Building Advise

Boo

New Member
Aug 11, 2006
28
0
1
Umalas, Bali
Hi All,

Firstly I have been watching this forum for sometime and have actually gained some pretty useful information and also had some great laughs, at your expense
We have purchased some land at Canggu and are currently negotiating with a couple of builders! Has anyone had any dealings or could provide any info on Umah Bali or Tunas Jaya Sanur..

Many Thanks, Boo
 

Boo

New Member
Aug 11, 2006
28
0
1
Umalas, Bali
OOOps :oops:

That should say Building Advice... Its been a long tiring week dealing with builders. I think I need a good drink :!:
 

irma1812

Member
Jan 27, 2004
227
0
16
UK
Hi Boo,

Firstly welcome to the Forum! I can't advice about any builders on Bali as I don't know any, but you are going to supervise this building I hope?
 

Boo

New Member
Aug 11, 2006
28
0
1
Umalas, Bali
Hi Irma

After being involved within the Building Industry here in Adelaide and employing over 50 staff and experiencing the problems we have encountered over the years just thru managing staff and trying to get things right.. We have no alternative but to supervise things ourselves.
:roll:
I can just imagine, my hubby will have us pitch a tent on our land so he doesnt miss a thing, Oh what Joy :!:

Cheers
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
Boo, let me first echo Irma’s warm welcome to the forum!

It seems the topic of building on Bali is one of the top topics that can render the most suggestions and ideas. If you search on this site, you will find quite a lot of posts on this topic.

Having lived here on Bali for a while, I have built two houses, one gallery, and several temples...just for my family, not as a developer. That is provided just for background. It doesn’t make me any more, or any less knowledgeable on this topic than the next poster.

In the states, I never built a bloody thing, but I did restore two 18th century houses in Connecticut, one of them being on the National Register of Historic Places. That was the Hayward House in Colchester, Connecticut. It is also on the Historical American Building Survey, or HABS, which was a “new deal” benefactor during the “Great Depression.” Why they call it “great” is beyond me!

So...my point? My point is that in Bali, one has to put aside some of the building ideas we all learned in our own niche of the West...or OZ. Being in Bali is kinda of like being in Rome, to the extent that the phrase, “when in Rome, do as the Romans” is highly appropriate. In other words, and with all due respect to Australian, or any western builders in Bali...I personally wouldn’t use one at “gun point.”

There are many Balinese and other Indonesian architects and builders who are capable of virtually ANY building project. Many are graduates of prestigious universities, either in Yogya or Bandung.

They are masters at building and have been so for countless centuries. Building in Bali has many unique considerations that should, if not must, be taken into account. Not the least of these things to consider is the fact that when developing a property in Bali for western use, and by a westerner, will in itself create a whole “Pandora’s box” of problems.

Top on my list of “problems” is that you can count on building materials costing at least 20% more in a “bule” project...and that is tough, if not impossible to avoid. The bottom line here is simple, if you’re a bule, and your builder is a bule...the price is higher and that’s it. Second on my list would be your architect and Western builder/contractor’s fee. You can certainly expect that to be way higher than a local’s fee, and by an equally, if not more qualified/talented builder/contractor/architect.

The funny thing is, some of my good expat friends felt “more comfortable” with a Western builder and they built their properties with these builders. Within a few years, all their wood decking was rotted, the roof was leaking, and the only things working well were the plumbing and electric system.

Consider also all the expat, (Western) developed properties and villa neighborhoods recently built in Seminyak (the Yak), and in particular, the way over the top prices they demand for these villas.

If you can afford to over-pay and don’t care....nothing wrong with that. If you want value for your rupiah, I suggest alternate thinking.

I can walk into a villa or house and in a second I know if it was locally or Western designed and built. There is no soul, no life, and no energy in those Western dwellings, and frankly, in my opinion, they don’t belong here. It’s no sweat off of my back that many will disagree with my assessment, as when you come down to it...I don’t live in such a dwelling, so I really don’t care.
 

Boo

New Member
Aug 11, 2006
28
0
1
Umalas, Bali
Hi Roy

Thanks for your comments, the builders I actually asked about in my Post are actually Balinese Companies ran by Balinese and all their designers have come up with some wonderful ideas. :D

I certainly agree with you in the aspect of "when in Rome do as the Romans do"

We have inspected many villas around Bali over the past few months with various builders to inspect their quality of workmanship. It’s certainly been an exercise and an experience to remember. Some of the places we have inspected which had just been completed already had leaking roofs:!: :!:

Even with us being associated within the building industry here in Adelaide for so long, we wouldn’t even dream of undertaking the exercise of putting our methods into practise in Bali. It would just be a disaster waiting to happen. Even climatic conditions make dramatic differences as to the way a home should be built..

Also please note my comment a "home", this is what we are after, not a Villa for rental :!: We have been talking about this since 1998, so we have certainly taken our time about it. We are actually hoping to have a good mix of both Western & Balinese ideas mixed together. Like good Western Bathrooms, as "Starting Blocks" just wont do, when we have lived with western loos, my body isn't as nibble as it was years ago :(

We are due back in Bali in just under two weeks, to start the hard negotiations with our preferred Builders. One of our preferred builders that I listed is Pt Tunas Jaya Sanur, their portfolio is very interesting and they have their own Joinery Company, which we inspected and the quality of workmanship was exceptional (for Bali).

It is a bit hard to swallow the quality of workmanship in Bali, compared to here in Australia. We just have to set our quality ideals a little lower.

I hope I don't annoy the hell out of all you guys, with some of my dumb questions I will be asking.. As I am a Blonde Female!!! (My hubby is trying to keep a low profile, because I embarrass him) :oops: :!: :!:

Cheers Boo :D
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
A blond eh? How about you post your picture as your avatar? :oops:

You mentioned wood joinery in your post. It’s been my experience that wood joinery methods used here are superior to what is used in most other areas of the world. Specifically, the Balinese most often use the time honored techniques of hand dovetailing and mortice and tenon joints. This was taught by the Dutch during their colonial period.

For example, all the door frames and window frames in our new house are constructed of high quality mahogany genus wood, and the joints are mortice and tenon with the tenon going completely through the mortice cut into the adjoining piece and then held by a large wood peg. There is no better way of constructing window and door frames than that. It is the same technique one would find used in the ancient houses of Europe and the US.

Today, in the states anyway, this method is way too time consuming, thus way too costly. There the use of nails prevails, and sheetrock is common for walls, and plastic for exterior siding. Many new homes there are partially pre-fabricated in factories as modules and then assembled on site. One can be pretty certain that none of them will ever show up on any historical registers!
 

Boo

New Member
Aug 11, 2006
28
0
1
Umalas, Bali
Hi Roy,

Most of the woodwork we have seen is quite good quality. It is the finishing quality that is a bit substandard. The other thing I have seen
is the use of nails where screws should be used. Hence, the nails work loose after a while.

When I say quality, not so much about structual quality, but rather the finishing quality, which is a let down.

In 1993, we (hubby) & I inspected some of the pre-fabricated companies, producing the "throw together houses", very interesting, but not to our liking. We just couldnt beleive our eyes. Specially how they employ the Hamish People, that was an eye opener, the Hamish using power tools and modern technology then they go home at night to their homes, where they have no modern facilities :!: :!:

About the photo, I was thinking about that. However, I wouldn't like to be walking around Bali and someone come up to us and make comment about my overly dumb questions I will be posting. :oops: My poor hubby will have to crawl under the nearest rock :!: I will wait a while before posting the photo, for his sake.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
By Hamish do you mean the Amish, as in Pennsylvania and Ohio? No worries about asking stupid questions. There are no such things as stupid questions.

I agree that wood finishing here leaves much to be desired. Then again, I am not so sure if Western wood finishing techniques would hold up very well here in Bali. This climate is BRUTAL to wood, not to mention the ferocious termites.
 

Boo

New Member
Aug 11, 2006
28
0
1
Umalas, Bali
:oops: I must have been having a blonde moment :oops:

Yes the Amish in Ohio.

Now, thats an very interesting topic, "Ferocious Termites"

I have heard its a big problem. Any suggestions for the best treatment for the ferocious termites. :?:
 

DCC

Member
May 27, 2006
352
0
16
Br Abangan, Tegallelang
Welcome Boo –

Sorry Roy I have to take exception to your dismissal of Western building professionals here as painting all as one and quite biased. You recently praised the work of Bert, yes? And he is Balinese, no he is not. And as indicated you’re not a builder or a developer - not an expert. I, on the other hand, have more than 20 years experience as a residential building contractor, along with a design degree from a noted university program. Yes, your arguments may hold water on an individual basis but, I believe, you missed the mark in general.

Anyone doing anything here will want to work with locals whenever possible, of course. Balinese are master craftsmen as builders, absolutely, and at other artistic skills, which is why the international design community has such a love affair with the island.

I will counter with following as to why a Westerner may want work with same on part or all of their project:

1. The Western Design Professional – Pick up any of the many coffee table books on Bali dreamhomes and checkout how many of the featured homes are designed by locals, almost none. Bali is both a birth place and a proving ground for definitive Asia-inspired tropical homes, and this Bali-style movement is and was spearheaded by Westerners. The Bali villa holiday home is a Western concept. And Bali’s most famous practicing landscape designer – Australian. And every villa having inspired another Westerner to want one of their own has most likely involved the same. Every villa built by a westerner has used western input, that of the owner. Your home, Roy, unless you gave your charges zero input, was both designed and developed by a Westerner, you.

My point ought to be plain by now, different wants by different people. While there are many locals obviously skilled in all trades, talented Westerners bring something of their own to the table, the most important being the understanding, and thus command, of an intangible subtle nuance of both look and feel. That skill is the one constant shared innately by all talented designers, their gift, but it also a practiced skill developed over time by exposure and use, and influenced by culture. That cultural understanding of wants and needs and how to deliver them is precisely where Indonesians, and or Balinese, understandably often come up short - problems with scale and proportion (countertops that hit your knees!) and the over use of applied decoration are just a couple of common problems.

To advocate dismissal of Western professionals in a field of practice they developed – the design of the tropical dreamhome - is questionable at best.


2. The Western Building Contractor – Cost more, of course! Get different, and, more importantly, what you need, you should. Contractors the world over are often lumped in with lawyers when it comes to reputation, but to argue that a Bule builder will not deliver the goods is, again, a rather broad paint stroke. Understanding the clients needs and wants and then being their advocate on the myriad issues of specifications, material selection, quality control and overall supervision is what any good builder should do, and also where Westerners have their unique input and influence. Again, Westerners spearheaded international building standards on the island, and those desired by the same when building their dream villa. Simply as a matter of economics locals have forever been focused on cost alone as opposed to practicing a cost/benefit approach, and it shows. For example, the beautiful little home I rent here in Batu Belig is only 10 years old, but sadly it looks as if it were 100. Massive settlement cracks are the result of a foundation of soft limestone and mortar sans any concrete piers, sporting floor/wall beams undersized and under reinforced, all, most likely, depending on sand with high soil content. Had the owner, my friend, shelled out what at the time may have been a few more $ this home would appear as new, now its value falls everyday.

To many lay-persons construction details are an unknown, how do they know when or where to accept this or that, the answer is they are often unqualified to represent themselves on-site and don’t have any official building inspector representing them. Also, if the client is unable to be on-site all the time, communication issues may arise that may best be served by Western representation. And as far as a Bule contractor paying more for materials, that should not be an issue if he or she knows their way through the woods.

Unless Westerners desiring to build a villa here are well versed in matters of design, construction, local practice, and they speak the language, I would highly recommend the use of Western professionals, if only to consult with once or on a as needed basis. Too often Bules come here then blinded by the comparatively low cost of building act carelessly as their own architect/construction manager and end up with home proudly displaying poor planning and execution. I, for one, will compare my home, soul for soul, with any other, for that is what I have for years strived to impart in all I create. In addition, I consciously make efforts to utilize thoughtful design, material, and technique as to ensure a home of enduring good taste and value

The Balinese are masters of design and construction, historically for themselves, and those Westerners practicing here and worth their weight duly respect them. And certainly after years of working in concert with the West, local design and construction practices have been influenced accordingly. But in short, is it not questionable advice to encourage others to outright dismiss the very people who invented, and continue to refine, exactly what it is they desire.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
Your home, Roy, unless you gave your charges zero input, was both designed and developed by a Westerner, you.

DCC, I'd like to be able to take credit for designing and developing both of our houses and our gallery, The Mood Studio in Kedewatan, but I can't. The credit for all of that goes to my brother in law, I Wayan Tagel a very highly regarded Balinese architect, interior designer and builder as well as a highly accomplished painter and scultptor.

He was educated and degreed at both ITB in Bandung as well as ASRI in Yogyakarta. After his work for the Amandari resort in Sayan he was given credit for co-founding a school of architecture known as the Balinese International School, as he draws some inspiration for his designs from other international styles and merges them into the classic Balinese style.

I agree with the concept of “to each his own” and I understand fully the idea that many folks who chose to build in Bali will want to work with a foreign designer/architect/builder/contractor, whatever. I am not such a person. As I already said, for me, I can tell a Western developed project the moment I walk into it. Most of those houses feel to me not a bit different than many of the resort hotels here...no spirit, and no soul. As an avid collector of art all my life, I have always demanded to live in a home which itself is a work of art. I am very fortunate that my wife’s sister just happens to be married to Wayan Tagel. It seems, as with many talented Balinese artists, that everything he touches becomes art...and his building projects are no exception.

As with all manner of art appreciation, it all boils down to a matter of taste.
And with taste, there is no accounting.
 

shebitme

Member
Oct 2, 2005
49
0
6
Fremantle
Really interesting posts here. And building in Bali is an exciting thing to consider.

We are also caught in the conundrum of Balinese V Western builder. We had been thinking that a Western builder would have more understanding about what a Western home owner actually wants. But at this stage we are pretty sure that we have a fairly clear idea of what we want, and need help with materials and logistics. The Balinese builder we have spoken to has been doing the Western Villa development projects anyway, and we are confident of getting western standard construction, hopefully with Balinese flair.

Regardless, we will be present during the construction period. Here in Australia the builders we have used have stuffed up things, mostly by not looking at/respecting the plans. But the contracts here do give good recourse, and I'm not sure if you'd get the same in Bali.
 

DCC

Member
May 27, 2006
352
0
16
Br Abangan, Tegallelang
Wish you the best Bite. Guess your like the other 99.9 percent of us without the benifit of an architect/builder bother-in-law.

You raise an important issue - failure by the builder to perform, either in a minor or, God forbid, a major way (not neccessarily a matter of Nationality, eh!). But the owner's ability to enforce performance or avenues of recouse are close to non existant here, requiring contracts to be based on trust. So whoever you contract with you should feel comfortable with them and be sure of the same from their previous clients or work.

If you are not well versed in technique you may consider hiring an assistant to help you supervise - a Bule, Balinese, Indonesian, whoever. As a contractor, I have a site manager working on my behalf and sub the labor out, prinipally to one crew. I know what I want and how to achieve it from my Western experience (although I am pretty well versed in local ways), my manager helps us work it out. Interestingly, my crew has not built to the standards I employ but was chosen because, despite the modest nature of his previous houses, his craftsmanship was superior (as in excellent) to others I considered, and that speaks volumes about someones intent. The result is that each time I visit my current project I leave wearing a smile of satisfaction. Problems? A few of course, but as craftsman myself I cant help but share in the pride that is evident everything they do.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
But the owner's ability to enforce performance or avenues of recouse are close to non existant here, requiring contracts to be based on trust. So whoever you contract with you should feel comfortable with them and be sure of the same from their previous clients or work.

DCC raises a VERY good point. The fact is, if you are western, and without an Indonesian partner or spouse, then your legal recourse against another westerner is “slim to none” in the various Balinese regency courts. Bules screwing other bules is not of much interest here.

On the other hand, if you’ve been “screwed” by a western builder or contractor, and you ARE either married, or in partnership with an Indonesian, you likely could make matters (legal and otherwise) VERY difficult for that westerner.

For me, the best scenario is being married, or in partnership with an Indonesian, when some form of restitution for violation of contract with another Indonesian is needed. There, the courts can be most useful, but in all likelihood, your dispute would never reach the courts, as over hundreds of cups of coffee, and calm discussion, mutual resolution would be achieved.