Balinese, Sumatrans and other Indonesians. They were the ones who led me to the questions. Clearly, you are the ones who cannot see pass what the reality is in Bali.

Child abuse/protitution, poverty, change of mentality deriving from wealth, taxing, selling lands, consumerism, going against the Tri Hita Karna, the filthy mountains and sea, are you guys blind? Are those my imagination and those people who told me about it?

Clearly, asking the questions that I've been is a waste of my time and yours.

Does expats mean patronising too?
 

rhondo

Member
Jun 18, 2005
51
0
6
California
:shock: FREELANCER YOU DONT HAVE TO LOOK VERY FAR JUST LOOk AT YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR. That is something you can affect. You are just baiting people for what reason I dont know. People are people are people wherever you go, some are genuine some are disingenuis. Other people have differing experiences than you had in Indonesia ;perhaps they have a different attitude than you. :cry: I'm sorry you are so bitter but see what you want to see. Never mind what other people do , you have little influlence over them . Worry about your own attitude and behavior, perhaps than you will attract different people into your life and your experience will be differ. :idea:
 

Tony

Member
Aug 24, 2005
69
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6
Maui, Hawaii
Dear freelancer,

Your post to this thread and to the "who ruined paradise" thread prompt me to share with you an experience I had last december. Allow me to preface my story by telling you that when I made my first trip to Bali in the late 70's/early 80's, my reaction was overwhelmingly negative. Growing up on the beaches of america's east coast, word was just beginning to filter back to the surfing community there about a distant and exotic island called Bali, where waves were perfect and uncrowded, life was quite inexpensive and the people lovely & welcoming.

While the waves I found to be quite excellent, I was overwhelmed by what I percieved at the time thru western eyes as the grim living conditions, the pollution, overcrowding, constant harrassment by touts & hawkers whenever you set foot on the street. I became quite ill during the first week with a debillitating bout of ameobic dystentary which further colored my perceptions about the place.

That said, I have been returning regularly ever since. My love for the place has grown exponentially with each visit. Never have I travelled anywhere that provides me endless opportunities for fasciation, magical encounters and yes, even regular opportunities to be appalled that Bali offers.

Now..back to your human ATM question...

In december, Putu drove me to a remote village in West Tabanan to inspect some parcels of land. Rain season had already begun and the day was grey and wet as we trodded thru rice paddies all afternoon. Upon returning to the car, poor Putu discovered that he had lost the car key...probably dropped accidentaly into the flooded sawas during our hike. As we searched on hands and knees thru the tall grass and rice fields a farmer passed, returning to the village from his work in the paddies. He spoke no english, and Putu explained to him what had happened. He immediately droped to his knees and began to help us search. In a matter of minutes, several dozen members of the village subak, their wives and children included, all joined us to help search. Some brought us little packets of rice & vegetable to eat, water to drink, even umbrellas to shelter us from the steady rain. We all searched for over two hours but no key was ever found. Putu explained that several offers to stay in homes in the village had been offered if needed, as were rides back to Seminyak, a two hour drive away.

A short time later, a young balinese man in his early 20's pulled up on a motor bike. I jokingly refer to him now as the "village car thief" as this man had some skill as an auto mechanic. He quickly produced a screwdriver and safety pin from under the seat of his bike and proceeded to hotwire the ignition of our car, much to Putus delight (Putu feared he had somehow displeased the gods to have had such misfortune visited upon him and I could tell he was feeling shame for what he perceived as letting me down by stranding me). This young man got the car started in just a manner of minutes, much to everyone's delight. Gap toothed, beetle-stained smiles appeared on every face at the sound of the motor kicking to life. By this time, everyone gathered was drenched to the bone, covered in mud. Daylight was beginning to fade. I made several attempts to offer money to those who had assisted us, fed us and tried to keep us dry. Everyone...and I mean everyone refused to accept my money, even the young "car thief". They all smiled, shook our hands and slowly began to disperse and head back towards their homes. The unconditional assistance we received that day...the kindness of strangers stays with me to this day and I smile even now as I type.

The moral to this story is that blanket preconceptions never seem to quite fit, especially in Bali. As Roy has pointed out, in the resort areas, people have settled there to make money from tourists, many of them Indonesians from outside of Bali. There is a different attitude on the streets of Kuta than what you might find waiting just outside the main resort towns. I think the majority of visitors to Bali form their impressions based on the limited encounters that they have within these tourist ghettos.
 

Ipanema

Member
Aug 19, 2004
444
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Freelancer

Believe me the expats have been very patient and nice to you.

Third visit - when you get to your 30th visit you may have some insight. You asked for opinions of people who live in Bali - I would say the expats are the most qualified to answer your questions as they do look at it from both points of view.

If their answers don't suit you of course you can go to other forums where the most controversial conversations are

How much is a shirt from Melasti markets
Tell me the cheapest hotel to stay
4 nights to go.........
How to u pgrade to Business Class

Do you think you will get an informed opinion from people who don't live there - they are like you and only get there information from what people have told them. Whose to know if those people are telling the truth.
:?:
I don't live in Bali, not married to an Indonesian but have been going since 1981 and I believe in this forum you get honest and informative answers which you can take out of it what you want and then mix it with your own experiences.
 

quirkyartist

New Member
Jun 30, 2006
21
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1
Sydney Australia
If any of you know Sydney....I've always thought that people who base their views of Bali on the Kuta area, are like people who would base a visit to Australia on the Kings Cross area of Sydney. It might be interesting, but it's where the riff-raff hang out.
I've also experienced the ATM behaviour of course, but we seem so very very rich that its a bit understandable. One driver we've known for years became known as Greedy Nyoman for a while, but then he did something so very sweet that he was immediately upgraded to Cheeky Nyoman (he's definitely cheeky!). I hope to see him again next week when I'm in Bali.
 

charlie

Member
Aug 9, 2005
328
0
16
unhappily in sydney
Well then,

relatives' shops or businesses?

Who else would they recommend?? The competition??

When do the Balinese see you as a person and not an ATM machine?


If you don't act like one you won't get treated like one ... you can get treated like an atm anywhere, i get it more in Australia from my own family.

Child abuse/protitution, poverty, change of mentality deriving from wealth, taxing, selling lands, consumerism, going against the Tri Hita Karna, the filthy mountains and sea, are you guys blind? Are those my imagination and those people who told me about it?

Clearly, asking the questions that I've been is a waste of my time and yours.

You didn't mention any of this in your original post so you didn't get answers. If you had asked you would have recieved.

Now, maybe you should start again freelancer and you might get what you wanted in the first place.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
According to Bert, (refer string titled Child Prostitution) “our” freelancer is female. I guess I am a bit surprised at that, but then again, given how the anthropologist Margaret Meade got just about everything she wrote about Bali completely wrong, I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.

In any event, she has made it perfectly clear that she has come here with her mind already made up, and she has a pre-acquired agenda. While she accuses some of us of lacking objectivity, it is she who lacks the clear head, the open eyes and the clear mind.

If I was able to ask her just one question, it would be if on her prior visits to Bali, ostensibly doing research for her supposed article, did she take the time to interview the British Consul to ask him some of her questions. After all, she, (freelancer) is British, and the British Consul here, (as well as all the other Consuls) see the darkest sides of Bali almost every day, at least in so far as their own citizens are concerned.

If I could make one suggestion to freelancer, it would be to take some journalist classes. There she hopefully could learn the importance of objectivity and integrity when writing an article for publication.

As for me, I am not going to waste my time with this “lady” whoever she is. Good luck with your writing career freelancer, as my guess is you’ll be needing a whole lot of it.
 

JAMIE

Member
Apr 20, 2005
428
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16
BERGEN COUNTY NJ USA
Ive thought long and hard on the question freelancer asks in this string .. I deffenanty feel like a walking ATM machine ..in my own home ! Between 2 daughters who feel they can only wear designer clothes , the price of gas and all the things that have gone up becouse of the price of gas I need a money coping machine ..when I go on vaction and toss a couple of buck this way or that becouse I have it to toss , seems like a walk in the park to me . Hey thats my two cents on the subject ..there i go angain throwing money around ..jamie
 

tintin

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2005
2,305
34
48
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Boston, MA, USA
freelancer

I refer to Tony's experience with his lost car keys, which I can tell you is not atypical. Of course, I was never in the same dire situation, but I experienced several situations where people, Balinese, came out of nowhere to help, or see if they could help.

Now, I will tell you a story, which surely could NOT have happened in freelancer’s Kuta, and therefore could have NEVER happened in Bali (accordingto freelancer). I was not involved, but my friend I Nyoman Suarna, a resident of Tenganan, was. Nyoman was not a close friend, but when I dropped by his village on many occasions, I felt warmth and peace in his presence, as we just sat in front of his shop (the one just in front of the front gate, as one enters the village), shooting the breeze, and having a drink, while eating bananas. He loved cockfights (he owned several fighting cocks himself), and on more than one occasion, we did attend fights together . In that respect, I considered him a friend.

Approximately six (or even seven years ago), a week after my arrival in Bali, I was at Tenganan and met him, or rather I first met his wife who was rather gloomy, and then Nyoman. By then, I knew something serious had happened during my winter absence from Bali.

Nyoman recalled his story: his older son, 14-years old, had died in a motorcycle accident few months before. He had collided head-on with a car carrying four French tourists, and driven by one of them. The accident happened in the vicinity of Tenganan, and in no time, as you can appreciate, Nyoman was at the scene. There, he found a large crowd of Balinese, many very excited (I don’t remember if the police was there yet), surrounding the Frenchmen. I can imagine the chaos, the bewilderment of these tourists, and their panic. Nyoman inquired if there had been any witnesses to the accident. Apparently, there were, and he was told that in this blind turn of the road, his son had been practically on the wrong side of the road when he smashed into the front of the Frenchmen’s car.

Nyoman remarked that it was more than often the case that his son was carelessly speeding, and in general was kind of “crazy” the way he drove his cycle. Nyoman added that these Frenchmen were “our guests” and should be treated with respect and justice. Based on what he had just heard, he was sure it was his son’s fault for provoking this accident.

To make a story short. The Frenchmen were let go (they were staying in Candi Dasa). They showed up the next morning at Nyoman’s shop, apologized profusely once more and thanks Nyoman for his integrity: they were on their way that same evening back to France (I am sure they must have thought Nyoman could still change his mind, and they did not want to linger around).

As for me, I remember a while back, one afternoon, having a collision riding my motorcycle on Ubud Main Street. I still maintain that I was in the right (whatever that mean in Bali), as I was riding on the left side of the road, when our two motorcycles collided. There was only few minor scrapes, but mostly mechanical damages. Right away, a large crowd formed around us. Since I tend to get excited easily, the tone rose fast. I was pushed and shoved around. It seemed everybody in Ubud, or at least on Main Street, had been a witness to this accident. Eventually, I ended up paying the other party some money for his damages. But I am sure (I don’t speak Balinese) that several “witnesses” were still inciting, in Balinese, the other motorist to get more money from me.

My question to you, freelancer, is: what incident should I remember? What Bali should I remember?

PS. My friend Nyoman died in 2003.
 

UluwatuWaves

Member
Jun 30, 2006
48
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6
Norfolk, VA at the moment
Whoever "freelancer" may be he/she probally has not travelled to a lot of places where people are much poorer than the poorest Balinese, such as many of the countries in Africa. Wherever a foriegner travels to they should keep an open mind and an open heart or they will not be able to maximise their experiences. There is a quote that I once was told when i was a younger lad than I am now. "Don't hold expectations, have aspirations and you will never be disappointed." i think that means a lot to me because it is a way to live by especially when you are in a developing country such as indonesia. i too have been hassled a lot in south Bali for money or to buy something, but this happens all over the world. You can walk down the street in chinatown, New York and experience the same thing that happens in Bali with people trying to get you to buy something. Does that mean you are a walking ATM, No i dont think so. They just want your business and money, what is wrong with that. Some of the balinese are very savy sellers and negoitatiors so brush up on your bargaining and shopping skills before you go there to get a good deal on whatever you may buy.